| Author |
Fleet Wars Tournament |
Supertrooper
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: March 18, 2004
Posts: 1895
From: Maryland, U.S.A
|  Posted: 2007-03-03 11:56
In the 'old' Fleet Wars, the matches where mainly decided on by what the fleets involved wanted. That way no one could complain that then other side had an unfair advantage.
Now, limiting modding isnt exactly the best course to go here. Many of the K'luth and ICC ships are basicaly rubbish without modding or upgrading. UGTO ships are pretty much the best when stock. You could limit the factions players could be better, that way they'd be balanced in the ships they'd use.
Also.. Limiting players from using their valid (And legal) combat tactics? Thats rather.. Ignorant? Allowing players to rotate shields should be allowed, because it is a two-sided effect. On one hand, you can change it to a hurt side, but on the other hand you are loosing far more shields then what you'd initialy have to. ICC rarely armor rotate, it's abit more of a hassle to do it when your worrying about your shields and eneregy.
ED's and PD's should be allowed, but only if both fleets agree on how they will be used. I also dont think supplies should be used, only because it can have a very big advantage for UGTO (That sup is a beast!), while the ICC Brick is decent. K'luth get the royal shaft on that end..
Basic rules should be decided early, ones that can cause a biased effect. Yes, you can say their not, but there is a hint of an Unconscious bias. Which means that you dont know you are bending the rules to your side, but it's still happening some. The other things (Factions, modding, ships) should be decided by the fleets who are about to fight, that way no one can complain of the other side having the unfair advantage..
- $in
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doda *EP5 no longer exception...*
Grand Admiral
Joined: December 11, 2005
Posts: 1012
From: happy land
| Posted: 2007-03-03 12:56
how about just have both sides agree to 1 specific fleet.
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Leonide
Grand Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: October 01, 2005
Posts: 1553
From: Newport News, Virginia
| Posted: 2007-03-03 14:41
i'm going to have to pull out of this fleet wars...i am not pulling my fleet, i am pulling MYSELF out.... i do not agree with the rules...banning valid combat tactics? come on kanman. get some common sense!!
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captain of the ICC Assault Cruiser C.S.S. Sledgehammer
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Kanman
Grand Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: August 26, 2005
Posts: 1017
From: Virginia, United States
| Posted: 2007-03-03 15:02
Fine! ill allow armor rotation, but I NEVER banned shield energy rotation. I dont know where you got that idea.
The reason i CANNOT allow each fleet battle to decide its own rules is because this has to be a Tournament. Tournaments DEMAND standardized rules. Win under the same rules throughout the tournament. Changing them as we go along is simply.... not a tournament. I dont know any other way to describe it.
Now, I am a patient and fair man. I am open to criticisim and other's ideas, but it is obvious that it will be impossible to develop a set of Tournament Rules that will suit all players. So, I am sticking with them as they are layed out.
Its a tournament, not a battle in the MV. You dont sit down to a game of monopoly and complain that you cant buy stock in companies or get loans from the bank. you play under the rules as they are described for the game. The same goes for this Tournament. Play the Tournament under the rules as they appear. They are reasonably as well balanced as I can make them and its all supposed to be in fun. Stop being so damned difficult! I offer you something that will be greatly entertaining for the DS community, and take more than 20 minutes (unlike official DS events), so people can track results and see where they stand, etc, and all everyone can do is try to give their version of what they think the rules should be. Stop complaining and just choose to either join in the fun and play, or choose to not play.
Short of DIRECT PROOF that combat as it is laid out will be unbalanced, NO further adjustments will be made to the rules. Period.
The Tournament is an offer to the community for a fun change of pace. If you find it such an offensive offer, then just dont sign up for it and keep on lobbycamping.
*If you all know so danged much about how to make it perfect, why dont you get off your lazy rears and make your own events. At least I am trying.*
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Supertrooper
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: March 18, 2004
Posts: 1895
From: Maryland, U.S.A
| Posted: 2007-03-03 15:45
There is no way to make it perfect, and yours is pretty far from it.
If both sides where to agree on the rules, there wouldnt be a problem. But if both sides didnt even have much of a say in the rules, there would be alot of problems.
"Give the people freedom of choice, or they'll make you wish you where dead."
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Kanman
Grand Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: August 26, 2005
Posts: 1017
From: Virginia, United States
| Posted: 2007-03-03 15:49
oh? and how much stock ship flying in the DarkSpen server have to done? I have spent hours and HOURS in there, dueling and fleet battling. I know what I have laid out to be pretty darn even.
I say again, until you show me DIRECT PROOF that the current rules present an unfair advantage, they will remain as they are. No more theory or opinion. Get in there and try it. See what happens. Show me 3-4 ships getting destroyed before an enemy ship even takes hull damage. You have nothing but speculation to back your claims, and I will not adjust the rules based on that.
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Supertrooper
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: March 18, 2004
Posts: 1895
From: Maryland, U.S.A
| Posted: 2007-03-03 16:03
I've spent alot of time dueling in stock ships, dont assume I havent. That'd be rather ignorant of you.
I'm not going to go into the game and take screenshots of each stock ship, I dont have that kind of time.
For ICC. Stock ships arent bad when you first see them. But in an actual fight (Not a 1v1 duel.) they are terrible. You wont have enough ammo (Rail Guns) and energy to do anything. Your shields will run out of energy way before you get close to hull on your enemy. ICC also have the least powerful weapons while stock, and that doesnt help when your supposed to be defensive, with crap defenses. Anyone in an ICC Dread will be boned, the arcs are terrible on them.
