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Bombing must be fixed!!! |
The Anarchist
Grand Admiral
Joined: January 09, 2005
Posts: 83
|  Posted: 2005-08-30 13:55
Just to add to that, bombing planets is extremely easy for newbies too
I captured and destroyed many planets in the last few weeks using a bomber frigate or scout in usually one run (no ecm or nothin, just jumpin in and bashing the b button)
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2005-08-30 14:25
It seems the more patches go on, the easier it becomes to bomb - people thought in 1.480 it was easy, but that was likely the only patch in which required. required skill to bomb.
For the past patches after that said one, it has been fairly easy - run at a planet, drop your bombs, shield them, down goes the planet.
In 1.481, I admit not to have played much, though that was mostly due to technical difficulties, any bombing I did see wasn't much.
In 1.482, it was not truely easy, it did require effort to bomb, and the risk of lagging into planets was ever present, though, it was easier than any other patch, until that time at least. While the threshold bug existed during that time, an entire planet wipe was unheard of, and the fact that bios were the common usage due to their ability to go through shields made them the preferred choice of bombers.
Though we get to this version, 1.483 - and I find the truely lame.
Every faction possesses a bomber capable of mass destruction, though the ICC harbor the best of all - the Bomber Dreadnought. No matter what faction however, there the problem remains - people use the bug for prestige, and only prestige, and exploit that purpose for their own gain. The end result is that very rarely, there are people like Nim who use Neutron bombs, instead preferring MirVs - there is no tactical face to it, its all prestige.
Anyone is fully capable of leveling a planet, the fullest newbies in the game can do it with absurd ease, gaining high ranks with the simple smashing of a button - and it does forcibly remind me of scouting for FA with the mission system - it does need to be fixed.
There also lies the current, more pressing problem - those who have already earned such high ranks from the abuse of it. There are those in 1.482 who whored around newbie, as well as did so almost exclusively in the MV, all for that prestige, all the time, there are people who have done so, and I do not wish to name names.
What can be done? It depends on how far you want to roll back. Personally myself, I would roll all the way back to 1.480, but that would be unfair to those not here then, and those who have earned their points as well. 1.482 would be good, but I can never help but feel those who abused it keep the rank they never earned...
In any case, I agree with Jack, there needs to be a rollback.
-Ent
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Arcanum {C?}
Cadet
Joined: June 25, 2005
Posts: 222
| Posted: 2005-08-30 14:43
The situation must be rectified.
But is a rollback the mechanism which will benefit the most people who deserve benefit, harm the fewest innocent victims, and punish the most abusers?
I think this is what we need to discuss. Not whether something must be done about bombing, which is a topic already beaten to death.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-08-30 15:03
Quote:
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On 2005-08-30 14:43, Arcanum {C?} wrote:
The situation must be rectified.
But is a rollback the mechanism which will benefit the most people who deserve benefit, harm the fewest innocent victims, and punish the most abusers?
I think this is what we need to discuss. Not whether something must be done about bombing, which is a topic already beaten to death.
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Unfortunatly, yes.
People like anarchist will lose a lot because they have abused the bombing threshold, but people like me, who have bombed legit, will lose none, because I havnt abused the bug. If you've bombed once or twice, and not made much, then you wont lose much will you?
If you've overabused it, then your going to lose a lot, and well, it serves you right for abusing it.
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Arcanum {C?}
Cadet
Joined: June 25, 2005
Posts: 222
| Posted: 2005-08-30 15:51
You don't much care for those newcomers who joined after the 1.483 was released, do you?
For them, they are only playing the game as they know it. They have no point of comparison. They have no benchmark. And if they weren't allowed to bomb, what else could they do? It's not like people combat any more. It's not like supply ships are in great demand any more. It's not like engineering is the paragon of enjoyment. It's not like jumping around getting navigation badges is likely to fulfill the appetite of a normal gamer.
Have we thought about those people? (For the purposes of full disclosure, I do not fall into such a category and WOULD accept any prestige reduction handed out to pre-1.483 players — if everyone's lost time were equally compensated by Faustus too.)
