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I'm making a prediction that ICC planets will be overpowered |
MrSparkle
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Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
|  Posted: 2007-03-25 21:41
I'm saying right here on 3/24/2007 that ICC planets will be overpowered in defensiveness if they keep both their planetary shields AND keep their pulse beam defense bases.
Here's the thing: Even in the current version ICC planets are a tough nut to crack without neuts. In 484 with weaker bombs they will be all but impossible compared to UGTO and Kluth planets.
ICC got planetary shields long ago because all 3 factions had the same type lasers for their defense bases. The shield gave ICC more defense than usual, and it worked great back then. Now they have those pulse beam defenses that do such a good job that oftentimes not enough bombs even make it through to take the shield completely down.
I propose that ICC lose pulse beam defense bases if they aren't already gonna lose them, or all 3 factions get their own type of shield. Having both just for ICC is overkill, and I don't know whose idea it was to give them both to begin with. So what that pulse beams don't damage nearby ships like UGTO and Kluth? The primary role of a defense base has always been to defend vs bombs.
I am predicting right here right now that ICC will have too easy a time capturing and defending their planets if nothing is done about this. Not to mention the nightmare caused by ICC neutroning a Kluth planet and building a shield or 2, giving them both heavy offensive bases and a shield for protection. I shudder at the thought since ICC planets will 100% require that bombers fly on top of their bombs and skim the planet to ensure the bombs reach the shield. You won't be able to do that with Kluth defense bases and thus the planet will be virtually uncappable. We won't see this combo often but we will see it.
The shield/pulse beam combo is something that bothered me since it's implementation. I never understood why ICC needed both. I did understand why they needed shields back when all defense bases had the same laser. But to have both? And to both strengthen the shield AND weaken bombs making it even harder to bypass those defenses? AND let ICC keep their bomber dread? If we cannot target a planet's surface diamonds from far away we will have to launch bomb clouds at the center and protect them by flying on top of them, and since splash radius will be so tiny a well-built planet may not suffer any damage at all.
It's gonna be a nightmare to bomb and capture ICC-built planets while ICC will have a fairly easy time bombing and capturing UGTO and Kluth built planets.
Too much, and it will cause a big imbalance. Mark my words: ICC will be the absolute uncontested king of capturing/defending planets and the MV will fall rather quickly into their hands. I don't even need to beta test it to foresee that future. Doesn't matter if a planet can't cause damage to enemy ships if it can't be captured. Replace the pulse beams with standard lasers and don't increase the strength of shields.
[ This Message was edited by: MrSparkle on 2007-03-25 21:46 ]
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Sixkiller
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Joined: May 11, 2005
Posts: 1786
From: Netherlands
| Posted: 2007-03-26 00:48
From the dev log:
- Planetary shields increased in strength.
Could a dev explain us what was changed to the shields?
Because i totally agree and i to expect that ICC planets will be impossible to take over.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2007-03-26 08:16
Because they wanted bombing to be harder.
You're not supposed to bomb a well built planet with one bomber, in one run in 1.484. If you use multiple bombing craft, then your bombs will hit..
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Sixkiller
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From: Netherlands
| Posted: 2007-03-26 08:39
we will see in beta how bombing ICC goes i guess
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2007-03-26 15:00
ICC planets are intended to be hard to capture - they are the defensive faction. What their planets will lack in offensive power they will excell in defense.
What you are assuming is that one person will be able to cap all UGTO and Kluth type planets on their own and this is simply not true. Given how bomb radius is significantly reduced (players will have to AIM), the covering over of bombs is likely to not be as important as it has been.
In 1.480, if you were there and recall, people bombed planets by simply overwhelming them with the number of bombs. It should take at least three bombers to take down a planet - even an ICC one with shields. Because what they lack in offensive power will allow other factions more time and more runs to weaken a planet, whereas against a UGTO or Kluth planet, it would be extremely hard not to suffere immense damage.
Thats the tradeoff you see? It rests alot on the testing to see how it will have to be tweaked, but thats how I invision it. Kluth defend their planets by overwhelming the ships bombing, UGTO do it by that and adequate defense, and ICC do it by being a hard nut to crack.
