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Please no Faustus! |
Coeus {NCX-Charger}
Admiral, I can't read,
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 3635
From: South Philly
|  Posted: 2005-08-07 17:42
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How retired are you again reason? Just wondering...
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Darkspace: Twilight
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-08-07 17:54
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On 2005-08-07 17:36, |2eason wrote:
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On 2005-08-07 13:31, BackSlash *Jack* wrote:
When new resources came out in 1.481, a lot of things started taking away the aspect of combat, which is what darkspace is all about. Simplifying the resources system back to how it was indended, not only reduces lag (because resources are updated live in the server, the more resources, the more time the CPU spends on updating them (and from what I hear the updating is LIVE aka realtime)).
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Excuse me, but you are dead wrong.
First off, I seem to recall this is a space strategy game, not "Quakespace". This game never was "all about combat". That is what made this game the best out there.
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Its a space combat game that involvs strategy, just like 90% of games out there, the main focus of the game IS combat, thats what I meant.
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Second, what do you mean as it is intended? If it was intended all along it wouldn't have been changed in the first place.
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Well darkspace was never meant to be uber complicated was it?
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I dont know where you have been getting your info, but you might want to verify things first before making such outlandish statements.
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The rest of the info I got from staff...The resources, are correct, when in the MV and a side didnth ave enough planets (rarely, but you might remember it happpening when the MV got rebooted), when you tried to get a station out it said "Invalid resoruces" with the "Resources" value in the top right of the screen.
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Aside from that, reducing features isn't the right solution to a netcode problem, IMO.
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It isnt reducing, its simplifying, the two things are completly different. The changes would HELP reduce the lag to my knowledge, it isnt a solution to the lag problems, its to help simplify the game, and keep things simple for new comers.
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash *Jack* on 2005-08-07 17:56 ]
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Binks
1st Rear Admiral
Joined: November 28, 2003
Posts: 469
| Posted: 2005-08-07 18:38
While I still hate the idea of losing the one non-combat area where strategy is somewhat involved
(and if you think engineering is not strategic, you need to go build more, especially try building two planets at once, there's always the "Should I move the DM from X moon to X planet and put the shield gen on the planet, or put a shield gen on the moon and hope they go after it rather than the planet...hmmm" and many other decisions. Engineering is all about deciding what planet to build, what to build, and where, and if you don't consider that a strategic aspect of gameplay then you need to go look up strategic...)
If it's already decided then I guess the arguement it worthless until after the system is debutted...but I have two last statements.
First off, yeah, this is gonna cut lag a little...but no where near as much as the new modding system (yay new modding system!) will. I'm relatively sure that after the new modding system is done lag will drop a good deal.
And secondly while this game is about the MV, the scenario servers are there and they provide a much different form of gameplay. The MV is the huge fleet oriented area, and the scenarios are the small, learn what you're doing and have fun place. The MV is not all that much fun, it's too much work when you get right down to it...I treat the MV as a place to go when I want to help out, and the scenario as a place to go when I want to have fun. The scenario servers are not irrelivent to the game just becuase the MV is the main area...would you consider Desert Combat's servers (big mod for bf1942 in case you never leave the DS website) irrelivent just because they weren't the main game, the MV of 42 as it were...no way, DC and other mods brought a different aspect of gameplay to 42, in the same way the scenarios bring a different aspect of gameplay to DS...
That said, while I'm still against 1 resource, the other changes, new modding (which was the one posted suggestion in that thread I loved...the new system sounds much better) and platforms sound awesome, and I can't wait for the beta for the new patch in 2 weeks or so (:P)...oh...and the coupon was very nice...and nicely timed as in a week or so I'll be able to sub...mwahahaha!
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Coeus {NCX-Charger}
Admiral, I can't read,
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 3635
From: South Philly
| Posted: 2005-08-08 07:38
Comparing DS to a massively advertised & extremely funded FPS is ... well... lets just say you're not adding any weight to your arguements. As for the rest MV based game, wish you could come to grips with that.
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Darkspace: Twilight
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|2eason
Grand Admiral
Agents
Joined: September 30, 2001
Posts: 1252
From: Wisconsin, US
| Posted: 2005-08-08 11:11
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On 2005-08-07 17:42, Coeus wrote:
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How retired are you again reason? Just wondering...
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I am retired from playing DS, also retired from staff.
That answer your question?