For UGTO. The best stock ships. They have the best armor while stock, and since armor rotation is allowed, they can do more then the ICC can. Their weapons are far more powerful then the ICC while stock, and they can last longer due to not having shields to suck energy up. The only bad thing about UGTO stock ships is the EAD, it's still horrible. The battle dread would dominate most things, unless the pilot of the BD has never flown a dread before.
For K'luth. Not exactly the best.. Not enough armor to be in a fight with more then three people, and not enough energy or firepower too. K'luth run out of energy when cloaked, if their stocked. So they'd better off staying uncloaked, not firing, and trying to run.
Now. You can upgrade K'luth armor, you said.. Uh. That would basicaly massacre anything it came by.. Either go all stock and no upgrade for all factions, or just have it normal modding. And a limit on cloaking? That's basicaly telling K'luth "You loose, re-roll ICC."
If ICC dreads had one engine upgraded, they could last what.. Ten more seconds in a fight? With no upgrading other then that, their boned too.
You need to remember what each faction is built for, not what you think they should be.
A good set of Fleet Battle rules would be..
1. Fleets agree on Ships, Factions, and Modding. No Fleet Battles will take place until ALL members of each side agree on the set rules, and feel that they have reached a fair fight.
2. Battles will be set in a limited enviroment, this could range from 2k to 4kgu arenas. Jumping will be allowed.
Something like that.
{Edit} Here is the forums for the old Fleet Wars server. Something that was pretty well liked, until a few certain players abused it..
[ This Message was edited by: |$in| on 2007-03-03 16:07 ]
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2007-03-03 16:10
I think Kanmans rules are reasonable with the changes I suggested (that he agreed/disagreed with).
Tournaments need standardized rules, or else how is there to decide whether a match was fairly fought between all?
Anyways. Modding = no. I've played on DSI enough with stock to find that, except for ICC having slight energy problems without upgrading, that stock works wonders.
Especially for Kluth.
-Ent
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Kanman
Grand Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: August 26, 2005
Posts: 1017
From: Virginia, United States
| Posted: 2007-03-03 16:16
Quote:
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Now. You can upgrade K'luth armor, you said.. Uh. That would basicaly massacre anything it came by.. Either go all stock and no upgrade for all factions, or just have it normal modding. And a limit on cloaking? That's basicaly telling K'luth "You loose, re-roll ICC."
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I played against Smartin to test these arrangements. I was in a straight stock BD (UGTO) and he was in a mandi, with upgraded armor, engines and small lasers. I nearly had him. fluxed his systems, armor was shot, but I got over confident and he got a good shot off and I lost.
Smartin used the limited cloak rules to get into position for strikes, force my fighters to turn back, and even to rotate armor.
I am TELLING YOU that the rules as they appear ARE TESTED and showed to produce an even fight.
Edit: Given talk of ICC having energy problems that would significantly damage their ability to fight, I am willing to let them upgrade some or all of their engines to address this issue. Ill let someone with more ICC stock combat experience decide, short of me going into the server later and testing them myself.
[ This Message was edited by: Kanman *FC2* [R33] on 2007-03-03 16:18 ]
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Supertrooper
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: March 18, 2004
Posts: 1895
From: Maryland, U.S.A
| Posted: 2007-03-03 16:20
That was a stock battle dread.. It has a good bit of armor.
Go try it against a cruiser, or a destroyer. Anyone not in a dread would have an unfair advantage.
Yours may have been tested, but they havent been tested right.
[ This Message was edited by: |$in| on 2007-03-03 16:22 ]
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2007-03-03 16:51
Quote:
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On 2007-03-03 16:20, |$in| wrote:
That was a stock battle dread.. It has a good bit of armor.
Go try it against a cruiser, or a destroyer. Anyone not in a dread would have an unfair advantage.
Yours may have been tested, but they havent been tested right.
[ This Message was edited by: |$in| on 2007-03-03 16:22 ]
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Okay I just have to attack you on this.
Cruisers. And dessies. Are not. Supposed. To take on. Dreadnoughts.
Not alone. In a group, yes.
Not alone.
Want to take on a dreadnought on your own? Get your own. Want to tag team on them? Get cruisers.
That is how its supposed to be.
Thats how 1.484 will be.
-Ent
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Kanman
Grand Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: August 26, 2005
Posts: 1017
From: Virginia, United States
| Posted: 2007-03-03 16:53
i sincerely hope a mandi can kill a UGTO destroyer. If a dread cant kille a destroyer 95% or higher, then there is something very wrong.
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Supertrooper
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: March 18, 2004
Posts: 1895
From: Maryland, U.S.A
| Posted: 2007-03-03 16:53
I didnt say it had to be dread vs cruiser.. did I?
Just saying. Battle Dreads have ALOT of armor compared to the rest of the UGTO ships. A Scale or Scarab thats upgraded can whip a stock TC and BC..
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2007-03-03 17:51
Its not upgrading everything silly. 
And you're taking into account that those two classes are modded.
No modding. Limited upgrading.
-Ent
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-Smokey-
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 22, 2004
Posts: 784
From: Florida
| Posted: 2007-03-03 19:05
maybe let each faction upgrade on what they are weakest in. Like icc upgrade engines because of energy short, Kluth Upgrade armor because its crap, and ugto whatever i dunno what are they weak in.
[ This Message was edited by: |Smokey| on 2007-03-03 19:05 ]
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