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Discussion: Mines |
Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
|  Posted: 2008-05-29 12:14
Two uses for a mine:
1) Natural Chokepoints - Gates. Going through a gate should result in a random heading and placement from the gate (50-250 gu) .... This would make it harder for a minelayer to insta-pop something.
2) Knowing where the enemy is going. The only other time you can use a mine is if you fly in front of another ship and mash the M button. Which results in weapons up your aft.
Conflicting Suggestions:
Make mines *really* strong, but only able to spawn 10 max.
Pros:
Less nouns
Requires skill to place mines
Cons:
People who get insta-killed bitch
Dreads might get angry at wee destroyer doing so much damage to them
Make mines weak, but able to rapidly spawn them (2 or 3 at a time from each gadget) with a high spawn limit (100,150)
Pros:
Mine spam = pretty
Requires less skill to place mines
Cons:
More nouns
Running in front of a ship and hitting the M key won't do much.
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2008-05-29 13:51
I feel like most of the concerns expressed in this thread have had solutions proposed or reasons explained as for why those concerns should not be so concerning - including gate mining. Rejecting the mines just because gates can be mined seems silly.
Random exit points would be helpful.. though I took a cursory look at them and it seems like they should already exit you at a random vector. Still, seems an easy solution to limit the effectiveness of mines. Having a lower max limit would help too, so nobody would be able to put more than a mine or two in any given spot if they want to cover a lot of the space around a gate (to get someone leaving at a random direction).
It might be possible to limit their laying near a gate as well, but then the question arises of whether all weapons should be forbidden, or just mines. Ie, should we just add safe zones, or edit the way mines work?
And as mentioned, to lay mines on someone while moving is difficult and causes severe exposure issues; give miners weak rear armor/shields and that problem is more or less solved.
Also, a fix on EMP issues wouldn't be a bad thing. Or somehow making EMP separate from the overall damage numbers.
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Supertrooper
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: March 18, 2004
Posts: 1895
From: Maryland, U.S.A
| Posted: 2008-05-29 14:23
Quote:
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On 2008-05-29 08:46, BackSlash *Jack* wrote:
Mines are a problem simply because people can sit at a gate and spam them for 10 minutes, and get a garanteed insta-kill the moment something oops through.
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Which is why I propose a radius around gates to where you cannot place mines.
Gives them time to show up on the persons screen, and for them to avoid them.
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Bitopherous
1st Lieutenant
Joined: June 07, 2004
Posts: 264
From: Bottom of the pile
| Posted: 2008-05-29 14:57
I could sit in the MV now for [granted, a bit more than...] 10 minutes and spam mines and injure someone coming through the gate.
If you dont want to be mined going through the gate, long jump, WH, find some alternate route. Thats a minor problem.
As far as rear weak armor on a miner: wouldnt it make sense to have it twice as thick? If the mines are shooting out the back, isnt that where a ship builder would stack the armor up? Obviously, you dont want it super think, but weak armor doesnt make sense to me.
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Little Pet Slinki
Admiral
Joined: April 16, 2006
Posts: 836
From: United Kingdom, South West.
| Posted: 2008-05-29 15:32
Personal Opinion to me is to have mines OP, but with a proximity code, so that you cannot stack mines, they have to a certain gu apart, 3 or 4 mines should be enough if all on one side to hull it, however itll be very hard since destroyer can move and PD mines, however the skill needed for lets say, dread class, is bigger, therefore negates the need to think about mines and how you and your fleet are going to counteract them.
Could also lead to having mines deployable around SY planets, (Maybe making bombing TOO hard, but its an idea) or even add it as a planet building function, new Type 4 Defence Idea, Mines.
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_x$witchBladex_ [1.480 Fanboy]
Grand Admiral
Joined: February 26, 2003
Posts: 849
From: Upstate New York
| Posted: 2008-05-29 16:11
Quote:
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On 2008-05-28 13:09, Bitopherous wrote:
Mines were once a viable weapon in DS, for offense AND defense. A minefield was something an invading fleet had to look out for. They added tension to invasions. Now, they dont matter. Can we get the power upped again? If you do not want them to be used as an offensive weapon (even though thats valid...), can we add a timer to the fuse? If there is a timer on the mines before they become active, that would help curb their use on offense.
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I agree completely. Good way to stop bombers. And as you stated before, 50 mines is WAY too much.
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Also, make them visible only with a scanner or within a certain range. The ECM/ECCM method removes one of the two uses for a scanner. With enough ECM, you could hide a mine no matter what the enemy does, and vice versa with ECCM.
