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Theory of Ship to Ship Combat |
Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
|  Posted: 2005-08-28 14:31
This will probably one of the most complicated and most arguable of DS aspects, and has been tossed over so many times that few people even know the logical standpoint of the game anymore - I dont think I do either.
But that is beside the point - the point here is a theory on how combat should work in Darkspace, and how I feel it was meant to be - these are my opinions with a basis in fact.
With modding in, it leads to the temptation of modding ships which unbalence its truer purpose, such as Picket Destroyers acting like Gunboats, Missile Dreadnoughts acting like Torpedo Boats, and so on.
The first thing we must know, is that every ship - regardless of rank and requirements - has a role. Its role is defined generally in its name (Missile Cruiser - fires long range missiles, duh). This role of a ship has a defined loadout to start with - if everyone flew stock, it would be - theoretically - balenced.
My first feelings on ship's role is simple - do not ever deviate it from its role in any way - shape - form - or manner. A close range ship would not have alot of long range weapons, and vice versa. This will mean it will force every ship to depend on another - this enforces Darkspace's ever so fufilled notation of teamwork.
My second feeling is, make every weapon have a role. Defined as follows.
- Lasers - Short range.
- Torpedos - Medium Range.
- Missiles - Long Range.
- Cannons - Medium Range.
Following this we can assume than every combat at ship every combat ship will have a combination of one or two or even all of these weapons.
However - every ship of every class would focus on one of these weapons.
By focusing, that ship will have at least 65% of its entire weapons based on soley that weapon.
The higher the classes go, the less of the percentage of weapons are focused entirely at that; the lower of classes you go, the more focused it becomes. This will force smaller ships to rely on larger ships and vice versa.
How perhaps? For example, a Picket Destroyer would have 90% or so of its weapons be lasers for point defence to aid a Battle Dreadnought, which would have 65-80% of its weapons be cannons, and probably due to the presense of fighters and torpedos, it would have maybe at best 10% of its weapons be lasers.
In addition, remove inter-weapon modding. This will be the single greatest move towards a balenced combat system - meaning only Torpedos can be exchanged for Torpedos, and Missiles can only be exchanged for other missiles - and then it is only alternatives.
These two things, would give every ship a role, and keep it to its role - no matter what.
This is quite possibly the most unstable ground of this in every way - mostly because everyone has differing opinions on what should be able to fight what.
Thus my theory continues - with every ship having a role, what would it be able to do?
As the classes go higher, the more offensive they become, the lower you go, the more supportive they become.
To start off - my opinion is that that only a ship of one class (a Dreadnought for example) could solo another ship of the same class (another dreadnought) in a reasonable amount of time.
This would make every ship capable of destroying every other ship, but it could only destroy its match in a reasonable amount of time.
One may ask what a reasonable amount of time is - I would say that amount of time is around 1-5 minutes.
This works both ways - A cruiser cannot solo a Dreadnought, and a Dreadnought would not be able to solo a cruiser (under normal combat conditions - both moving and fighting).
The farther apart classes are, the longer it takes to kill it. A scout could probably never kill a Dreadnought, but if the scout kept moving, the Dreadnought could never catch it long enough to destroy it.
In terms of ship to ship matching at standstill - a larger ship will always destroy a smaller one..
So what does this enforce? Teamwork - pure unending teamwork.
Now if every ship is capable of destroying another, then how would that work? Thus comes in the area of skill and numbers. It will always take numbers of a smaller class to kill a larger one due to thicker armor.
Likewise, it would take many Dreadnoughts to kill a Destroyer because it moves so fast.
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Now I also mentioned that lower classes become more supportive - this would mean that smaller classes support the larger classes. Destroyers support a Dreadnought by defending it against frigates/cruisers/destroyers for example. A supporting class of ship is anything between Scout and Destroyer. Also, a supporting ship can only defend its own class, a class lower, and a class higher than it - a supporting ship is no designed for full out offensive firepower except in numbers.
There are also offensive classes - Cruisers and Dreadnoughts. They are the class which is most designed to be the bulk of the fleet as well as the backbone that destroys stations and defends planets - anything that gets too close to either class gets very silent very quickly. Also, an offensive class of ship can destroy any other class of ship - however, they are only effective against other cruisers, other dreadnoughts, and stations.