-Ent
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Sixkiller
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From: Netherlands
| Posted: 2007-03-27 06:50
Ok, so what number of people would you say is what we aim for to take over icc planets?
Because right now, my guess is like 7+
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MrSparkle
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Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2007-03-27 13:10
I'm not expecting Kluth offense bases (they aren't 'defense bases' really) to dissuade bombers at all. I'm assuming no bomber will ever have to get close enough to a Kluth planet to worry about it's beams. This is assuming we can actually target a planet's surface buildings from far away with a scanner like I think we should.
UGTO will be in a similar situation as Kluth. So long as bombers can stay out of range of the beams it will be successfully bombed.
I don't think pure ICC planets will prove to be extremely difficult since bombers can get close to them to protect their bombs. But it will still be very tough to do, and frustrating as well considering ICC will also have the best bombing capability and you know in the back of your head that they can come back and recapture it easier than you could.
No my biggest concern is not pure ICC planets. My biggest concern is when ICC neutron a Kluth planet to retain those offense bases as well as build a shield or 3.
When a shield is present, it's required that the bomber protect his bombs with his ship right up the point of impact, and then hope enough of them get through to take the shield down and do some damage. You simply cannot launch bombs from afar and expect enough of them to get through both the beams and the shields. If there's a combination of Kluth bases and improved ICC shields it's going to be pretty much impossible. You won't be able to get close to the planet meaning you'll have to create a cloud bomb from afar, and if we can't target buildings from far away any medium to large size planet will be safe from even a determined attack by many bombers since nobody will be foolish enough to build structures in the center (much like the old days)
I totally agree that planets should be hard to bomb and capture. I don't agree that 1 faction gets both the best planet defense in the game, and the best bombers in the game. It makes it way too easy for that faction to bomb and capture planets, and then hold onto those planets. It's already too easy for them in 483.
This may all depend on how easy it is to target individual buildings on a planet's surface. In 483 it's impossible. In 484 it will be required. I really hope scanners will allow us to see the surface of a planet again.
Here's another scenario: Kluth bio bomb an ICC planet and replace ICC defense bases with their own but leave the shields. Not that I expect ICC planets to fall into enemy hands or anything. ICC will rip through the MV at whatever pace they choose while Kluth and UGTO will be forced to only attack each other's planets since ICC will be too tough.
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Fattierob
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Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2007-03-27 15:40
Quote:
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On 2007-03-27 13:10, MrSparkle wrote:
You simply cannot launch bombs from afar and expect enough of them to get through both the beams and the shields.
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Lies. I remember a .480 siege very clearly - we had 5 or so bombers firing at one deathstar (all defence planet with no room to drop inf) with resupply ships.
no bombs hit the planet. Their was litterly rows upon bombs coming towards the planet, but not enough to overwhelm all the defences
but then the planet started to run out of energy. Slowly, the power on the defence bases started droping....99%...98%....97%.
Long story short, after a lengthy siege we finally managed to bomb it.
I agree, however, that we should make doubly sure that such a icc/k'luth mutation base is not overpowered - or any kind of mutation of two factions planet. (Perhaps a 25% penlity to operating enemy's bases? or just a human using k'luth tech penality
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Sixkiller
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From: Netherlands
| Posted: 2007-03-28 05:55
i never had def bases drop out of power lol
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2007-03-28 11:10
What your enemy can do, so can you. In terms of bombing, yeah, they'll have the Bomber Dreadnought, UGTO will still have their Bomber Cruiser. Kluth still has their Clavate.
The fact is, its simply not going to be 'easy', for any one faction. Also bear in mind that Neutrons go through shields as well, so that notion that it makes a shielded Kluth planet unstoppable is just plain wrong.
See planet that hasn't a shield but alot of defense? Use mirvs. Want to capture a planet with most of the structures intact? Use neuts. Remember that ICC would have to capture a planet, build a shield on it, and it would have to be recaptured with that shield intact. Its not as if they will spring up on every planet, very likely ICC would rather scrap the shields on a planet about to give way rather than let it fall into enemy hands.
