| Author |
a newbies discussion about ds |
craige1
Cadet
Joined: August 11, 2005
Posts: 2
|  Posted: 2005-08-28 06:46
I dont like people explaining to me directly the problems of something i like, but its allso good to know what the problems are and wat people think so soemthing can be done about it, hence this post, and even tho most of the problems metioned in the chat log of wat 2 newbies really think about the game are proberly allready known by everyone in the ds community, i feel compeld to have them metioned anyway. We are expecting a few people to be anoyed with this post, but i think this will benifit the ds community. This game has much potental
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
craige1 says:
-->oi, u still alive?
Harg says:
-->yes
craige1 says:
-->u been on ds today>
craige1 says:
-->?*
Harg says:
-->yes i have
Harg says:
-->quit my alliance
craige1 says:
-->lol
craige1 says:
-->i wasnt expecting u to get much from it
Harg says:
-->i only got in yesterday
Harg says:
-->i am trying to get into bum
craige1 says:
-->there allways clans that just go around asking everybody and anybody -->to join just for numbers
Harg says:
-->i love the kluth
craige1 says:
-->i think im getting board of the game
Harg says:
-->already
craige1 says:
-->after 4 yrs it still looks unfinnished
Harg says:
-->y?
craige1 says:
-->y???
Harg says:
-->like wat looks unfinished?
craige1 says:
-->the teams r inbalanced, the lighting in game is stuffed, etc...
craige1 says:
-->not enough players
craige1 says:
-->major lag issues
Harg says:
-->i know lighting stuff but i don't look at the lights
Harg says:
-->LAG!!!
Harg says:
-->don't even get started
craige1 says:
-->its got to many probs with it
Harg says:
-->see your point now
Harg says:
-->i thought i had been capped
Harg says:
-->but just that game
craige1 says:
-->and the dev team r wierd, after 4 yrs there gona wipe all resource types (a major thing in the game) and just have one
Harg says:
-->so tey are going to ruin their own game in a way?
craige1 says:
-->yeah
Harg says:
-->i should get that battlecruiser game
craige1 says:
-->and from reading the forums and news, the game was alot better before, no lag issues, alot better balnced teams...
craige1 says:
-->yeah, but that game doesnt look anythign long term ether
Harg says:
-->y do some mmorpg have lag and others don't?
Harg says:
-->bad coding?
craige1 says:
-->yes
craige1 says:
-->ds must have very bad coding, since, "they have to reboot the server to get rid of the lag"
craige1 says:
-->lag doesnt build up!!!!!!!!!!!!
Harg says:
-->even i know that
craige1 says:
-->yeah
craige1 says:
-->there server or client must be creating more usless trafic as time goes by, orrrrrrrrrrrr, that the over time ther server uses up more and more cpu power(which looks liek lag to players)
Harg says:
-->i actually saw someone this morning with lag when i didn't
Harg says:
-->normally i lag but it looks wierd
craige1 says:
-->they did metion in the news post about 4 or 5 back that the patch they released at that time had "fixed the servers cpu power problem"
Harg says:
-->looks like it didn't
craige1 says:
-->i would give that game 2, maybe 3 yrs, (making it 6-7 years dev time) before it becomes anything widly acceptable
craige1 says:
-->tho it does sound liek there makign so big overhauls to the game in the next version
craige1 says:
-->which is liek a month away
Harg says:
-->until that lag gone no one will be happy
craige1 says:
-->yeah
craige1 says:
-->the best we can hope for in the next patch is fixing the lag and the bad team balances,,, maybey even the lighting,,,,,,,,,, then hopfully after that the can work on the acctual game, like makign capturing a planet more interesting, or at least more visually apeeling, no, a yellow diamon that has a couple greend diamonds on it will take over the planet "soemtime"
Harg says:
-->that is sad
Harg says:
-->so is captureing a ship
craige1 says:
-->i know, reminds me of the next gen games after PONG!
