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Planned Ship Changes for 1.484 (UGTO) |
Kano
Cadet
Joined: February 22, 2004
Posts: 20
|  Posted: 2007-07-13 19:22
Lith,
Thanks for the explanation of missile hit rate mechanics. Increase missile turning speed, then, or tune them as Jack offers. We can work out what needs to be done during combat testing which I haven't seen enough of so far.
Jack,
It might be a good idea to announce on the regular server a weekly combat testing period or something of that nature, in order to get large numbers of players onto the beta server trying a large variety of ships. Shipyard planets need to be already built so people of appropriate rank can pop out whatever ships they want, as would be the case in the regular mv.
The whole "teamwork" and "pack" motifs are overblown at this scale imo. I don't expect that we will see frigate or scout packs at all. I suspect that destroyer packs will present a credible threat to larger ships, both by their capabilities as well as the qualities of the pilots flying them. Most pilots with any skill won't be flying frigates because they have access to better ships, and any frigate or scout packs you do see will likely be free kills. More likely you will have one or two frigates max, flown by newbs, accompanying a group of big ships, and their purpose will be... free kills.
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Kano
Cadet
Joined: February 22, 2004
Posts: 20
| Posted: 2007-07-13 19:24
"We can throw rocks."
-Mycroft Holmes
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2007-07-13 19:35
Unless they stop being morons attempting to kill things much stronger and far more powerful than them.
@Rob Brilliant. Also though we have to bear in mind that missles are still swappable with other missles.
Now, as I recall in every version I've played except this one, scouts and frigates have always been fodder for larger ships when they get too close.
I mean, theres little difference between then and whats to come.
And people complained then. Because people were stupid and attempted to take things that are bigger and stronger than them one on one, alone.
And they died.
But then they got smart. If they hung around bigger ships and attacked from a distance so that they were not the only target suddenly they could do damage without being the center of attention.
Amazing isnt it? Coupled with a little common sense, a wee 'useless' frigate becomes additional firepower. Not only that, they can take on the smaller ships on their own while the bigger ships are busy dealing with bigger threats.
A lone frigate isn't a threat. Its an annoyance.
We also have to consider that larger ships have a really hard time hidding a scout or a frigate that stays out of beam range. So while the scout or frigate can't damage the dreadnought, neither can the dreadnought effectively damage a scout or frigate.
This is how teamwork gets brought in, and learning to play smart. The only small ships that dont have a chance are the ones that rush in blindly and get themselves on the priority target list - which happens only when they start moronically speeding 20gu in front of a dread.
People, learn that small ships are not effectively useless unless they are alone and trying to take on something much stronger than them. The concept of smaller ships having a "chance" as Kano putting it, was applied in .483 and it made larger ships, such as Dreadnoughts, worthless.
Whats the point of ranking up when a smaller ship has much more survivability than a station? Some might like flying in a small ship, but gone are those days when it stops being a ship of the line, and instead becomes a supporting ship that larger ships may come to rely upon when it comes to fighting a pack of them.
There is such vaunted teamwork in this game, and has been gone for a long time. Its time to learn to work together for once.
-Ent
[ This Message was edited by: Enterprise on 2007-07-13 19:37 ]
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2007-07-13 19:40
They may be rocks to big ships, but those rocks hurt like crazy to smaller ships - and big ships can't get within range to hit smaller ships easily, so you have to rely on your smaller ships to kill them.
You're not really meant to see massive scout/frigate packs to take on dreads. I know you CAN, but like you said, people are going to have bigger and better ships by that time.
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Kano
Cadet
Joined: February 22, 2004
Posts: 20
| Posted: 2007-07-13 20:22
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On 2007-07-13 19:35, Enterprise wrote:
We also have to consider that larger ships have a really hard time hidding a scout or a frigate that stays out of beam range. So while the scout or frigate can't damage the dreadnought, neither can the dreadnought effectively damage a scout or frigate. |
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That's what pjump alphas are for. BDs and CDs and the like are just as good at this as the EADs, Mandies and Siphons. A TC or AC also used to be able to one-shot-kill frigates this way. Sure it takes some skill to pull off, but no amount of skill is going to save even a good frigate pilot's butt.
