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Discussion: Mines |
Bitopherous
1st Lieutenant
Joined: June 07, 2004
Posts: 264
From: Bottom of the pile
|  Posted: 2008-05-28 13:09
As of now, mines are severely underpowered. They simply do not work, and are no longer a viable option for offense, defense, or anything else.
How they currently work: Laying a cluster of mines (the total of mines that come out when you press "M") does nothing. Laying the entire load of mines a ship carries and having another ship drive over them doesnt do much more, but at least the damage is noticeable. How viable is that as a strategy, though? When will a minelayer ever have a chance to lay a clump of 50 mines, and have an enemy drive directly over them? And with the ICC minelayer dessie losing a mine slot, they become an even more irrelevant weapon choice.
Mines were once a viable weapon in DS, for offense AND defense. A minefield was something an invading fleet had to look out for. They added tension to invasions. Now, they dont matter. Can we get the power upped again? If you do not want them to be used as an offensive weapon (even though thats valid...), can we add a timer to the fuse? If there is a timer on the mines before they become active, that would help curb their use on offense.
Also, make them visible only with a scanner or within a certain range. The ECM/ECCM method removes one of the two uses for a scanner. With enough ECM, you could hide a mine no matter what the enemy does, and vice versa with ECCM.
What does the playerbase think of mines from: the past version, the present version, and what do you all want to see for them in the future? Post any and all of your thoughts here, and perhaps we can get them back to a working weapon in the game.
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Leviatan
Cadet
Joined: April 22, 2005
Posts: 186
| Posted: 2008-05-28 13:54
I liked mines the way they were in 1482. Not too powerful except for maybe the EMP effect on the nuclear mines, while still strong enough to be the kind of thing you dont want to drive into during combat.
I have always despised the thought of a large cloud of mines that do little damage, because it probably adds up the lag on the metaverse, and is a little stupid as a concept.
Less mines, stronger mines in my opinion!
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Axianda The Royal
Fleet Admiral
Terra Squadron
Joined: November 20, 2001
Posts: 4273
From: Axianda
| Posted: 2008-05-28 13:59
the only fear that i have is that a mine will be an instant kill machine.
not damage wise but system wise.. the old version a Kluth destroyer *caveman!!* was able to cripple my AD with just a few mines and flying over me and dump em on me.
its not funny to sit there at 99% hull and no systems nor any chance to get them running again.
that is the only fear i have at the moment.
as for the future perhaps make a mine device work like a build unit. it deploys a field of them overtime. wait 10 sec and you have a 250-500Gu radius field that lasts 15-30 min.
different fields can be made this way. an ECM/ECCM field. turret fields..
heck maybe even a severely gimped resupply field for all i care.
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Leviatan
Cadet
Joined: April 22, 2005
Posts: 186
| Posted: 2008-05-28 14:06
Quote:
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On 2008-05-28 13:59, Axianda wrote:
the only fear that i have is that a mine will be an instant kill machine.
not damage wise but system wise.. the old version a Kluth destroyer *caveman!!* was able to cripple my AD with just a few mines and flying over me and dump em on me.
its not funny to sit there at 99% hull and no systems nor any chance to get them running again.
that is the only fear i have at the moment.
as for the future perhaps make a mine device work like a build unit. it deploys a field of them overtime. wait 10 sec and you have a 250-500Gu radius field that lasts 15-30 min.
different fields can be made this way. an ECM/ECCM field. turret fields..
heck maybe even a severely gimped resupply field for all i care.
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I agree with the system damage thing. Generally I think that everything that can instantly and immediatily cripple a ship equal or larger than the attacker, is out of balance. More damage is good, more pace to combat, wont degenerate into a 30 minute destroyer slugfest, but instant kill is BAD, BAD BAD.
I was myself revolving this thought in my mind of renaming the current mines into combat mines with some adjustments, and implementing a new type of mine that can only be deployed from dedicated minelayer ships, that last for several hours at a time and deal substantial but not immediatily lethal damage.
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Rhiawhyn Zerinth
Fleet Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: October 31, 2005
Posts: 257
From: I.C.C Deep space refueling station
| Posted: 2008-05-28 14:34
Quote:
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On 2008-05-28 13:59, Axianda wrote:
the only fear that i have is that a mine will be an instant kill machine.
not damage wise but system wise.. the old version a Kluth destroyer *caveman!!* was able to cripple my AD with just a few mines and flying over me and dump em on me.
its not funny to sit there at 99% hull and no systems nor any chance to get them running again.
that is the only fear i have at the moment.
as for the future perhaps make a mine device work like a build unit. it deploys a field of them overtime. wait 10 sec and you have a 250-500Gu radius field that lasts 15-30 min.
different fields can be made this way. an ECM/ECCM field. turret fields..
heck maybe even a severely gimped resupply field for all i care.