craige1 says:
-->how the hell is that supose to work anyway, does the enemy ship just exploded, or just drift in space, the best thign i can see is that the ship auto pilots itself to a port with no benfit watso eva other then to be vissally appeling
Harg says:
-->i captured a ship this morning
craige1 says:
-->i unloaded 10 heavy inf onto a scout ship and nothing happend
Harg says:
-->i ithink it just disappeared
craige1 says:
-->thast even worse
Harg says:
-->it was to fair away since it was running
Harg says:
-->but i got points for captureing it
Harg says:
-->so something happened to it
craige1 says:
-->it doesnt even bother to explod, it just vanashse, its virtual exsitence wiped with no effect on the metaverse
craige1 says:
-->i know that the units can damage the ships sencors
craige1 says:
-->really great thing since they get repiared in under 2 secs
Harg says:
-->yeah
Harg says:
-->i thing is how are people might to kill other people. Take us for example, the ships we are give do nothing to anyone. that is not fair since we cant get the better fighting ships since we cant damage them in the first place
craige1 says:
-->yeah
craige1 says:
-->the small, medium and large ships thing is cool and all, but it only works when theres heaps of players, atm its small ships suck, and u have to put up with it untill u u get a ship worth using, it would be allright f there were heaps of other players, then we could go around with a bunch of small ships and take out some big ships, even take on planets, maybe even sectors, with our numbers, instea
craige1 says:
-->instead of having to rely on the big guys to do stuff and just see if u can get the scraps
Harg says:
-->yeah
Harg says:
-->people are so demanding of supply ships though. I was the only one for the whole of the icc. People getting angry cause i wasn't fast enough.
craige1 says:
-->it really sucks atm sincenearly all the players r vetrens, and have bg ships, making our chance of doing anything pritty low
craige1 says:
-->yeah i noticed that too
Harg says:
-->then all the big players pulled out there support stations and i ended up doing nothing
craige1 says:
-->"im gona give up calling for help since nobies coming"
craige1 says:
-->nobodies*
Harg says:
-->ha ha ha ha
craige1 says:
-->the game, with its low numbers, could work better if everybody got the same hull, but better players could get better wepons and stuff, it just stupid to have all these diffrent ships and stuff with so few palyers
craige1 says:
-->ya knwo what im goan do
craige1 says:
-->im gona copy this convo and paste it in the forums as to show wat a coupel of newbies think about the game
Harg says:
-->good idea
craige1 says:
-->im expecting heaps of critics tho
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[ This Message was edited by: craige1 on 2005-08-28 06:48 ]
_________________
|
GothThug {C?}
Fleet Admiral
Joined: June 29, 2005
Posts: 2932
| Posted: 2005-08-28 07:16
oh...my...god.... speaking as a vet of DS i can say this...this game does have its issues but..aside from the game and its LAG issues its lack of team play and the horrible planetary defenses spewing things at you is the community we have a family like community here however we do have our disagreements and sometimes we can speak freely about them to a moderator or an administrator sometimes to even the great one himself...Faustus.
so anyways, craige1 i like yer commentary but you fail to see the logic in the game itself but if you can give some of your ideas in this thread please do so. 
_________________
|
Harg_Omega
Cadet
Joined: August 21, 2005
Posts: 3
| Posted: 2005-08-28 07:27
Hey im in that convo cooooooool. I like in the mess.
Hey Fatal GothThug{C?} u didn't include me in your post now i feel all alone.  I go hide in corner for a day with my cat.
Ha i also stole craige1's sig 
I love messing things up
[ This Message was edited by: Harg_Omega on 2005-08-28 07:29 ]
_________________
Fear my soul, for its emptyness shall devour yours.
|
craige1
Cadet
Joined: August 11, 2005
Posts: 2
| Posted: 2005-08-28 07:42
ignor my nutty freind above.
i would love to give ideas and such but im very tired right now. ill explan more in 2 days or so
_________________
|
Sixkiller
Marshal
Courageous Elite Commandos
Joined: May 11, 2005
Posts: 1786
From: Netherlands
| Posted: 2005-08-28 07:46
well i didnt even completely read it and i found about 10 things in it that arent true.
You say you cant get bigger ships cose you cant damage the others, wrong. You can a) go to noobie server
b) do something else then fighting, like capturing, engineering or supping
c) just go fighting in MV with a small ship. Dont say you cant, i've been doing it for 2 weeks now.
d) i looked at your profile, and your not subbed, or your not using a coupon. Meaning you cant gain any prestige anyway!
You say lag cant build up. Thats not true. If i give you 5 things to calculate every second, and you only do 1, things are starting to build up. Calculating is what CPU does.