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On 2005-08-07 17:54, BackSlash *Jack* wrote:
Its a space combat game that involvs strategy, just like 90% of games out there, the main focus of the game IS combat, thats what I meant.
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"Strategy" in this game died with the 1.3 patch. In fact, I believe it actually died when DS went P2P (Pay to Play) and was released. The level of strategy IMO has been far below since and has never come close to overtaking the strategy of the past.
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Well darkspace was never meant to be uber complicated was it?
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Uber-complicated, eh? DS has always had a steep learning curve not to mention more complicated parts to please those looking for that type of play. DS was a mix of simplicity and more complex areas.
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The rest of the info I got from staff...The resources, are correct, when in the MV and a side didnth ave enough planets (rarely, but you might remember it happpening when the MV got rebooted), when you tried to get a station out it said "Invalid resoruces" with the "Resources" value in the top right of the screen.
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That system was from a long time ago. It was also quite flawed, since someone would ruin it for the whole team by taking high ships and getting them killed right away. That system was geared for the Scenario servers, NOT the MV. That is partly why it was phased out, I believe. There were several different systems that were tried out, not just the one you alluded to.
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It isnt reducing, its simplifying, the two things are completly different. The changes would HELP reduce the lag to my knowledge, it isnt a solution to the lag problems, its to help simplify the game, and keep things simple for new comers.
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There is more to this then I care to discuss.
- |2eason the retired -
[ This Message was edited by: |2eason on 2005-08-08 11:30 ]
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[-[A]-]|2eason the retired
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Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2005-08-08 11:39
The misinformation in this thread is just so, so, obvious. But than again, it shows me whos played this game before 1.480 and who hasnt. Let me correct a few things.
The old system utilized simply 'Resources', Hydrogen, Oxygen, Metals, Heavy Metals, Hypermatter, Darkmatter, Cryometals, and Urdanium tags still existed in planets. These specialized resources determined how much per tick a Mine on a planet mined. Factories always mined +10 to a planet no matter what, Mines mined according to the resources on the planet. The present of urdanium, for example, gave mines a bonus of +50. Darkmatter was +10 I beleive, so if there was Darkmatter and Urdanium on a planet, the mines would mine +60.
At 1.3, This system was abolished for a system with approximately 20-30 resources. There was the eight basic resources, than a dozen or so resources that could be manufactured from these resources.
However, newbies whining about the complexity of the scheme of things in 1.3 made Faustus changed it to the current, dumbed down system in 1.4 with only the eight basic resources. Nothing significant has changed about the resourcing system since.
I would be very, very suprized if it was changed back to the old system. As far as I knew, a 'planetary' patch was supposed to make it into something similar to 1.3 again. However, this is Faustus's game, if he wishes to take a step back, I wont stop him.
[ This Message was edited by: RedXIII on 2005-08-08 11:45 ]
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NoPants2win
Cadet
Joined: February 23, 2002
Posts: 1275
From: Poorly ventilated paint storage facility.
| Posted: 2005-08-08 14:54
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Because, you know, he like, runs all those decisions through you.
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Rinzler
Vice Admiral
Joined: January 15, 2005
Posts: 13
| Posted: 2005-08-08 15:07
[My 2 Cents]
I've also received the email about new platforms and the change in resources. From the perspective of a newcomer, Darkspace as a whole has alot to try to wrap one's mind arround. On many occasions I have found myself sitting back and taking a second or forth look at posibilitys, and that just concerns navigating a jump.
As sad as I am to see the tacticle side of cutting off your enemys supplies (of a certian resource) being takken away, I still dont think it will hurt this game as a whole. My reasoning on this is that the MV is completly connected to every player in some way, shape or form. If your a newb, you rely on the gates, if your experenced, you have the gates or a WormHole to anywhere you wish to go. When one thinks of the tactics of a real fight, and what a realistic space sim would be, even the mear thought of having a FTL (Faster Than Light) Drive seems a far reach in my mind. Not to mention being able to create a stable WormHole and then putting your ship through it. So, as for there ever really being a great advantage to cutting off a factions supply route.. Ive seen very little of it.
As one who looks for meaning in battle ( not worrying about if I am the lucky player to get the points for the planet capture ), I do see this "simplifacation" to the overall strategy of the Metaverse to be headed in the wrong direction ( Why rent a dance hall and then play only ABBA all night? ). I can honestly say that I enjoy the full beauty that the metaverse has to offer. Everything from the color of the nebula down to the enjoyment of seeing the city lights that cover the dark side of the Earth. It is only these beautiful sceens that people now protect. Having no personal stake in these areas beyond that is what I worry about. In my mind it all comes down to a question of what is the future of this game?
