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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
|  Posted: 2005-08-21 01:28
...uh...someone.
I recently entered into the struggled throes of discussion with kenetiks (with a k dammit not a c), and thus landed upon the topic of something which has also indeed been on quite of few of our minds.
Hence the subject of debate today are Wormholes and Shipyards.
Since the entry of Shipyards and Wormholes there has been the constant neverending problems, one of them throwing out DS tactics in a hailstorm of angry curses.
How Wormholes contribute to the imbalence (and unfortunate demise) of DS tactics...
It does really, a gadget which can transport any ship at all across multiple systems to an enemy homesystem..without ever once running into an enemy ship.
...
Okay that didn't sound so bad until this moment why? Because I look back into 1.480 and before then and realized some of the most important tactics and many many of the more fun elements were invalidated.
How so? If anyone remember Gatecamping, Bottlenecking, and other assorted forces of which made the game interesting were gone. Why gatecamp when you can just wormhole around? Not only that, but this allows for any fleet to quickly and easily take out any system at their desposal, never once having to fight their way for it...
Such older tactics made the game fun, hence now just causes more imbalences, for I don't really agree with that an enemy fleet should be able to easily hop to an enemy homesystem within the blink of an eye, let alone without resistance.
So my vote? Take out wormholes! Damn them to the firey pits of hell and let them never return.
How Shipyards contribute to game imbalences and the demise of tactics...
This is also unfortunately true.
Back in older days, you had only one place to spawn, your jumpgate, deep in your homesystem. Your homesystem was often your mod center too, and the place where almost every fleet strike began.
This meant you had only THIS place to spawn, you could not instantly appear anywhere in the MV just because you had the resources, no, you started in your homesystem, and traveled by jumpgates to any other system you wished.
That tactics here were thrown out that any enemy could instantly appear to defend, and that any suprise attack really didn't buy time. I do dislike the idea that any system can be insta-defended because of that, I do miss how it was, and how it was worked so incredibly well.
Not only that, but that you still CAN enter a shipyard, no matter what. Another way to be called a readymade escape for anyone with the access.
So getting rid of shipyards? With the reimplementation of the old resource system, I would give the go-ahead to get rid of this too...
While It may seem radical - those who were here from way back when, only you guys can really understand what I mean by how fun it was, as well as the tactical value of a MV..without Wormholes or Shipyards.
-Ent
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kenetiks
Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: November 21, 2001
Posts: 1130
From: Bandcamp
| Posted: 2005-08-21 01:35
As me and Ent were discussing, his post hits on all the major points I could think of.
This would get my total support.
As Faustus had posted, he was considering dropping modding because of balance and "fun" issues. I hadn't said anything till now, but it isn't the modding thats bothersome, it's the metaverse to put it bluntly. It's the reason I don't play. There are no tactics, and there is no fun.
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Distel {Combat BUMpkin} Stolz
Cadet
ExtraTerrestrial Space Bums
Joined: April 04, 2003
Posts: 85
| Posted: 2005-08-21 01:52
Couldn't agree with you more. I loved the massive battles over a contested system, having to travel long distances with great stealth to strike at an enemy's backwater planets, and the true need for team play in the pre-WH/pre-SY MV. Furthermore, I believe that without WH's and SY's there was real purpose to the mission system (which, except for locking planets, was the only obvious use of rank in the game)...and it would be nice to have that aspect of the game return as well.
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Knight_Arthur {C?}
Marshal
Joined: August 11, 2002
Posts: 30
| Posted: 2005-08-21 02:27
ahh..yes..the old days of ds were great indeed. Every word said here, I agree with. I miss the version i started out playing years ago. 1 topic however wasnt mentioned here that i think is important. The Fa server as it was. The old Fa server was instant action. Anywhere from 50-100 people were in there supping,bombing, and fighting. New players could easily learn every aspect of the game in a 2 hour session. It was fun.
I hope they do away with the WH and SY. As for modding of ships...I liked the fact it cost so much to mod. It grew increasingly more expensive for each additional lvl of an item....i like that...now everyone in the mv is flying around with lvl 10 everything....only problem was no real way to earn credits (old school missions would have fixed this).
Back in my day son i had ta fly 50mill gu ..travel through 15 enemy systems and countless enemy combat ships surrounded each gate on the way... i could buy an ame for 5 cents..ahh u youngsters have it easy.....
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Philky!
Joined: July 19, 2004
Posts: 90
| Posted: 2005-08-21 04:08
I say stuff like this all of the time, but no one listens to Antdizzle. Maybe I should have Enterprise tell everyone what I think so people would listen.