The way this would mean is giving smaller ships the ability to fight, but not the ability to solo larger ships - henceforth relying on numbers. A larger ship is capable of secureing and capping, and able to dish out very large amounts of firepower quickly, and take quite a beating doing so, but cannot survive for too long without the support of Destroyers and Frigates.
This would also mean there are exceptions - skill could amplify a destroyers from a destroyers classe to a support/offensive one. Therefore, a pilot could always extend the Dreadnoughts ability of offesnsive firepower to a supporting one as well. Hence, pilot skill will dictate this but never deviate every ship from its true role.
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Im going to state every class of combat ship here, and define how I feel they should operate.
- Scout - The smallest combat ship with very little weaponry and armor, is capable of tackling down Frigates and other Scouts, and with sufficent numbers, Destroyers and Cruisers. Its main purpose to find the enemy, as well as conceal allies.
- Frigate - A slightly more powerful combative ship, the Frigate is quick and nimble, still with little armor but more weapons, capable of destroying scouts and other frigates, and with a skilled pilot - destroyers. With numbers able to take down cruisers, and deal damage to Dreadnoughts. Its main purpose, is to provide small arms support to larger ships.
- Destroyer - Considered the epitomy of versatility of every faction, the Destroyer is the most powerful Supporting ship. It has sufficient armor and weapons combined with speed and manueverability to defend the largest of ships, and destroy frigates and destroyers with ease, and cruisers get shot down fairly quickly, and dealing much more harrassing firepower to Dreadnoughts and Stations. In numbers, they are a force to be reckoned with.
- Cruisers - The backbone of most factions, the Cruiser is more fine tuned than other classes, having many types of them to fit almost every occasion, able to take down destroyers the comes to close and truely pack a punch to other cruisers, able to lay unending firepower to dreadnoughts and stations. Its main purpose is strike quickly at larger targets.
- Dreadnoughts - The workhorse of the faction, the large and mighty Dreadnought is fearsome opponent, able to destroy anything that comes to closer, but often its heavy batterys miss such smaller targets. Able to withstand massive amounts of punishment, it is more tuned to defend planets and stations, as well as attack and capture them, also fully capable of engaging other Cruisers and Dreadnoughts.
Hope thats helpful - again, I tried to remain unbiased. 
The point of all this is simple - teamwork. The point of this is to make every ship useful in its own aspect, but always needing the reliance of teamwork to succeed - after all, isn't that what Darkspace is about?
Sorry for the long post - I felt to get it all off now.
-Ent
[ This Message was edited by: Enterprise on 2005-08-28 14:35 ]
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Coeus {NCX-Charger}
Admiral, I can't read,
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 3635
From: South Philly
| Posted: 2005-08-28 15:09
I can safely say that I agree with most all of that, with just one side addendum...
a good pilot in any ship should be able to make a mediocre pilot in either the class above or the class below them damaged enough to withdrawal, if not completely destroy them in a good 5-10 minutes engagement of 1 on 1 action...
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Capt.picard
Admiral
Joined: April 15, 2005
Posts: 97
From: Peterborough, England
| Posted: 2005-08-28 15:26
i agree with coeus, a good pilot should be able to pick off a ship a class above or below, the rest i agree with completely.
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Sixkiller
Marshal
Courageous Elite Commandos
Joined: May 11, 2005
Posts: 1786
From: Netherlands
| Posted: 2005-08-28 15:33
Quote:
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- Destroyer - Considered the epitomy of versatility of every faction, the Destroyer is the most powerful Supporting ship. It has sufficient armor and weapons combined with speed and manueverability to defend the largest of ships, and destroy frigates and destroyers with ease, and cruisers get shot down fairly quickly, and dealing much more harrassing firepower to Dreadnoughts and Stations. In numbers, they are a force to be reckoned with.
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Uh aint that exactly what picket and escort destroyers do when they use particles?
Good post tough
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2005-08-28 15:53
Quote:
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Uh aint that exactly what picket and escort destroyers do when they use particles?
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No - because a Picket/Escort Dessie can pretty much solo anything in the game - regardless of skill.