I dont have a clue what your talking about with the lightning, but the game looks good for me (you might wanna try a better graphic card and higher settings)
[ This Message was edited by: Sixkiller[*CEC*] on 2005-08-28 07:47 ]
_________________
|
Harg_Omega
Cadet
Joined: August 21, 2005
Posts: 3
| Posted: 2005-08-28 07:48
Quote:
|
On 2005-08-28 07:42, craige1 wrote:
ignor my nutty freind above.
|
|
I not a nut. "Just a little bit special"
"I'm happy, I felling glad, I got sunshine in a bag, I useless, but not for long, the future is coming on."
P.S. If u post in this topic include me in it some how.
P.P.S. Post in this topic.
_________________
Fear my soul, for its emptyness shall devour yours.
|
The Mark
Cadet
Joined: August 27, 2005
Posts: 5
| Posted: 2005-08-28 08:38
Hmm. Well, I tend to agree that Harg is a little nuts atm.........no offense Harg. However, craige has made some points that I tend to agree with (in his chat log).
I don't feel like qoting here, so i'll put it in my own words.
Some facts:
1. I've only been playing DS for about a week (therefore, I am a newbie)
2. It seemed fun at first, at least in the newbie server (the MV is another story, more later)
Now for some opinion/fact/story combos of mine. (I, of course, think that they have merit and alot of others will agree with me)
1. I ranked up to commander in the newbieverse. Moving to the MV was exciting for me, since I would no longer have to load each system, I would be able to get bigger ships (I thought, and was partly correct), and would have more enemies to fight.
After a few days in the MV, I had killed 1-2 ships max (maybe less), and had been killed about 20 times or so (I don't know about everyone else, but getting killed is not considered fun in my book).
I started getting killed less once I moved away from combat and towards engineering, supply, extracting, ect. Boring sometimes, but safer.
Hmm, this is getting alittle long.....I could probably sit here for hours typing about my problems, but who wants to read that?
Ok................I will take an evening not to long ago wherein I was playing in the MV. There were about 3 UGTO dreads in system (I liked playing ICC, did I mention that before?), and a lot of other smaller ships. Now, this should have been a place where a newbie could have some fun, attacking the smaller ships with some others around his rank, watching dreads battle it out, supplying them if needed (and if he had a supply ship). Sounds fun, dosen't it? But no. There were no heavy ICC ships at all(except a few cruisers), very few small ones, and the UGTO were working as a great team, dictoring the gate area so no one could escape the system (unless you wanted to go into enemy space), while their combat ships killed the ones who tried (like me, in my escort dessy).
Now, this would have been a great time for high ranking ICC to spawn a station, some dreads and smaller capital ships, gather the newbies together with kind words and encouragement, and wormhole into the system behind the UGTO (Who says WH messed up the game and destroyed tactics, we just will use new tactics now), maybe leaving a dread with some support on the other side of the gate to blast any UGTO who tried to escape.
However, nothing of the sort happened. There were not enough ICC online, for one thing. And for another, the highest lvl ships I saw were cruisers (I heard one person in chat mention that the high ranking ICC didn't want to lose pres, so they wouldn't use dreads). So, we low level guys fly around in escort dessies, hoping to get a small UGTO alone or with little help. Ha. The UGTO were very well organised, under the leadership of their dreads and such. If only we had some dreads of our own to take the fight too them, instead of nipping at their flanks while they rolled over the system.
To finish off this .......umm, i guess it is a rant.......alot of the icc who were in-game decided to go to the newbie verse so that they could have fun.
I was so unhappy (read: pissed) that I decided to creat a new account and start over in the newbie verse. However, the commanders and such who were in the newbieverse made the newbieverse less fun. (one guy brought a missile dessy in, what fun is that to newbies who have scouts and such.
My conclusions: The MV is not as fun as in the past (I guess, i've heard such things in the forums), causing less players to be online (who wants to play a non-fun game?). Therefore, with less players online, and alot of them on UGTO, the newbies who want to play ICC get killed multiple times (even if engineering or supplying---I should know).
And if the newbies go back to the newbie verse at commander rank, it makes the newbie verse less fun for the brand new newbies.....heh.
Hmm, maybe I should post about my reasons for thinking the game is not fun.........ahh i'll do that later.
hmm, i don't hav a sig yet.....hows this.