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The only small ships that dont have a chance are the ones that rush in blindly and get themselves on the priority target list - which happens only when they start moronically speeding 20gu in front of a dread. |
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I only do that in this version 
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People, learn that small ships are not effectively useless unless they are alone and trying to take on something much stronger than them. The concept of smaller ships having a "chance" as Kano putting it, was applied in .483 and it made larger ships, such as Dreadnoughts, worthless. |
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I notice you didn't say cruisers. I happen to think that the frigate-cruiser balance is actually not bad at the moment. The dread-frigate or dread-scout balance, on the other hand, is a bit stupid. Not to mention the dread-destroyer balance which is a much bigger problem imo, especially with PDs and EDs in the mix. Again, even in this version, far more people fly destroyers than frigates or scouts. Did we ever try adding four more armors to dreads and stations or did we bump up against the slot limit? (32 iirc).
Also, even in this version I don't bother trying to solo cruisers and dreads, or even destroyers for that matter, usually. But I do appreciate the ability to hang in there for a while before either my buddies or theirs jump in; I have a chance to soften up some shields and armor and launch some beacons while reporting the enemy position and order of battle. A support role if ever there was one. At the end of the day, even in 483, it's the dreads and cruisers doing the real damage. Teamwork, as you say.
I completely agree that dreads and stations are far too vulnerable compared to small ships, but let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater, please?
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2007-07-13 20:57
On 2007-07-13 20:22, Kano wrote:
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On 2007-07-13 19:35, Enterprise wrote:
We also have to consider that larger ships have a really hard time hidding a scout or a frigate that stays out of beam range. So while the scout or frigate can't damage the dreadnought, neither can the dreadnought effectively damage a scout or frigate. |
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That's what pjump alphas are for. BDs and CDs and the like are just as good at this as the EADs, Mandies and Siphons. A TC or AC also used to be able to one-shot-kill frigates this way. Sure it takes some skill to pull off, but no amount of skill is going to save even a good frigate pilot's butt.
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Frigates need to learn to ejump then. Also - a frigate or scout cannot be pjumped if they stay behind the target. Also, no reasonable dreadnought or cruiser pilot is going to waste their time on a frigate while there are bigger ships trying to kill them.
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People, learn that small ships are not effectively useless unless they are alone and trying to take on something much stronger than them. The concept of smaller ships having a "chance" as Kano putting it, was applied in .483 and it made larger ships, such as Dreadnoughts, worthless. |
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I notice you didn't say cruisers. I happen to think that the frigate-cruiser balance is actually not bad at the moment. The dread-frigate or dread-scout balance, on the other hand, is a bit stupid. Not to mention the dread-destroyer balance which is a much bigger problem imo, especially with PDs and EDs in the mix. Again, even in this version, far more people fly destroyers than frigates or scouts. Did we ever try adding four more armors to dreads and stations or did we bump up against the slot limit? (32 iirc).
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Slot limit is 64. Also - cruisers aren't worthless this version, they work almost as they are intended to, which is why I didnt mention them.
Dreadnoughts on the other hand, suffer from a multitude of problems, from massive energy problems on some ships, glaring armor weaknesses, bad firing arcs, and the fact that level 10 armor is nearly the same on all ships.
People fly smaller ships this version for two reasons. One, less prestige loss from deaths, and two, its much much harder to die in a frigate or destroyer than it is in a cruiser or dreadnought.
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Also, even in this version I don't bother trying to solo cruisers and dreads, or even destroyers for that matter, usually.
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But its possible - even a scout can (and has) killed a Dreadnought.
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But I do appreciate the ability to hang in there for a while before either my buddies or theirs jump in; I have a chance to soften up some shields and armor and launch some beacons while reporting the enemy position and order of battle.
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Which is exactly what a frigate pilot will be able to do. They'll be able to reasonably pelt other frigates, destroyers, and maybe even cruisers to the point they lose something. Again, its about playing smart, a stupid Frigate pilot is going to die.
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A support role if ever there was one. At the end of the day, even in 483, it's the dreads and cruisers doing the real damage. Teamwork, as you say.
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Which is intended I might add, they are as I like to put it, ships of the line.
Frigates aren't.
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I completely agree that dreads and stations are far too vulnerable compared to small ships, but let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater, please?
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The point that you seem to forgetting is that smaller ships CAN hold out, if they are played SMART.
Even in .480, with CL2ks flying around, a frigate pilot survived if he played smart. No, you wont be able to give Dreadnoughts a run for their money and IMO, thats a good thing. Why should Dreadnoughts have even more glaring weaknesses? Personally, why should we discourage their use even more?