I fully understand and AGREE with your argument, Jack. But try to envision this scenario:
You join a game as a new player. You learn the ropes. You read the rules. You follow them all. You start to pay for it because the rules are acceptable to you. You advance in rank and you choose the most efficient way you can see to gain it - bombing. No one ever said bombing was illegal. No one ever taught you about the existence of the other type of bomb (Neutron). All you know is that Mirvs do the job most of the time, and you gain prestige for bombing the planet. You don't read the forums, because you aren't yet assimilated into the DS community. The veterans certainly don't seem to reach out to you. So you exist in your own little world, happily gaining rank and prestige. Then, it is announced that you will lose a significant fraction of all your bombing prestige. And this is to punish a few people who have been constantly abusing the system.
So you have spent hours and hours gaining prestige in the way you thought was best and most efficient. And now, you are punished for it. Heck, if you knew that this would happen, you probably wouldn't have subscribed for the game anyways. And so now, all your work is for nought, and never once did you actually break a single rule. And in your mind, when you find out later how this all came to be, you realize that your 1 month worth of hard work was lost because some veterans who NEVER ONCE reached out to you, were upset that you're gaining prestige faster than they did.
And in your mind, you think, "Hell, this is the game that Palestar is currently offering. If these players don't like the fact that prestige is easier to gain now than before, it sure as heck should not be my problem and my punishment that I was playing the game as only I could. In fact, those veterans had an equal chance to bomb during this time. They chose not to. And no matter how good their intentions, no matter how righteous their desire, they had the opportunity and refused to. And now I, the new player who has never known anything different or been told otherwise in the game manual, am being punished for something which was never my fault. And I have lost hours upon hours of game time, because some veterans couldn't stand how fast I was catching up. And usually, in other games, veterans are usually the ones who benefit from easy experience gains when the game is still in its early stages. For once, the benefit has befallen the new players, and people cannot withstand this new dynamic."
And so this is how the cycle of hate begins.
--
Don't get me wrong, Jack. I empathize with you. And I agree with your point. But I also empathize with them. We need a happy medium. Darkspace does not need to lose its new blood. Because if we continually ignore the interests of new players, Darkspace cannot last for long.
And at the end of the day, what use is it to be Grand Admiral of the whole universe, when you are the only one left?
[ This Message was edited by: Arcanum {C?} on 2005-08-30 15:53 ]
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-08-30 22:23
They should lose bombing, but nothing else.
But you have to see it from our point of view..
We spent YEARS to get our profiles like this...
They spent DAYS, to do the same.
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash *Jack* on 2005-08-30 22:29 ]
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GothThug {C?}
Fleet Admiral
Joined: June 29, 2005
Posts: 2932
| Posted: 2005-08-30 22:46
i dont think people should get their bombing stats wiped over a silly lil bug, i mean come on, its easier than Combat at the moment...as for me i did a test to see which is more stronger.. and the victim here is the Mirv bomb tone down the mirv bomb and you wont have anymore planets glassed to the point of being Rebuilt. now, theres a person here with more bombing pres than anyone and that is NIM dont be a frackin hypocrite nim because yer strengths are in bombing. nothing else...
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-08-30 22:53
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On 2005-08-30 22:46, Fatal GothThug{C?} wrote:
i dont think people should get their bombing stats wiped over a silly lil bug, i mean come on, its easier than Combat at the moment...as for me i did a test to see which is more stronger.. and the victim here is the Mirv bomb tone down the mirv bomb and you wont have anymore planets glassed to the point of being Rebuilt. now, theres a person here with more bombing pres than anyone and that is NIM dont be a frackin hypocrite nim because yer strengths are in bombing. nothing else...
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Nim had 110k before 1.483...
He's hardly gained any compaired to others who have gained over 30K!
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Nim *
Chief Marshal
Courageous Elite Commandos
Joined: September 05, 2004
Posts: 295
| Posted: 2005-08-30 23:27
Quote:
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On 2005-08-30 22:46, Fatal GothThug{C?} wrote:
i dont think people should get their bombing stats wiped over a silly lil bug, i mean come on, its easier than Combat at the moment...as for me i did a test to see which is more stronger.. and the victim here is the Mirv bomb tone down the mirv bomb and you wont have anymore planets glassed to the point of being Rebuilt. now, theres a person here with more bombing pres than anyone and that is NIM dont be a frackin hypocrite nim because yer strengths are in bombing. nothing else...
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I only bomb because ugto lacks bombers... If we had bombers everytime I was on I would rather get combat (second highest of my stats)
Unlike most bombers here I bomb to expand ugto planets and not to pres whore and also I care about the planets I cap hence I use neutrons/bio..