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Quote:
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I was myself revolving this thought in my mind of renaming the current mines into combat mines with some adjustments, and implementing a new type of mine that can only be deployed from dedicated minelayer ships, that last for several hours at a time and deal substantial but not immediatily lethal damage.
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Combine this.. keep the current mine setup for "combat" mines that do around the same damage as 3-4 torpedos of the same level, then add the minefield build device thing... engis cannot create minefields, however, minelayers cannot place turrets (turrets would be, more or less, platforms that are small and have one or two weapons with an aux gen... they MIGHT have armor for the heavy ones but otherwise they are just targets to shoot at... or to distract enamy ships).
If you go by the minfield build device... have it so it acts as an interdictor... when active you start "placing" mines, you cant move or the mines at the back end of the field vanish and new ones cant be placed while you are on the move... this way you have to wait there for ships to enter the field.
The mines in this mode would be about 80+ gu apart and do a good fair bit of damage, no it wont instakill or disable in one hit, however, flying at full speed WILL kill you. if you hit a mine.. you beter hope you can stop and or shoot down the others before you eat more than 8 or 9 of them, as 8-10 mines of that type would cripple a dread.
There is an alternative... a form of device that, like what i stated above, must have you stationary to work corectly, HOWEVER, insted of having mines in the area, have it do damage to enamys in the area based on the speed, example a scout flys in at 10gu/s and ends up getting killed, however the scout was able to reach the center, if a dread were to move at top speed into that field.. it would be badly damaged, but not dead by the time it hits the center.
in otherwords that second minefield would be verry close to an interdictor but above a set seed you take damage (so you can still get in there and kill the minelayer... and due to the size of the field if you detect him/her its as good as dead if it doesnt hightail it out of there, ecm increases this set speed as the mines are unable to detect you, or detect as easily and thusly detonate when you fly past em, thus lowering the damage you take and increasing the speed that you can fly in the field.
the second minefield option is far beter server load wise, as it wont spawn and remove mines at random in the field. this one just deals damage to whomever is in the field based on the speed, you could make it spawn mines near the ship and that equates to more or less, more mines detonating in a shorter ammount of time, thusly, more damge.
The minefield device option is something you need to use carefully, you cant camp a gate with it as the gates require a set ammount of space around them to keep things like mines from gating and detonating due to getting out of range of the host ship (around 350 gu from the gate cant be mined so you have to place yourself in a way that enamy ships end up flying into it, or beter yet. jumping into it and getting NEARLY killed, as most of the mines cant detonate fast enough to hurt a jumping ship.. some do however and you take damage.. just never fatal.. more like 80% armor damage or so ((or shields in the case of icc)).
Anyway im out of ideas for mines D: i was going off of Axiandias idea so... yea... : for the realy simple version.. have non combat mines be unable to arm at about 80+ gus from eachother, and add a 5 to 6 second timer for when they were placed to when they detonate, this solves the stacking issue and thusly you can have stronger mines ;P.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2008-05-28 15:57
They're last on the list of changes to be made before 1.484 goes life.
Problem is, mines can be far, far too powerful. If we up them even a small amount, it can have insane affects.
I'd rather have them slightly underpowered right now, than way overpowered (meaning someone could spend 10 minutes spamming mines on a gate, and then just waiting for an insta kill).
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Axianda The Royal
Fleet Admiral
Terra Squadron
Joined: November 20, 2001
Posts: 4273
From: Axianda
| Posted: 2008-05-28 16:31
about that Jack,
what if a gate would emit some form of pulsewave as a built in safety measure to make sure its cleared once every few minutes or so.
or would that kill the server?
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Bitopherous
1st Lieutenant
Joined: June 07, 2004
Posts: 264
From: Bottom of the pile
| Posted: 2008-05-28 16:54
Mines werent overpowered before. Now, they are severely underpowered.
If someone took the time to lay a full load of mines at a gate, how is that a detriment to the game? If they make a minefield to kill ships, isnt that the exact way mines ought to be used? Sure, it may suck driving through a gate and exploding, but it also sucks to get dictored, it sucks to get hit with core weapons, it sucks to hit planets because you werent looking around during a fight...lots of things kinda suck when they happen to you.
Two things to prevent mining gates (which is as viable tactic as I have seen in DS. Why wouldnt a faction defend the access point to the system they are attacking?) 1) Make the points where a ship comes out of a gate random, instead of the usual exact same spot for every ship. 2) Safezone the gates for a small area, maybe 50 gus out from where a ship comes through the gate at a stop.