So many scenarios, but for every one, a solution. Bombing solo or with two people is a thing of the past and in all truth, ICC are really the planet hugging faction. That makes up for their particular lack of offensive capability.
Also bear in mind the ICC BD is getting nerfed to nerfdom, so only expect it to be the best in terms that it has what, one or two more bomb slots?
-Ent
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doda *EP5 no longer exception...*
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Joined: December 11, 2005
Posts: 1012
From: happy land
| Posted: 2007-03-29 00:41
Either the bomber dread is too uber in 1.484 or icc planet def isnt that strong. Cause ppl were still bombing icc planets solo in bomber dreads in 1.484 beta.
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Sixkiller
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From: Netherlands
| Posted: 2007-03-29 06:56
beta aint finished yet, the ships didnt get redesigned either
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MrSparkle
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Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2007-03-29 10:46
Ok fattie I agree with that. Enough bombers will eventually wear a planet down. But the thing is, 480 was a different version. Things worked a lot better overall back then. In 483 I've never seen a defense base drop below 90% power. So you can't use a 480 siege as an example. It would take like an hour to do that. And what happens when you can't target any structure and only the center of a planet, and 1 defender shows up? All he has to do is get in the way and no bombs get near the planet, and with no damage to his ship. And we can safely assume that more than 1 defender will be showing up. Make those defenders escort destroyers...
That does bring up another question though: Will defense bases run out of power faster in 484 than now? They never run out now whereas in previous versions it was possible.
And Ent, I'm worried that neuts won't be nearly as effective as they are now. Currently you can launch neuts at a planet and just drop the population to shut down defenses. But bombs are getting nerfed. Perhaps it's only mirvs that are getting nerfed? If so then neuts just became a whole lot more useful. If not, and both neuts and mirvs are getting nerfed, we have a problem. Neuts can go through a shield but what will they do when they hit? If an entire stack of neuts just kills 2 or 3 pop like I fear then neuts are gonna need to be targeted at infantry instead (which brings up yet again the problem of targeting a planet's surface from far away which we can't do this version)
See this is why I want to beta test this. I need to know how things are gonna work  I need to know if we can use scanners to bomb like we used to (to see the planet surface from far away). I need to know if neuts are getting nerfed along with mirvs. I need to know if bio bombs will remain ineffective (currently you only get 5 per slot which means you have to switch to mirvs or neuts. Does anyone ever use bio bombs this version?). I need to know just how effective kluth defense bases will be because I'm worried about their ability to stop bombs. I need to know if the BD will still be able to level planets much easier than cruisers (like in the older versions not this current version where even a frigate can do it)
Where is beta??
Oh and one more thing, ICC do not lack in offensive power Not in 483. They're supposed to have power problems but don't due to the lack of restrictions on modding. They have roughly the same offensive output as UGTO. Maybe that's another thing that's getting changed in 484? Making ICC a true defensive faction with the natural drawback of less offensive power?
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Enterprise
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Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2007-03-29 18:17
I think you'd have to talk to Draf and the Devs on what they plan honestly, I simply know they plan on modifying every ship to its role within every faction.
That assumes that ICC will be driven to its mainly defensive nature.
As for neuts, I doubt they would get nerfed to the point of being ineffective. I can see an entire stack of neuts hitting near population centers wiping out 5-25 pop.
Yeah, we definately need Beta to find out.
One thing we have to do is detach ourselves from 1.483 - 1.484 will be nothing like it, so completely different it might as well be a different game. Anything you know from 1.483, discard. What is now will most likely not be the same next version.
Fattie has a better grasp. 1.484 will be more closely tied to 1.480 than any other version since. Its a good place to base assumptions on, as bombing will be very similar to it.
-Ent
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Fattierob
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Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2007-03-30 20:10
I just wanted to add one thing
If my memory serves me correctly, planets aren't meant to be captured willy nilly. I remember Faustus saying he wanted it to be "A big event"
Whatever that means.
Anyway, I think this discussion is moot, but raises up some very interesting points and questions that only a working beta server can solve.
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