They're already slow, they're already hard to turn, they will have weapons which will be lucky to hit anything smaller than a cruiser (sans beams), and on top of all that, cost little less prestige than they do now when you lose one.
So while its all well and good that frigates should be made useful, I don't support them being tanks like this version, which while you aptly declare you are not suggesting, thats the only way they will not immediately die the moment they stay too long in front of a dreadnoughts firing arcs. And the only way to make them 'useful' against bigger ships is to make the bigger ships weaker than they should be.
And who will bother to fly them then?
So honestly, while it would be nice to make them 'more useful', they can't without making everything else less useful. You can't have everything in one ship,
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Kano
Cadet
Joined: February 22, 2004
Posts: 20
| Posted: 2007-07-13 22:31
All good points Ent. But perhaps I should also add that not all frigates and scouts are the same? I would argue that ICC scouts and frigates are indeed tanks, but UGTO frigates aren't quite; and nobody would argue that Kluth scouts and frigates are tanks. UGTO frigates are sturdy enough to last through a fleet battle as long as they are not the primary target, but easily dominated by ICC destroyers if the ICC pilot is persistent. ICC destroyers out-gun, out-turn, and out-jump UGTO frigates, after all, besides being better protected. Mandies and Siphons instapop UGTO frigates but I don't know about the ICC's. Which scout killed which station or dread? ICC sensor scouts mount three torps; that's as much as a UGTO Interceptor, though they have fewer guns, but are more survivable thanks to both their shields, speed, and jump timer. Ironically, the Kluth small ships seem to be the least well armed as well as the least well protected. Nobody flies them at all; even Kluth destroyers are rare.
Anyway, all of this is changed in beta, but without more combat testing, it's impossible to say exactly how. I do look forward to trying it out.
P.S. regarding avoiding pjumps. Of course a pjump can be avoided by staying behind the target; but there are two problems with this. First, transversal velocity at range relative to target is low. Depending on the weapons range that the 484 frigates have it may be possible to find a sweet spot between having too low of a transversal velocity where the dread or cruiser can easily turn to match the orbit of the frigate or scout, and being too close and vulnerable to beams. I'd have to find out if that is viable through testing. Second, this is totally irrelevant in a fleet action. Some happy nugget is guaranteed to think to himself, "Oh look it's Kano firing on a friendly dread! I can kill him in one shot while he's distracted." Pjump-alpha. I would love to inflate my kill ratio by flying a TC, staying out of the action and pjumping ICC or Kluth scouts and frigates while they are engaged. As a frigate myself, I might be lucky enough to hit the ejump in time. More likely I'd fly in circles somewhere out of detection range of the main action and give sitreps to the fleet whether they are appreciated or not. Or, I could go get a bigger ship. Like a TC. But we don't know if any of this would work in 484 yet- I'm going on my experience from prior versions. So, it remains to be seen.
[ This Message was edited by: Kano on 2007-07-13 22:34 ]
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2007-07-14 03:27
ICC shields are broken this version, hence smaller ships can out-tank stations and even dreads
A dread, and cruiser could easily insta pop a frigate in 1.480, and no-one complained. We cannot make frigates hard to kill for dreadnoughts or cruisers:
A) It removes realism. Although this is a sci-fi game, there needs to be a touch of common sense, and there's no reason a dread shouldn't be able to kill a scout or frigate easily. And anyone who's going after smaller ships in a dread should be shot (unless there's nothing else around). Then there's the added point that you get little to no prestige if you're high ranked and in a dread trying to kill smaller ships AND you get no prestige because they have no hull compaired to a big ship.
B) If we add any sort of defence to them, like we see now with their high armor values, they become more useful than larger ships. If smaller ships become more usefult han larger ones, then there's no insentive to actually get prestige to get the bigger ships, and ultimately, people will stop paying if they can fly smaller ships that are just as good at taking damage as the big ones.
As much as you may think it's unfair, it's neccisairy to keep game balance. A dreadnought has way, way more times the armor and firepower - it makes no sense that it can't kill a frigate at point blank. If you're alone and there's no-one else on the battlefield for that dreadnought to focus on, then you shouldn't be trying to take on a dread/fleet on your own - you're going to get killed.
You have got to learn to avoid the big ships, stay out of their range. If you die a few times, then that's fine - it'll teach you that valuable lesson. You should be helping the bigger ships to get the smaller ships, because even 2-3 of them with the help of a dread and a cruiser, will apply much needed damage to take down that ship faster.