Without the variables of multiple resources needed to spawn a ship in a Ship Yard. I can see no further need for people to be limited by the spawn gates in the selection of ships (Granted that they are of the right stuff to pilot that said ship class). If the aim is for players to be able to have a pure combat situation, it makes more sense in my mind that people not be limited by the left overs of a past plan (from what I have read ). Almost in the same way that putting in Shipyards into the Scenario Servers really made it alot harder for people to get to higher combat levels ( from what I've heard ).
To wrap this up, I would like to offer an Idea that might satisfy my need to see a reason to fight($suscribe$) and give more emphasis on keeping people out of your home territory beyond ones profile tallys. I would suggest that when ever anyone logs into the MetaVerse that every player no matter what they pull out of a SY or Gate always has a ship in the Meta-verse. They can change ships. They can park the ship. They can set a couse for the ship. They can have a fleet mate watch a certain area of open space that their Clan park their ship at .. BUT before they log for the night .. no matter what... they know that there is a ship in the metaverse that will be in their when they lay their heads down for sleep at night. Something to worry about, and something to protect.
[/My 2 Cents]
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BipBipBip
Grand Admiral
Joined: September 01, 2004
Posts: 43
| Posted: 2005-08-08 16:24
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I would suggest that when ever anyone logs into the MetaVerse that every player no matter what they pull out of a SY or Gate always has a ship in the Meta-verse. They can change ships. They can park the ship. They can set a couse for the ship. They can have a fleet mate watch a certain area of open space that their Clan park their ship at .. BUT before they log for the night .. no matter what... they know that there is a ship in the metaverse that will be in their when they lay their heads down for sleep at night. Something to worry about, and something to protect.
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That would change completely the way we play this game...
And you know what ? I like your idea.
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Diabo|ik
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 16, 2002
Posts: 327
From: Quebec, Canada
| Posted: 2005-08-08 16:32
Ok, I think something needs to be cleared out about "ressources", how it actually worked pre 1481 and post 1481.
Pre 1481 ( based on my lenghty experience with the awesome 1480 build ):
Each planet captured would grant X amount of a "generic ressource" ( not to be mistaken by the other type of ressources that were used to build modules and planet structures such as metal, hvy metal, urdanium and so on ). Each factory/mine/population added to the planet would then give "generic ressource bonuses" that would add up inside the " home gate " until you had enough stored to say, sortie a dread ( about 1 m ressources it was I think, or a station which required more like 5-6m ressources, max capacity of the homegate was 10m res ). No metal, hvy metal, urdanium or darkmatter was necessary to spawn the ships but they were necessary to build planet structures and ship modules that would then get stocked up in the starport just as it is now. Shipyards were non- existent, so you had to spawn a ship at homegate, mod it at the nearest mod planet ( most of the time it was the factions "home planet", Sag Hotha, Earth etc ) and then you had to take gate after gate to get to the action ( travelling from one end of the mv to the other end was about a 10 minutes trip with the improved jump speeds that we're implemented to circumvent the fuel and time problem of travelling the MV and to promote the use of the MV rather than the scenario server ).
1481 and post 1481:
Generic ressources are gone, forgotten, kiss'em goodbye. You can only spawn midshipmen ships ( or basic ships like the std engy ) from the homegates. Each ship spawned at a gate do not use ANY ressources whatsoever. The bigger ships can only be spawned at shipyards. each ship spawned at a shipyard requires a fixed amount of each ressource type that gets drained from the planets totals. Those same ressources are also used to build planet structures and modules that then get stored in the starport the old fashioned way.
The future ( as I understand it, anyone correct me if I'm wrong, yeah, that means you Jack  ):
Generic ressources come back with a vengeance. Specific ressources types like metal, hvy metal urdanium and the likes get erased from history ( freeing server memory and cpu cycles ). I suppose F will make this "new" ressources system work just like the pre 1481 one but not only to spawn ships, but also to build structures and modules that will NOT be stored in a starport but built "simply by clickin the icon on the factory that you want so it gets transferred in your cargohold". No more need for starports and specific ressource types, any planet of a specific race will be able ( with a sufficient technology level ) to build any module as long as there is enough "generic ressources" left to be able to build it. ( Let's say an AMJ drive will use 10k res, an AM drive 3k, so if you decide to remod your newly spawned dread from the shipyard for AMJ-AMD, you will need, 4 AMD and 1 AMJ ( 12k res + 10k res + enough res to spawn the dread ). Wether each planet will have it's own pool of ressources or if all the planets in a system/faction will have it's ressources pooled, I have no idea yet, tho I do not think it will be the case as it would open the system to major and easy to figure out SY exploits. This system is simple, elegant and very server/lag friendly.