Dont leave mines disabled simply because there are players who insist on chasing minelaying ships closely, or not being situationally aware enough to check for mines at a gate or planet.
Bring back effective mining!
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Supertrooper
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: March 18, 2004
Posts: 1895
From: Maryland, U.S.A
| Posted: 2008-05-28 17:54
I look at mines in Darkspace as you would in naval battles.
If a battleship where to run over a mine (or in DS, a cluster) it should cripple it. Not kill it. If a Cruiser where to run over the same ammount, it would also be crippled. But anything below that would be doomed.
I don't think mining gates now would be too good, maybe a sort of 'radius' around the gates to where Mines can be layed. Thus giving players time to react to the mines, isntead of the insta-death now.
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Axianda The Royal
Fleet Admiral
Terra Squadron
Joined: November 20, 2001
Posts: 4273
From: Axianda
| Posted: 2008-05-28 18:27
the only thing that i am fearing is that a fast minelayer type vessel will fly over a slower target and drop it so that it cannot evade *granted a viable option* but will 1shot cripple a ship.
for the rest... mines mines mines.. dont we have scanners for those buggers?
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Bitopherous
1st Lieutenant
Joined: June 07, 2004
Posts: 264
From: Bottom of the pile
| Posted: 2008-05-28 19:50
Quote:
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On 2008-05-28 18:27, Axianda wrote:
the only thing that i am fearing is that a fast minelayer type vessel will fly over a slower target and drop it so that it cannot evade *granted a viable option* but will 1shot cripple a ship.
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Most of the ships with the big offensive weapons are focused on front arcs. If a little minelaying ship wants to take the chance of running that close in front of something that may potentially kill it with an alpha, why take that option away? It adds some excitement to the game, and gives a tradeoff for the little guys.**
**Im not advocating a "Press 'M' and ship goes boom scenario." But there needs to be a reward for that little ship taking the risk, or he will never take it. Life is, after all, about incentives...
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Ospolos
Grand Admiral
Joined: January 31, 2004
Posts: 567
From: ON, CANADA
| Posted: 2008-05-29 06:18
Quote:
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On 2008-05-28 19:50, Bitopherous wrote:
If a little minelaying ship wants to take the chance of running that close in front of something that may potentially kill it with an alpha, why take that option away? It adds some excitement to the game, and gives a tradeoff for the little guys
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Exactly,
As I see it now, if scanners work, mine fields shouldn't be a problem, as long as they dont have a blast radius enough to do harm while point-Defensing. A mine-field spotted by scanners wouldnt be a problem. As for EMP damage why not just lower it, and since mine laying ships are small ships, they run the risk of being hurt badly or popped fast if they get to close. As for gates.. This is a game, to maintain balance you can always make mines not lay-able while within x amount of GUs to a gate, like 500gu, that way it gives ships coming in a chance to scanner them and PD them. Basing games on realism creates un-balance. No insta-deaths, no crazy system damage, easy to locate mines if fitted to do so, decent damage, overall a balance to mines.
EMP -> Biggest radius, most sys dmg (not significantly), least base dmg
AM -> Medium radius, medium sys dmg, medium base dmg
Nuke -> Smallest radius, least sys dmg, most base dmg
or just scrap the radius changes.
[ This Message was edited by: Ospolos on 2008-05-29 06:28 ]
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Hellza - Dark Master
Fleet Admiral
Praetorian Wolves
Joined: June 06, 2004
Posts: 498
| Posted: 2008-05-29 07:25
what happened to scouting?
sent a scout through a jumpgate to be sure its safe to go through if you feel that its been mined.
if no one is wanting to go througha jump, then get a supply and the fleet just jumps to the next system. avoiding the gates. it cant be that hard now?.
as ships are right now, dreads have gotten alot of power as well as stations. if a mine dessy comes withen range, they will get tractored. alphaed, and if they lay their mines, they are going to get hurt by them to. if your stupid enough to do that then be my guest  .
i am 100% with bito.
power up mines, but not the case that it would insta pop a dread.
if its that bad, then lower the class of mines, to just frigates, with cr requirements then?..
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2008-05-29 08:46
Mines are a problem simply because people can sit at a gate and spam them for 10 minutes, and get a garanteed insta-kill the moment something oops through.
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Creeping Shadow
Grand Admiral
Joined: January 22, 2003
Posts: 261
| Posted: 2008-05-29 10:09
no matter what you will do. as long as there is no safe zone. a 'whole' fleet of e.g mine dessies, WILL insta pop any thing that comes through.
so weaking them, may or may not work at all.
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