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Mines should be visible only when you are close. And I mean within 50gu close. Unless a scanner is used obviously.
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On 2008-05-28 13:59, Axianda wrote:
the only fear that i have is that a mine will be an instant kill machine.
not damage wise but system wise.. the old version a Kluth destroyer *caveman!!* was able to cripple my AD with just a few mines and flying over me and dump em on me.
its not funny to sit there at 99% hull and no systems nor any chance to get them running again.
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Remove complete system damage. Only have it damage local areas like EMP cannons.
Quote:
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On 2008-05-29 08:46, BackSlash *Jack* wrote:
Mines are a problem simply because people can sit at a gate and spam them for 10 minutes, and get a garanteed insta-kill the moment something oops through.
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Is it possible to design it so people come out of jump gates in a random direction? Makes it a guessing game. And besides, it makes people consider long jumping aka TEAMWORK.
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My Opinion
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1.480 style worked. 6 mines did enough damage. 50 mines was an instant kill, as it should be. No dread should survive a field of 50 mines and be able to walk away thinking a mosquito flew into him. Make mines deadly.
Also, with this more ships will gain use. ICC Mine Layer, UGTO Mine Frigate, K'luth Instars.
However, in order for this to work, my personal feeling is that mines should not be scaled to hull size for their damage. The only way mines should be scaled are for ammo amount (and possible tweaked damage range).
AM - Deadliest towards hull/armor damage
Nuke - A bit of each
EMP - Kills systems (to an extent)
(to be honest I don't even know what the difference really was between nuke/am mines other than damage amount in .480)
-Switch
[ This Message was edited by: _x$witchBladex_ the Rum Loving Pirate on 2008-05-29 18:11 ]
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doda *EP5 no longer exception...*
Grand Admiral
Joined: December 11, 2005
Posts: 1012
From: happy land
| Posted: 2008-05-29 17:17
mines give a purpose for scout class ships, cannon folder
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Hellza - Dark Master
Fleet Admiral
Praetorian Wolves
Joined: June 06, 2004
Posts: 498
| Posted: 2008-05-29 21:31
I like the idea with the nonstackable per slot one. cant have anymore then 4? sitting together with say 50gu?
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_x$witchBladex_ [1.480 Fanboy]
Grand Admiral
Joined: February 26, 2003
Posts: 849
From: Upstate New York
| Posted: 2008-05-30 16:10
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On 2008-05-28 16:31, Axianda wrote:
about that Jack,
what if a gate would emit some form of pulsewave as a built in safety measure to make sure its cleared once every few minutes or so.
or would that kill the server?
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If you want to get technical behind it, only ICC Gates would be able to do this. Plus, what about missile combat that may be occurring around one side of a gate, or even fighters for that matter? Remember, some gates are close enough to planets to start bomb runs or fighter stacks
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2008-05-30 18:21
Quote:
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On 2008-05-29 16:11, _x$witchBladex_ the Rum Loving Pirate wrote:
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My Opinion
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1.480 style worked. 6 mines did enough damage. 50 mines was an instant kill, as it should be. No dread should survive a field of 50 mines and be able to walk away thinking a mosquito flew into him. Make mines deadly.
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There should NEVER, EVER be anything that can kill a dread or station instantly. Things that cost that much prestige, should never be able to be killed by a single ship, that's a class (or more) below them.
It's just not going to happen.
Sorry.
50+ mines in any area is going to cause issues on the server, and we don't want that. I think the way we'll probably go with them for now, is just using them in adition to a ships normal weapons (remove a few weapons, put a few mines on). That way they can be used in ADDITION to your current weapons, and used in more of a defencive role.
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash *Jack* on 2008-05-30 18:23 ]
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Axianda The Royal
Fleet Admiral
Terra Squadron
Joined: November 20, 2001
Posts: 4273
From: Axianda
| Posted: 2008-05-30 19:01
kinda of an oddball here, but after watching the Star Wars Clone wars movie an idea popped in my atm a bit tipsy head.
Boba Fett uses in the movie some sort of "Charge" he drops it like a mine but it explodes after a few seconds.
would that be an idea for some sort of mine? or a new mine class/type?
its more combat oriented since it requires some degree of skilled deployment.
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DarkKnight08
Grand Admiral
Joined: July 28, 2006
Posts: 7
From: Within the Void between the Past and the Future...
| Posted: 2008-05-30 21:59
Not sure if a timer would make much of a difference when you take into account detonationg mines manually (Shift-M).
As for the "over-awesomesness" of minefields - mines hurt; they're supposed to hurt. Due to the scales of the various ships, Dreads and Stations will not die to a minefield - though a fair amount of damage should occur to Dreads.