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Captain Sternn
Grand Admiral
Joined: March 18, 2004
Posts: 225
| Posted: 2005-08-21 04:22
I agree that this would add more strategy to gameplay and big battles over a key star would be fun...but just a thought with the kluths new cloak wouldnt it make it too easy to strike at backwater systems when they dont want to be seen they arent ...i think this would give them a big advantage being able to sneak behind the lines at will and with no quick way to get there to defend.
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c0ld
Midshipman
Joined: June 24, 2003
Posts: 342
From: UK
| Posted: 2005-08-21 04:59
/Signed
Although I think most players who were around before SYs and WHs would agree. But the fact remains the F put alot of effort into implementing them and despite all the bugs and exploits they are responsible for, they have stayed.
I think they were designed to make the game more fun, but they ended up doing the opposite.
The problem imo, stems from the drive to make 'getting into battle' quicker and easier. If you assume that the fun element in darkspace is the fighing, then it makes sense to allow the player to do more of it. But in reality it doesn't work like that.
The fun factor in darkspace is not so much in the battle itself, but also in the build-up to a good battle. The modding is part of that imo, customising a ship makes the player think about the weakness and strengths of his ship and they can then test theories in battle.
Spawning from a home system and travelling to the front was also part of the build-up. It had many positive effects on game play.
There are those that think that insta-fighting is a good thing, and the old FA servers are often used to back up the case. But even they had a large degree of build up. It took a good hour to build core planets, amidst bombing raids etc. Then there was the battle to steal an alien planet, weather to get AM tech if you were human or to get CLs if you were kluth. Only after all this did the really good battles begin, usually in the last hour of the map.
I think that the fun in darkspace is not in the battles themselves, but in the tactics that underlie them and lead up to them. Wormholes and Shipyards are a serious detriment to the game mechanics precisely because the make fighting too quick and too easy.
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|2eason
Grand Admiral
Agents
Joined: September 30, 2001
Posts: 1252
From: Wisconsin, US
| Posted: 2005-08-21 08:02
Hmm...
Wormholes: Get rid of the damn things. They play to those that have long since left. Junk them.
Shipyards: The version of "shipyard" currently in the game does not fit the definition of the "shipyard" Selvarian and myself thought up and discussed several years ago. The "shipyard" that was discussed was a "logical way" for ships to spawn into the game, rather then from a gate. That idea was warped into the version you see today in order to help bring "FA Style" gameplay into the MV. Pitch what is currently defined as "shipyards".
I think you have hit some of the proverbial "nails" on the head reguarding some of the issues surrounding these items.
As for Scenarios vs. the Metaverse, I am glad FA is gone, but alot more should have been done to expand the gameplay so that all of the different play styles that existed in Scenario should have been possible within the Metaverse. An Example: Anything other then combat. I also agree with c0ldfury's view on the MV/Scenario servers.
- |2eason the retired -
Retired Staff-memeber/Darkspace Developer
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-08-21 08:15
What Reason said.
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Coeus {NCX-Charger}
Admiral, I can't read,
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 3635
From: South Philly
| Posted: 2005-08-21 08:22
Well hell doth frozen over twice, I find myself reading all of this & nodding along with pretty much every point made here... what is really scary is that they are being made by Ent & Reason... two people that I have NEVER agreed with...
Heres my take on it, as a newb in terms of how long I played before 481 & SYs/WHs made their entrance. Wormholes - have never been anything but trouble - except when they are a way to get OUT of trouble (send a WH to a ship 2 systems over surrounded by 50 K'Luth - the ship lives & most luth are afraid to enter the WH 'cause of what might be on the other side) which, in my opinion, is a cheap way of denying a gank squad a kill that they earned by sheer numbers. In addition to that, all the points made already about the tactics they destroy. I would like to just point out, because it is a valid arguement whether I like it or not, that WHs also provide a new tactic, a few of them actually - like all defenses flying to the WH in location, WH fishing, things like that. The problem is that while they CAN be valid tactics, they don't bring NEARLY the amount of fun, tactical excitement, or challenge that the old ways brought.
Shipyards - they are completely and utterly broken. I'm not sure what Reason had in mind for how they are to be used, but I do know this - as convient as they are, they destroy a centeral element of realistic possibility (quite an unusual term to use regarding a massively multiplayer online real time space strategy shooter isn't it? I thought so too!) that a lot of sci-fi buffs tend to enjoy in my opinion (I mean, really, MMORPGs aside, where else in the world would you find people who put thought into their ships names & stories like we do here & in other space games?) - coming back to the main point, it thus destroys yet another element of fun.