However, here, it does take skill, and it can only solo other Destroyers, and if its a good pilot, Cruisers.
-Ent
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GothThug {C?}
Fleet Admiral
Joined: June 29, 2005
Posts: 2932
| Posted: 2005-08-28 17:36
which is why picket/escort destroyers are the most annoying in Game, they are very powerful, as they have 12 Slots of Beam weapons which can be refitted with Railguns, Gauss, or Partical or if yer lucky pick up some PSI cannons hehe.
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Coeus {NCX-Charger}
Admiral, I can't read,
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 3635
From: South Philly
| Posted: 2005-08-28 17:40
or if you wanna piss off some ickies, 12 EMPs...
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Arcanum {C?}
Cadet
Joined: June 25, 2005
Posts: 222
| Posted: 2005-08-28 19:35
Great post, Enterprise.
I believe implementing this would lead to a much more balanced and fun game. I support everything you have suggested.
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Tikki
Cadet
Raven Warriors
Joined: March 10, 2005
Posts: 132
From: Canuckistan
| Posted: 2005-08-28 20:28
Can we still have tractor scouts? 
I'd say allow perhaps limited modifications to otherwise stock templates. This would go nice with another suggestion I saw before, where you select a weapon/armor/device/whatever slot and get the options for what you can swap or upgrade it to. Let's say a ship allows 6 laser slots. It could allow you to change a maximum of 2 slots to say, cannons. Pick your two arcs to be changed and then the option of swapping is no longer available in any other slots. Make this doable only when in orbit of a factory+starport world.
Just my idea.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2005-08-28 20:45
I made a post here about that Tikki - In the special I slots I included the tractors so I daresay you would still be able to make them. 
Actually...tractors scout are fun. Thank you very much Josef!
-Ent
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Bandit
Cadet
Joined: May 25, 2004
Posts: 165
From: Under a rock
| Posted: 2005-08-28 22:40
I didnt read all of Ent's long ass post because I fall asleep half way throught them. But from what I read I agree with.
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Forever™ the Nightmare
Cadet
Joined: January 31, 2004
Posts: 28
From: on your flank....
| Posted: 2005-08-28 22:49
Moo? tactics are for wussy's
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AlleyCat
Cadet
Evil Empires Inc.
Joined: December 22, 2001
Posts: 148
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2005-08-29 00:58
Your scaring me Ent....I agree with you again.
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Forever™ the Nightmare
Cadet
Joined: January 31, 2004
Posts: 28
From: on your flank....
| Posted: 2005-08-29 02:42
|"In addition, remove inter-weapon modding. This will be the single greatest move towards a balenced combat system - meaning only Torpedos can be exchanged for Torpedos, and Missiles can only be exchanged for other missiles - and then it is only alternatives."|
I was merely mooing at jest. However, I completely agree with this statement Ent. Great idea, i've been pondering such thoughts since the first few times i've lost a cruiser to an escort dessy modded with all particles.
The local MoO'er
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2005-08-29 10:18
So.. I've mentioned it before, and I think Faustus has said it half a dozen times - modding is a can of worms. The easiest fix, the easiest way to balance the game, is to remove modding. Make 50 ships, each designed for a specific role, and make you use those ships. We can balance that. Its trying to balance every gadget when there are near-infinite possible combinations that leads to problems like now - constant complaints of one gadget broken, and a fix just leading to a new broken one.
I like modding, to a point, because I can make the ship I want to fly. I would happily give that up, though, if it meant I could have a more balanced game: no torp MDs, no cannon picket dessies, no uber ships from mediocre loadouts.
I can see having slots restrictive working alright: missiles for missiles, for example, or torps for torps. But even then.. if you balance an icc ship to have high energy, you might make their torps cost less energy, because you know they have shields to deal with - having that tradeoff will keep the cheaper torps balanced, though. But then a Kluth mods them on, and the kluth are meant to have energy problems, but with powerful weapons... this makes Kluth have an advantage that they 'shouldn't' have.
So modding within classes may work.. but it will still cause problems.
I could see no cross-faction tech, and just making different variants of each weapon - like we have multiple missiles now.
Anyway.. just thought I'd bring up those points to think on. Good post, in general.. especially since I've been saying something halfway similar for quite a while.
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