My take:
Have the generic ressources come back but call it " ship ressources ". Create another ressource type called say " construction ressources ".
Say you build a planet up with a shipyard and 3 mines and 3 factories.
The shipyard would use "ship ressources" that would be gathered through planet mining ( from mines ) to spawn a ship the same way as pre 1481 generic ressources worked. But instead of having 8 different ressources used to build planet structures and modules, make them one ( construction ressources ). This ressource would be "produced" by the factories and colony hubs ( lvl 3 factories would produce more than lvl1 factories and could produce more advanced structures/modules, a lvl 3 factory would require a higher planet tech rating to be built than a lvl2 but would produce much more ressources per "server tick" and so on ).
Modding would involve you orbiting a planet, clicking on a factory, if the factory is only lvl1 but the planet tech is 100, you will be able to build ALL modules INSTANTENEOUSLY that require a lvl1 factory and up to 100 tech but you could'nt build any modules that would require a higher factory lvl ( also you could turn the tech/factory lvl situation around, say a lvl3 factory built on a high tech planet that would then get its research labs destroyed and tech level reduced, you'd only be able to build modules that meet the planets tech/factory lvl capabilities, adding some variety and a way to prevent tech 10 modplanets with lvl 3 factories that can produce EVERYTHING ). Producing a module would be instanteneous and would dump the module directly in your cargo hold ( say click a lvl1-2 or 3 factory, look if the planet tech is high enough to produce the desired item, click the item, the construction res is deducted from the planets total ( if sufficient res is present ) and the module gets dumped in your cargohold.
With this system, you could have planets that like class M planets that are naturally more rich or "tailored" for a specific type of ressource gathering ( class M = easier ship ressources gathering, harder construction ressources gathering, it could be done using a simple modifier for each type of planet, say a class M planet ( like Earth or Rafraue or Sag Hotha ) gets a 1.3x modifier for ship ressources but a 0.6x modifier for construction ressources ). This way you can keep some planets important, while others remain much less important. And you could have planets that would be better for shipyards, others would be better for factory production and so on. Also this system would allow more flexibility to further "tweak" the system to prevent exploits and the likes and to add some flavors to the planets that would be lacking with the removal of the 8 different ressource types we already know as well as maintaining the server load reasonable and keeping all the other advantages of the "developer proposed concept".
I would ENJOY if you'd critic "my take" on it, and you know who you are ( Jack, F ).
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Coeus {NCX-Charger}
Admiral, I can't read,
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 3635
From: South Philly
| Posted: 2005-08-08 23:09
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| I am retired from playing DS, also retired from staff.
That answer your question?
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Answers a lot more than just that question. Thanks!
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Captain Sternn
Grand Admiral
Joined: March 18, 2004
Posts: 225
| Posted: 2005-08-09 00:58
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On 2005-08-07 18:38, Binks(Give Midshipmen Sup/Engy) wrote:
(and if you think engineering is not strategic, you need to go build more, especially try building two planets at once....
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I hear that
I like to build 5 planets at once...keeps the old jumpdrive coils a smokin especially after the initial structures are built...helps to aleviate the boredom that usually acompanies building...providing you arent low on a rare resource that is...
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2005-08-09 06:23
Simplify the game. Ease the lag. Make it more centered to combat.
And for those folks wanting all these resources, let them go to Eve, where they belong
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-Viper-
Fleet Admiral
Joined: July 26, 2001
Posts: 55
From: UK
| Posted: 2005-08-09 07:07
Who really cares about resources, we all just build starports and let the AI balance them out anyway. Making it just "resources" again isn't going to make any difference to gameplay.
[ This Message was edited by: -Viper- on 2005-08-09 07:08 ]
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Coeus {NCX-Charger}
Admiral, I can't read,
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 3635
From: South Philly
| Posted: 2005-08-09 08:33
Amen Az 
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