And my strength is in just bombing? How would you know? You never fought me, u dont know how I build, infact u never played as ugto to know how I play...
EDIT: Most of the bombing points I've made since this version came out r by using neutrons and not mirvs like many others...I risk my ship and press to cap planets so we can defend it afterwards not just mirv and leave
PS: There was a short time when i fighter bombed kluth cause i got ***** off at their players pres whoring off our planets (that was just 1 day and in a command station moving slowly and just targeting sy's)
[ This Message was edited by: Nim {C?} on 2005-08-30 23:32 ]
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Diabo|ik
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 16, 2002
Posts: 327
From: Quebec, Canada
| Posted: 2005-08-30 23:29
If the issue about planet damage points is the bombing ranking, then the solution is easy and elegant, rollback the planet damaged stats to 1482 BUT convert the 1483 earned planet damaged pres to bonus pres. Problem fixed.
One issue remains, they got EASY pres FAST no matter what. And I don't think they should get ripped off of the easy pres for this reason:
In 1480, I tried first and foremost to find a way to get the most kills and get killed as less as possible in the least amount of time. To achieve this, I used ships which we're naturally adept at fighting. My choice wavered between the torpedo cruisers of the time and the K'luth dessies for a time. I eventually went with the ICC ( Kallith, one of my m8eys at the time, had something to do with it... I agree, also, I can remember the friendly atmosphere of the faction that was contrasting with the "formal" atmosphere of the UGTO and the "elite" atmosphere of the K'luth) and my combat ship of choice became the AC, with the AD close behind and the drainer in my soul.
I exploited this ship for pres you may say... or you can say that I tried to find the ship that best suited my playstyle ( play as if it was REAL LIFE, and in real life, life is the most important thing to protect AND to destroy ) AND my personnal ambitions.
I saw other people "exploit" the ship as well... as I saw many people "exploit" the scarab or the ganglia. Fact is, the pres earned in those ships during 1480 never got touched and I suspect that if it had been brought up to rollback all the combat pres to 1479, there would've been a riot...
My choice of a ship was triplefold, personnal reasons, playstyle reasons ( getting more kills, getting killed less in the least amount of time being my top priority ( for a few reasons... mainly because killing people instead of letting em repair presents em with the "quit" button, if they quit, you help your faction out, if they don't and they come back for more and kill them again, at one time or the other, he's gonna either run out of modded ships and log or run out of modded ships and continue to fight in unmodded ships, in both cases, I help the team as well as acting as a deterrent, I know that a lot of my "sworn enemies"  amongst the human factions both hate and respect me because of my combined slaughtering/survival tendencies ) ).
Tho I can agree that this bombing situation not only affects one player at a time like an overpowered ship would, I still find it questionable to nerf a paying customers "earned" pres just because it isn't "fair". Who said life was fair?
Ethic... Justice... Morality... *sighs*
Other possible solutions:
Convert 1483 bombing earned pres to bonus pres which can then be halved or more to compensate for the "easiness" of the earning process itself which, and that everyone can agree opn, is FLAWED and DEFECTIVE.
Halve ( or more ) the 1483 bombing earned pres for everyone.
[ This Message was edited by: Diabo|ik on 2005-08-30 23:31 ]
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Mostly Retired.
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Nim *
Chief Marshal
Courageous Elite Commandos
Joined: September 05, 2004
Posts: 295
| Posted: 2005-08-30 23:41
Quote:
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On 2005-08-30 23:29, Diabo|ik wrote:
If the issue about planet damage points is the bombing ranking, then the solution is easy and elegant, rollback the planet damaged stats to 1482 BUT convert the 1483 earned planet damaged pres to bonus pres. Problem fixed.
One issue remains, they got EASY pres FAST no matter what. And I don't think they should get ripped off of the easy pres for this reason:
In 1480, I tried first and foremost to find a way to get the most kills and get killed as less as possible in the least amount of time. To achieve this, I used ships which we're naturally adept at fighting. My choice wavered between the torpedo cruisers of the time and the K'luth dessies for a time. I eventually went with the ICC ( Kallith, one of my m8eys at the time, had something to do with it... I agree, also, I can remember the friendly atmosphere of the faction that was contrasting with the "formal" atmosphere of the UGTO and the "elite" atmosphere of the K'luth) and my combat ship of choice became the AC, with the AD close behind and the drainer in my soul.