Ultimately, there's no prestige in killing smaller ships, bar 1 kill, there's nothing in it for the dread pilot. And anyone who's anyone knows that kills mean absolutely zip when it comes to profiles. It's all about ships damage, and if they want that - they need to go after the big fish, like themselves.
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash *Jack* on 2007-07-14 03:28 ]
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Zharf Acorazado
Fleet Admiral
Rogens Raiders
Joined: August 14, 2006
Posts: 8
| Posted: 2007-07-14 07:54
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On 2007-07-14 03:27, BackSlash *Jack* wrote:
Ultimately, there's no prestige in killing smaller ships, bar 1 kill, there's nothing in it for the dread pilot. And anyone who's anyone knows that kills mean absolutely zip when it comes to profiles. It's all about ships damage, and if they want that - they need to go after the big fish, like themselves.
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Tactical Officer: Captain! Large number of frigates aproaching!
Captain: Pfft. So? Remember the new upgrade's we just got?
*frigates fire at dreadnought with their level 1 rocks. Rocks bounce off hull and cause .001% damage which is quickly repaired)
Frigate Captain: Damnit! Even with 7 frigates we can't even dent him!
Frigate Captain 2: This sucks. I hate being unbsubscribed
Captain: Lt, blow up....*points at a random frigate* that one
Tactical Officer: yes sir!
*The EAD fires a single level 10 cl2k, splitting the ship in half, then in to quarters like a nice neat sandwich*
Captain: Wow I love these new upgrades. How much prestige did I get for that kill?
Prestige Officer: .2, sir
Captain: What?! Why?!
Prestige Officer: Well sir, you, a vice admiral, just killed an ensign in a frigate. Using my Prestige chart here, thats .2 prestige
Captain: So you're telling me If I kill them, I get nothing, and they can't kill me?
Prestige Officer: Actually sir, you lost .2 prestige
Captain: .....let's go see how nerfed bombs are. I'm bored.
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Kano
Cadet
Joined: February 22, 2004
Posts: 20
| Posted: 2007-07-14 13:15
On Realism 
See also the main article Battle of Leyte Gulf#Battle off Samar
Definitely the exception rather than the rule, but the DDs and DEs did last long enough to deal credible damage and drive away a vastly superior IJN fleet. Yamato alone out-displaced all of Taffy 3 put together. I suppose you could say reality has nothing to do with balance, but the bottom line is that, on paper, Center Fleet should have creamed Taffy 3. Yet they did not and the result had nothing to do with being outnumbered by fast impossible-to-hit tanks; it had everything to do with Kurita's interpretation of his situation: that 1) his fleet was scattered, 2) his ships had taken significant damage, 3) he realized that Taffy 3 was not, in fact, the entire 3rd Fleet and that 4) the 3rd Fleet was likely on its way.
That's the kind of action that I would like to see our frigates engaged in. Neither free kills nor ships of the line but tools that, if flown with skill and daring, can damage or disrupt even a significantly stronger enemy enough to delay or force a retreat until reinforcements arrive.
Jack, I know you like the EAD and you know I like the frigates; if you want the game to go back to being Dreadspace I suppose I won't be able to persuade you otherwise. Not to mention that I suspect most players enjoy playing the biggest ships they can get so my opinion is almost certainly in the minority. Thanks for hearing me out, anyway.
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2007-07-14 13:23
An incredibly good argument...however....
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On 2007-07-14 13:15, Kano wrote:
That's the kind of action that I would like to see our frigates engaged in. Neither free kills nor ships of the line but tools that, if flown with skill and daring, can damage or disrupt even a significantly stronger enemy enough to delay or force a retreat until reinforcements arrive.
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Destroyers won the day there, and only because destroyers had a "uber-powerful" weapon that could take down any ship if it got close enough (Torpedeo). Darkspace has nothing of this, for balancing reasons - however, perhaps that would be interesting....frigates having a gun that have to be fired within a dreads CL range to do any damage....- Frigates are even ligther versions of destroyers...back then they were more of patrol and light escort.
I totally agree that right now it looks like this game is heading towards "Dreadspace", but I think it's too early to tell. However, I am also agreeing that a dread should be able to pounce a frigate if the pilot is stupid. But a frigate should be able to run easily if flown correctly
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Kano
Cadet
Joined: February 22, 2004
Posts: 20
| Posted: 2007-07-14 17:34
The article claims 9 DDs and 12 DEs present but it's unclear how many of each type participated in the delaying action. DE Samuel B. Roberts carried two 5-inch guns and exactly 3 torpedoes. Not 3 launchers; 3 torpedoes. Blows my mind every time I think about it. Presumably the other DEs were similarly armed.