Cruisers should be moderately damaged (hull damage); destroyers severely damaged (better call up the supply ships); frigates and scouts - go "splody-boom". This is when they take a battering from a full onslaught of mines. What constitutes a "full" load of mines obviously needs to be resolved - but the real question is "What are we suppose to compare the damage of a mine to?"
Now, I'm sure some witty Dev is going to say that it's going to be somewhere between a pulse beam and a torpedo...
But isn't that the REAL issue. How many torps from a cruiser will get to the hull of another cruiser (UGTO cruisers because they are the balanced of the factions). Then equate the numbers of torp/dmg to mine/dmg.
Too much damage? Reduce the number of mines carried, as well as increase the recharge rate.
Just like everything else that we have tested and are testing (kudos to the poor wretches that are actually making a difference in Beta - read Devs and Players), we don't want uber-weapons (YES we do - but only on OUR faction) but we also don't want impotent ones (YES we do - but only on OTHER factions).
Mines should be an effective way of deterring and damaging the enemy; and if all else fails - send a Dread through the gate to clear the way - just remember to e-jump when the 5 enemy Dreads sitting on the other side try to alpha you after you've hit the minefield...
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_x$witchBladex_ [1.480 Fanboy]
Grand Admiral
Joined: February 26, 2003
Posts: 849
From: Upstate New York
| Posted: 2008-05-30 22:27
Quote:
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On 2008-05-30 18:21, BackSlash *Jack* wrote:
There should NEVER, EVER be anything that can kill a dread or station instantly. Things that cost that much prestige, should never be able to be killed by a single ship, that's a class (or more) below them.
It's just not going to happen.
Sorry.
50+ mines in any area is going to cause issues on the server, and we don't want that. I think the way we'll probably go with them for now, is just using them in adition to a ships normal weapons (remove a few weapons, put a few mines on). That way they can be used in ADDITION to your current weapons, and used in more of a defencive role.
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Jack, honestly I read what I wrote and realized I wasn't clear. What I meant was that many ships should not be able to survive, and that dreads/stations should be pretty badly injured.
Consider anything sci-fi related, and then think about any in which mine fields may have been used. No one with a dreadnought class ship would simply say, "Onward! What are these mines? It's like playing soccer!"
So to alter what I said, a mine field of a substantial amount(aka an entire load dropped) should:
Instant kill ------------------- Scout, Frigates, Destroyers
Cripple ---------------------- Cruisers
Significantly Damage ------ Dreadnoughts
Some Damage ------------- Stations
[ This Message was edited by: _x$witchBladex_ the Rum Loving Pirate on 2008-05-30 22:28 ]
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doda *EP5 no longer exception...*
Grand Admiral
Joined: December 11, 2005
Posts: 1012
From: happy land
| Posted: 2008-05-30 23:58
Quote:
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On 2008-05-30 18:21, BackSlash *Jack* wrote:
Quote:
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On 2008-05-29 16:11, _x$witchBladex_ the Rum Loving Pirate wrote:
------------------
My Opinion
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1.480 style worked. 6 mines did enough damage. 50 mines was an instant kill, as it should be. No dread should survive a field of 50 mines and be able to walk away thinking a mosquito flew into him. Make mines deadly.
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There should NEVER, EVER be anything that can kill a dread or station instantly. Things that cost that much prestige, should never be able to be killed by a single ship, that's a class (or more) below them.
It's just not going to happen.
Sorry.
50+ mines in any area is going to cause issues on the server, and we don't want that. I think the way we'll probably go with them for now, is just using them in adition to a ships normal weapons (remove a few weapons, put a few mines on). That way they can be used in ADDITION to your current weapons, and used in more of a defencive role.
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash *Jack* on 2008-05-30 18:23 ]
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just because you fly an expensive ship doesnt mean you shouldn't die. Flying an expensive ship should be a risk at the same time giving rewards. Allowing dreads to be be killed with mines is perfictally ok. So people dont go im in a dread i can be careless and run around without a worry
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2008-05-31 03:00
Dreads are larger, and are more at risk of hitting mines - that's their downside. I don't want to see ANYTHING in the game removing anywhere near half of their armour in one go. Considering how much these things cost to lose - it's just not fair.
Players do not like dying to something they have no chance to avoid.
Dying to 10 enemy ships - fair deal, you were outnumbered.
Dying to 1 enemy ship (thats several classes below yours), because of mines - not a fair deal. If this happens, we'll be right back with the ED/PD problem once again.
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