I exploited this ship for pres you may say... or you can say that I tried to find the ship that best suited my playstyle ( play as if it was REAL LIFE, and in real life, life is the most important thing to protect AND to destroy ) AND my personnal ambitions.
I saw other people "exploit" the ship as well... as I saw many people "exploit" the scarab or the ganglia. Fact is, the pres earned in those ships during 1480 never got touched and I suspect that if it had been brought up to rollback all the combat pres to 1479, there would've been a riot...
My choice of a ship was triplefold, personnal reasons, playstyle reasons ( getting more kills, getting killed less in the least amount of time being my top priority ( for a few reasons... mainly because killing people instead of letting em repair presents em with the "quit" button, if they quit, you help your faction out, if they don't and they come back for more and kill them again, at one time or the other, he's gonna either run out of modded ships and log or run out of modded ships and continue to fight in unmodded ships, in both cases, I help the team as well as acting as a deterrent, I know that a lot of my "sworn enemies" amongst the human factions both hate and respect me because of my combined slaughtering/survival tendencies ) ).
Tho I can agree that this bombing situation not only affects one player at a time like an overpowered ship would, I still find it questionable to nerf a paying customers "earned" pres just because it isn't "fair". Who said life was fair?
Ethic... Justice... Morality... *sighs*
Other possible solutions:
Convert 1483 bombing earned pres to bonus pres which can then be halved or more to compensate for the "easiness" of the earning process itself which, and that everyone can agree opn, is FLAWED and DEFECTIVE.
Halve ( or more ) the 1483 bombing earned pres for everyone.
[ This Message was edited by: Diabo|ik on 2005-08-30 23:31 ]
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This idea would be good provided they fix the bombing bug very soon ( i mean in less than a week). But that wont happen and players will contunue to mirv and make easy pres... So again instead of focusing on the next version it would be better to fix a major flaw in the current one thus making a lot of players happy.
Pres should only be rolledback if the players can get compensated for the time and money they wasted since this version came out (handing coupon out doesnt give back the time players spent playing)
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$yTHe {C?}
Grand Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: September 29, 2002
Posts: 1292
From: Arlington, VA
| Posted: 2005-08-31 01:05
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!
$y "I can split up my name too" THe
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-08-31 01:58
Quote:
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On 2005-08-31 01:05, $yTHe {Ret.} wrote:
$y "I can split up my name too" THe
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h4x!
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soulassassins
Cadet
Joined: February 01, 2005
Posts: 3
| Posted: 2005-08-31 06:28
i remember when i first started, i played in the newbie server for a while and then i went into mv and no one would help, it was just a silly thing that i needed help with and that was jumping from sys to sys using gates. the problem is that the new guys arent being educated and quite often ignored, all vets know that if you capture and hold a planet it is more rewarding than just nuking a planet. but for starters new guys dont know how to mod a ship. yes it tells you in the manual, but who can put up there hand and say that they read all of the manual and understood it fully before you jumped into your first ship. now im fairly new to the game and yes bombing is easy, but like it has be said there is very little combat which is what i prefer. the other problem is not the new guys ive seen stations obit planets and destroy whole systems, which can only be the vets, and most planets on mv have a high defs rating that new guys cant get near them....i know ive tried.
you guys must remember that bombing is part of the game whether it be mirfing or other wise, otherwise they would not be in the game. i dont think a rollback would help purliy because it might put off the new guys, and if there was a rollback then there must be compisation. i think a good why to alter this is to change the bombers premodded loadout with neutrons or bio bombs instead of mirfs and nuks. the other solution is for ppl to start defending there systems, ive seen ppl fly of just to bomb another system when their own systems are being attacked. if ppl keep dieing when they attack a planet then they would soon stop or at least re-think there plans. plus this would negate their gains.
and ive played a little with nim and he is one of a few guys who i know never uses mirfs, and if anyone askes he does always tell ppl to use neutrons, as well as being generally useful for other info.
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Drafell
Grand Admiral
Mythica
Joined: May 30, 2003
Posts: 2449
From: United Kingdom
| Posted: 2005-08-31 07:04
No matter what you say, rollbacks of profiles will never occur unless there is a serious error with the db that screws everyone profile.
About the only thing that will get addressed is the threshold/radius, asking or arguing for anything else is pointless.
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