The impression I get from reading the accounts is that only a handful of torpedo hits were scored by the DDs and DEs (though all three of Roberts hit Chokai), and none of these hits were solely responsible for the sinkings of three IJN cruisers. Instead, the threat of the torpedoes caused the IJN ships to maneuver out of formation in their attemps to evade. Meanwhile, most of the actual damage dealt by the DDs and DEs to the IJN ships appears to have been done by 5-inch gunfire hitting turret magazines, gun stations or unarmored areas of superstructure. The closest parallel that I can imagine to our DS universe is doing a lot of systems damage, but little to no hull or armor damage.
But I'm probably not the best person to judge whether that should be considered unfair 
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2007-07-14 21:01
Its all a delightful toss-up, its all about how many players choose which is more acceptable.
The problem with making Frigates strong enough to withstand a pjump attack is that a Frigate would need at least 5x the armor on every arc to do it, or totally throw out the standard gadget level system.
Same with weapons.
OR the alternative is to give Dreadnoughts and Cruisers (more) glaring weaknesses to exploit. That is, weaker armor, poorer fireing arcs, more limited laser damage, slower weapon/reload speed, etc.
So its a choice. You get "uber" Frigates (I use the word loosely) and wimpy Cruisers and Dreadnoughts or you get Dreadnoughts and Cruisers as powerful as they're supposed to be and Frigates become nearly absolute lumps of coal alone around larger ships.
its a matter of choices, I certainly know which one I prefer.
However you look at it, its simply not possible to have one class as strong as another without adding some glaring advantages/disadvantages to either class.
And instead of Dreadspace you're all whining about, you get Frigatespace. Or Destroyerspace, or hell even Stationspace. A vast majority of people are much more likely to choose what they see as the easiest possible way to stay alive and still make prestige with as little effort as possible.
Anyone remember CL2k Kluth? Or Sabot Supplies? Or Torpedo MDs? Or ED's/PD's now? All results of that. People naturally choose what is the strongest.
So yeah, people will ikely want to choose Dreadnoughts, which is a poor mistake to start off with.
See, theres a glaring difference between Dreadnoughts of .484 and of pre-.482, and thats prestige loss is significantly higher. Coupled with less armor, not exactly the wisest choice.
So what happens? Personally I see alot of people thinking themselves invincible in these great ships only to watch their prestige gobbled up due to overconfidence and inexperience.
So you'll see alot of people migrating to Cruisers and Destroyers, and I'm afraid smaller ships than that are just support. They aren't 'line ships' and cannot be, not without making the balance more screwy than it already is.
So they get delegated to support, they throw in that extra firepower that while it makes armor a pain in the ass to punch through I doubt it will have much trouble with hull.
Perhaps in some other version where more tactical options are available to players, they may have their own unique role, but unless you're prepared to make compromises of every other class, they're unfortunately, going to be the butt of the fleet.
Which means thankfully Destroyers come at earlier ranks.
-Ent
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2007-07-14 22:58
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On 2007-07-14 21:01, Enterprise wrote:
Anyone remember CL2k Kluth? Or Sabot Supplies? Or Torpedo MDs? Or ED's/PD's now? All results of that. People naturally choose what is the strongest.
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Yeah, except
CL2k K'luth was balanced (they're not disruptors)
Sabot supplies was balanced (Easy to dodge)
Torpedo MD's was balanced (no fire in the rear, get behind it)
ED/PD's......yeah they're just plain broken.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2007-07-14 23:56
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On 2007-07-14 22:58, Fattierob (x = (-b + y) / m) wrote:
Yeah, except
CL2k K'luth was balanced (they're not disruptors)
Sabot supplies was balanced (Easy to dodge)
Torpedo MD's was balanced (no fire in the rear, get behind it)
ED/PD's......yeah they're just plain broken.
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A.) How are destroyers stronger than dreadnoughts balanced?
B.) Tell cruisers and Dreadnoughts that got pounded by sabot supplies that.
C.) Since when did it become balanced to be able to take out a station in less than 20 seconds and Dreadnoughts faster, and unwary cruisers eveb faster, if they didnt keep a dictor around at all times?
-Ent
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