Bottom line. There are a lot of problems that are keeping DS from reaching its full potential as a game and on the whole Faustus and the dev team have been VERY open to player opinions and thoughts on the matters, moreso than any development team I have ever seen in any game I have ever played (and thats quite a list my friends...)
An issue right now, however, is that Faustus has said plainly and in no uncertain terms that he will not take a step backwards when it comes to the advancement of the engine & game mechanics. The problem that I see is that with gameplay issues as profound and damaging as Shipyards and Wormholes, you might need to hit the old CTRL-Z in order to move forward.
Another issue that this brings to mind is something that was VERY controversial when 1.483 rolled out, and is something that is still an issue even with all the changes. How to properly penalize people who keep pulling out ships and blowing them up to inflict massive damage on the enemy - or keep SYing to avoid dying & bringing out fresh ships to continue the fight. Well, I think the issue speaks for itself on this one... can't abuse an SY if there are none in the game, can you? And you'll be a little less quick to jab that CTRL-D twice when you think of the time it would take you to get to the battle zone.
Sometimes, you have to take a step back in order to move forward. I would hate to think that such a cliche statement would fall on deaf ears.
/signed
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Coharie
Admiral
Joined: October 26, 2004
Posts: 59
From: Fayetteville, North Carolina
| Posted: 2005-08-21 08:38
Though I've only been playing a little less than a year, I agree with removing wormholes from the game, you should have to fight your way through to home systems, or to make sneak attacks, you should have to do long jumps, requiring a fleet to be suited with support vessels for refueling & dodgeing enemy ships, but most of all making it difficult for quick escape, everybody has a job to the fleet to ensure its survival.
How Shipyards contribute to game imbalences and the demise of tactics...
I agree that SY's are abused on a large scale, having ships parked in your garage & being able to spawn in any system with a SY,though ROC does not list this as abuse imo this is & am quilty of it too, I'm not for removing SYs but fix it to where the only time you can use the SY is if you go there & use it, like having ships stationed in that system to defend it much like how the US Navy has ships stationed around the world thats the port they are out of, this would would require more tactics to take & or defend a system.
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|2eason
Grand Admiral
Agents
Joined: September 30, 2001
Posts: 1252
From: Wisconsin, US
| Posted: 2005-08-21 09:13
A quick note while we are on the subject of Wormholes:
Part of the reason the Metaverse in 1.481 was so huge was to help counter-balance out the damn wormhole device. So if you took issue (looking at you Ent) thats partly why it was spread out.
- |2eason the retired -
Retired Staff-member/Darkspace Developer
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Binks
1st Rear Admiral
Joined: November 28, 2003
Posts: 469
| Posted: 2005-08-21 10:03
Ent you are on a roll. I completely agree with this, gate camping has been destroyed by WH's...I'm all for going back to home gate spawning but requireing lots of resources to do it. The one thing that would need to be done if WH's were removed would be to add more gates between some systems (so that the MV was more like the old one, you could JG to any system except 1 or two which were jumpable from multiple systems).
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Koda
Marshal
Fatal Squadron
Joined: August 29, 2002
Posts: 1384
| Posted: 2005-08-21 11:44
Wormholes were loved by alot of players back in the day because of the gate campers. Be it with a Cl2k kluth Dessy or a ICC/UGTO nuke minner.
There was always Long jumping, but Everyone was usually in FA, so having a m8 be a supply was iffy at best. It was always nice to get to a Hydrogen planet and fuel back up the ol' JD.
As for my personal view on WH/SY's.
WH's have been fun, but i wont be sad to see them go. I dont like gate campers. I dont even like the gate system. IMHO i think it goes hand in hand with wh's & sy's .
SY's, Theres nothing funnier than playing DS. Watching a Planet sized station pop outta a cruiser sized world. I bet that was a hard berth. SY's spawing is screwy. You can log out anyship and have it be on the Front in a matter of minuets. And just Cut out Wh's and gates all together.
move SY's to space, where they belong.
Buildable gates.. fine with me, i know how to hit the space bar.
WH's, only good tactical use ive seen is to rescue a traped ally. Fine with me if they go.
My vote is always for more realism when it comes to this game.
-Charz
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2005-08-21 15:57
onea the reasons WHs were put in and JGs taken out was sync issues between servers.
perhaps make WHs only able to jump one system at a time. ie limit their range so you could only use them as though they were JGs. making them really obvious to everyone playing would be helpful too, that way using them to attack somewhere would attract you a lot of attention.
also, making it so you can only build so many SYs per # of systems you own would be wise too. this would add a strategic importance to capturing territory instead of just nuking it, as well as give engies headaches trying to figure out the best spots to build SYs =P
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