THE MARK. If you point and click at me, I shall die
as in, the mark in the middle of a target.......but nvr mind.
[ This Message was edited by: The Mark on 2005-08-28 08:39 ]
_________________
THE MARK. If you point and click me.......your mouse cursor will change to a hourglass.........permanently. Mwahahahahahaha!
|
Bandit
Cadet
Joined: May 25, 2004
Posts: 165
From: Under a rock
| Posted: 2005-08-28 09:26
Mark, I have seen you around the noob server the last few days. You were complaing about jumping into planets. I jumped into a few myself yesterday due to the lag. I had a clear line of sight to my destination when I hit my jump button, as my ship turned to jump I was instantly on the other side of planet, now with the planet in my path and no time to abort jump. I agree that the game is not much fun sometimes in its current version but you can still have fun. This game is team based and not to much fun for loners. Sadly, there isnt many people in the noob server that will play as a team. ONE time on ONE map did I finally get them to play as a team with me and it was great!
Mark, the next time you see me on noob server, I will help you with what ever you need help with. I will be YOUR wing man so you can get a few kills in, deal?
_________________
|
BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-08-28 09:44
Quote:
|
On 2005-08-28 08:38, The Mark wrote:
Hmm. Well, I tend to agree that Harg is a little nuts atm.........no offense Harg. However, craige has made some points that I tend to agree with (in his chat log).
I don't feel like qoting here, so i'll put it in my own words.
Some facts:
1. I've only been playing DS for about a week (therefore, I am a newbie)
2. It seemed fun at first, at least in the newbie server (the MV is another story, more later)
Now for some opinion/fact/story combos of mine. (I, of course, think that they have merit and alot of others will agree with me)
1. I ranked up to commander in the newbieverse. Moving to the MV was exciting for me, since I would no longer have to load each system, I would be able to get bigger ships (I thought, and was partly correct), and would have more enemies to fight.
After a few days in the MV, I had killed 1-2 ships max (maybe less), and had been killed about 20 times or so (I don't know about everyone else, but getting killed is not considered fun in my book).
I started getting killed less once I moved away from combat and towards engineering, supply, extracting, ect. Boring sometimes, but safer.
Hmm, this is getting alittle long.....I could probably sit here for hours typing about my problems, but who wants to read that?
Ok................I will take an evening not to long ago wherein I was playing in the MV. There were about 3 UGTO dreads in system (I liked playing ICC, did I mention that before?), and a lot of other smaller ships. Now, this should have been a place where a newbie could have some fun, attacking the smaller ships with some others around his rank, watching dreads battle it out, supplying them if needed (and if he had a supply ship). Sounds fun, dosen't it? But no. There were no heavy ICC ships at all(except a few cruisers), very few small ones, and the UGTO were working as a great team, dictoring the gate area so no one could escape the system (unless you wanted to go into enemy space), while their combat ships killed the ones who tried (like me, in my escort dessy).
Now, this would have been a great time for high ranking ICC to spawn a station, some dreads and smaller capital ships, gather the newbies together with kind words and encouragement, and wormhole into the system behind the UGTO (Who says WH messed up the game and destroyed tactics, we just will use new tactics now), maybe leaving a dread with some support on the other side of the gate to blast any UGTO who tried to escape.
However, nothing of the sort happened. There were not enough ICC online, for one thing. And for another, the highest lvl ships I saw were cruisers (I heard one person in chat mention that the high ranking ICC didn't want to lose pres, so they wouldn't use dreads). So, we low level guys fly around in escort dessies, hoping to get a small UGTO alone or with little help. Ha. The UGTO were very well organised, under the leadership of their dreads and such. If only we had some dreads of our own to take the fight too them, instead of nipping at their flanks while they rolled over the system.
To finish off this .......umm, i guess it is a rant.......alot of the icc who were in-game decided to go to the newbie verse so that they could have fun.
I was so unhappy (read: pissed) that I decided to creat a new account and start over in the newbie verse. However, the commanders and such who were in the newbieverse made the newbieverse less fun. (one guy brought a missile dessy in, what fun is that to newbies who have scouts and such.
My conclusions: The MV is not as fun as in the past (I guess, i've heard such things in the forums), causing less players to be online (who wants to play a non-fun game?). Therefore, with less players online, and alot of them on UGTO, the newbies who want to play ICC get killed multiple times (even if engineering or supplying---I should know).
And if the newbies go back to the newbie verse at commander rank, it makes the newbie verse less fun for the brand new newbies.....heh.
Hmm, maybe I should post about my reasons for thinking the game is not fun.........ahh i'll do that later.
hmm, i don't hav a sig yet.....hows this.
THE MARK. If you point and click at me, I shall die
as in, the mark in the middle of a target.......but nvr mind.
[ This Message was edited by: The Mark on 2005-08-28 08:39 ]
|
|
Mark, you seem to have a pretty good head on you. Point being that ICC dont have any shipyards at the moment, and not many ICC players want to bring out their moded stations and risk losing them (it costs about 500-600 prestige to die in a station).
Im still impressed by some of your post.
Some of it however...
In the MV, as a noob, you need to expect to die if you go into combat, there are lots, and lots of combat trained players. It doesnt take long, but as a noob, its best to just engineer, supply and watch other players and most important of all, WATCH THE BATTLEFIELD. If a dread comes close to you, he's gonna target you, and your gonna die. You need to watch out for that, dodge incoming fire, whilst laying down some yourself. This takes time to learn, but not months, or weeks.
I could teach you some things if you want, PM me sometime or grab me in GCQL.
_________________
|
Drafell
Grand Admiral
Mythica
Joined: May 30, 2003
Posts: 2449
From: United Kingdom
| Posted: 2005-08-28 09:44
I skimmed most of this thread so I may have missed some stuff, but I would like to pick out a few points.
1) The lag in DS has always been bad unless you are running a single zone server. Things have improved, but if it was possible to blend the client side movement and server side movement forms a little better, then I think people would be able to work with it a little more (IE a cross between 1.483 and 1.482). I really don't know if this is possible. I liked being able to see when I was lagging in 1.482, but I also like not having my ship control locked in 1.483.
What I really hate is suddenly warping over 1kgu from where you thought you were and into a planet. But then this is something we experienced back in the 1.480 'Golden Days'.
This whole situation was NOT better back then, just different.
Overall IMO, the game has improved and moved on, and it is getting where it needs to go, although somewhat slowly.
Although osme of the DS lag is due to buggy coding, a lot of it is not. EvE does a good job of hiding thier lag as you dont have direct control of your ship. The same applies to vitrually every other MMO out there. You click a button and the combat is handled by AI and dice roll. In DS you actually have to dodge and being hit isnt determined by a die but about whether you make that turn just right and jink your ship to evade that swarm of missiles coming after your butt. It is realtime physics. It is ALL direct control.
EvE uses a virtual physics model. Even when you are going in circles very fast, it just adds a speed modifier to the dice roll. There is ZERO direct control.
With games that utilise direct control (IE twich based)lag is very noticable and extremley hard to hide. That is why most twitch games are limited to 30-40 people max.
With games that are server processed you can hide the lag and response times. EvE does this in a clever manner with the loading and response times for various features being integrated into the gameplay. Thing do not update in the game menues unless you manually refresh.
With DS all the features are live and realtime. You click and get instant access and they update constantly while you are viewing or using them.
The server implementation of DarkSpace is designed so that any person can host a server. This means that all features need to integrated into the realtime environment and that you cannot have dedicated servers dealing with the resource updates or the planet/ship AI. Everything has to be handled live.
In my view Richard has done a remarkable job so far in programming this backend on his own. It may not be perfect, but with one guy(and his pet monkey - sry Tael!) doing all the work you cannot expect miracles. This game doesn't have the multi-millon dollar budgets other MMO's have for development.
2) Resources. There are several reasons for these changes. Due to the way the server architecture works then everything is run in the same process for one zone. With large buildups of items and resources in the Starports the load on the MV server grows; load = more lag. Some people see removing multiple resource types as a bad move. Although I can see the arguments for this position, I can also see the benefits a change in how we manage resources and ship upgrades could bring.
The first benefit will be that modding will be much easier and more intuitive. Just orbit a planet, right click a device, and choose what to replace it with. No waiting for build times, no learning how to use a factory. This system will be much easier for ewwer players to grasp and will help people get to the fun elements of DarkSpace (ie. combat).
The second benefit is that planets will no longer have to keep track of thier item stockpile. There will be no items there to take up server resources. Instead of tracking more 50 stacks of items per planet, with some being in excess of 100 million units. It will just have to track and update the one stack. As no one seems to trade anyway, there is no real big loss to this. This will basically free up a large amount of the real time processing resources on the server.
3) More strategy. With the planned changes certain planets will be more strategically important than others and there will be big fights over them. Currently you can build a shipyard and factory anywhere, and providing the resources are available you will be able to manufacture anything on that planet. With the new system only certain planets will have the resource flags to be able to make some upgrades or spawn various speciality ships. For these planets there will be a LOT of fighting.
4) Small Vs Big. Scouts and Frigates are now effective in MV. You can fight and do some damage in them and you wont necessarily die in one hit unless you come face to face with a Dreadnought or Station. Even then you still have a reasonable chance of survival. Frigate wolfpacks are seriously lethal and badly underestimated.
As everyone with the rank insists on flying Cruisers and Dreads in MV, they are a badly overlooked option. The few times I have died in my Interceptor Frigate is when I was daft enough to get close to Kluth Def bases or I got hit with the splash damage of a superweapon (both friendly AND enemy :-/ ). Believe it or not, two skilled pilots in Interceptors can take down ANY dread. It takes a serious amount of time but it can be done. And yes, we have done this VS some very capable and skilled dread pilots, although usually these players will get out when they realise they are getting beat.
*EDIT* P.S. One last point. I may not be entirely accurate in some of my statements, but this is information I have gathered and worked out in my time playing DS and seeing the games development progress. Please feel free to correct any mistakes I have made here.
I just hope this helps people to understand why certain decisions have been made, and why the game has the issues people complain about.
[ This Message was edited by: Drafell on 2005-08-28 09:50 ]
_________________
It's gone now, no longer here...Yet still I see, and still I fear.rnrn
rnrn
DarkSpace Developer - Retired
|
BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-08-28 09:57
I worked with Draf for the next version proposal, so, I agree with everything he said
Although, I dont think frigates really aught to be able to do much damage to a dread.
_________________
|
Drafell
Grand Admiral
Mythica
Joined: May 30, 2003
Posts: 2449
From: United Kingdom
| Posted: 2005-08-28 10:05
A single Frigate can't. Two very skilled frigate pilots can just about match a dread but I will not pretend it's and easy feat to achieve. A pack of 4+ Frigates is where you start to get into the combat effective zone. Still not easy or fast, but you do have a more confident chance of success.
_________________
It's gone now, no longer here...Yet still I see, and still I fear.rnrn
rnrn
DarkSpace Developer - Retired
|
Sixkiller
Marshal
Courageous Elite Commandos
Joined: May 11, 2005
Posts: 1786
From: Netherlands
| Posted: 2005-08-28 10:13
now whats the use of interceptor frigate above assault corvette? it aint that different, and corvette dodges way better.
_________________
|
Doran
Chief Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 29, 2003
Posts: 4032
From: The Gideon Unit
| Posted: 2005-08-28 10:37
frigate has flux, twice as much front and rear armor as the scout and 1 more torp. additionally the scouts 2 torps are both fore arc, frigates 3 are FL, F and FR. frigates are only slightly slower than scouts at 30gu/s on IEs, 32.4/gus on AMEs
i prefer frigates vs kluth and salt scouts vs icc
_________________
|
Drafell
Grand Admiral
Mythica
Joined: May 30, 2003
Posts: 2449
From: United Kingdom
| Posted: 2005-08-28 10:39
Assault Scout
Pretty much limited to forward fire only, single layer of armor.
Interceptor Frigate
Extra Torp slot, better firearcs and more front/rear armor. Much better for chasing down ships and the extra front/rear facings allow you to soak that extra bit of damage when in pursuit.
Flux Wave - Vs icc who rotate shields to cover the rear arc you can use the superior speed of the frigate to get on their red arc and flux them. Thier ship now has no systems and is a sitting duck. Not so effective vs K'luth but still annoying for them
_________________
It's gone now, no longer here...Yet still I see, and still I fear.rnrn
rnrn
DarkSpace Developer - Retired
|
|
English
Deutsch
Nederlands
)
