| Author |
RoC changes: Make a stand... |
Coeus {NCX-Charger}
Admiral, I can't read,
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 3635
From: South Philly
|  Posted: 2005-07-03 03:40
Ok, now I know that Beta is going to solve pretty much all of the exploitation in the system currently (flux, SY abuse, whatever), but that doesn't solve the problem at the core of the issue: the exploitation itself.
Let me tell you a little story. Way back in the day (1998-ish), in Asheron's Call, there started to be sporatic occurances of programs playing the game for the players while the players were reading, watching TV, sleeping or whatever. These were called Macros. At the time, they were a reletively small portion of the community, and the higher-ups at Microsoft didn't want to alienate any paying customers by outlawing this most advantagous little group of programs. Over time, the macros became more & more advanced, and were eventually able to literally talk with people through a vast list of preprogramed responses, and/or IRC connections (and now, I've heard, connections to cell phone instant messaging). In an interview with one of the lead Microsoft men of the late 90s & early 2000/2001 - he said that he regretted not doing anything about Macros back when he had a chance. The reason he said this? Macros now encompass almost 90% of the active player base - you are more likely to run across an admin than an actual live player in Asheron's Call. The uber high levels they create have utterly destroyed all aspects of the game, other than the uber high level stuff itself. The gameplay is gone, and the balance is non-existant.
So how, you ask, do I relate this to DS? Simple: Ken Karl (the afformentioned MS developers) never took a stand on what he knew was wrong, because of A) financial issues (they wanted the money of the paying players - and ended up losing thousands more because of the macros killing off the playerbase & taking all the hunting spots and leveling up so fast with no effort at all [*cough* release flux [I know its fixed in Beta, but it still stands to mention because it wouldn't be an issue if the mods & admins had taken a stand on the issue when it became an issue]) and B) they felt that, at the time, the occasional abuse by a few people was nothing to worry about... until it began to spread - by which point it was too late to stop because the abusers encompassed half of the paying playerbase.
Its late, I'll add more tomorrow...
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Darkspace: Twilight
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-07-03 05:23
Flux isnt a macro
Flux is also been fixed in beta, therefor it HAS been fixed and addressed, and shall be released soon when 1.483 is ready for rollout.
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Lonectzn
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2005
Posts: 202
| Posted: 2005-07-03 05:24
Reading the forums you'd think all that ever happened in the mv is people running around fluxing each other.
This looks like a flux post, but I'll give ya the benefit of the doubt that it's constructive. I would add, and not in reference to your post, that complaining about flux is rampant, while actual fluxing is moderate at worst. Flux abuse is the most over-rated abuse in the game.
I want to ask everyone this: why is relogging to recover lost ships not talked about? It is easily the most abused 'feature' in DS, yet I'm sure if I do a search, I won't find a topic on it. The reason being, there's not a player who knows about it that hasn't abused it either at some point or regularly. Also you're not really gonna complain about it, it's not some player abusing something that directly affects you.
I know I use it. I use it whenever I die due to lag (specifically, crashing). I'd be lying if I said I didn't. I used to use it when I lost bombers thanks to lag (so a lot), but now I don't bother modding them, just keep bios in garage.
Relogging hasn't even scored a blip on the radar, yet it's had the largest effect on how people play and game dynamics. Last I tested it in beta you could no longer relog to save ships, and IMO it's the single best change from release to beta.
What does this have to do with flux abuse? Well, I'm simply pointing out that flux is not the only nor the biggest of issues. For all this barking, there's not much being discussed.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-07-03 06:13
The point is, relogging to recover doesnt effect the other person in a negative way, you still lose the prestige, you still lose the res lost, and infact all it does is save you credits, and im pretty sure if you relog in a certain way, you lose all the prestige you gain.
Flux on the other hand, is easy to do. Its cheap, and it effects other players in a bad way, hence why people complain.
Simple logic dude.
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Placebo
Vice Admiral
Joined: September 16, 2003
Posts: 450
| Posted: 2005-07-03 06:16
Viva la Revolution!!
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2005-07-03 06:46
Quote:
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On 2005-07-03 03:40, Coeus Darksoul wrote:
Ok, now I know that Beta is going to solve pretty much all of the exploitation in the system currently (flux, SY abuse, whatever), but that doesn't solve the problem at the core of the issue: the exploitation itself.
Let me tell you a little story. Way back in the day (1998-ish), in Asheron's Call, there started to be sporatic occurances of programs playing the game for the players while the players were reading, watching TV, sleeping or whatever. These were called Macros. At the time, they were a reletively small portion of the community, and the higher-ups at Microsoft didn't want to alienate any paying customers by outlawing this most advantagous little group of programs. Over time, the macros became more & more advanced, and were eventually able to literally talk with people through a vast list of preprogramed responses, and/or IRC connections (and now, I've heard, connections to cell phone instant messaging). In an interview with one of the lead Microsoft men of the late 90s & early 2000/2001 - he said that he regretted not doing anything about Macros back when he had a chance. The reason he said this? Macros now encompass almost 90% of the active player base - you are more likely to run across an admin than an actual live player in Asheron's Call. The uber high levels they create have utterly destroyed all aspects of the game, other than the uber high level stuff itself. The gameplay is gone, and the balance is non-existant.
So how, you ask, do I relate this to DS? Simple: Ken Karl (the afformentioned MS developers) never took a stand on what he knew was wrong, because of A) financial issues (they wanted the money of the paying players - and ended up losing thousands more because of the macros killing off the playerbase & taking all the hunting spots and leveling up so fast with no effort at all [*cough* release flux [I know its fixed in Beta, but it still stands to mention because it wouldn't be an issue if the mods & admins had taken a stand on the issue when it became an issue]) and B) they felt that, at the time, the occasional abuse by a few people was nothing to worry about... until it began to spread - by which point it was too late to stop because the abusers encompassed half of the paying playerbase.
Its late, I'll add more tomorrow...
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See that print in Bold? Thats all Jack and Lone saw.
Read the rest of the post...this is NOT a flux ranting, it's about that alot of things many people take as part of the game, yet are exploited for personal gain, are not much, could be a bastard if a time to help if such exploits were to spread. Anyone remember scouting? Missions?
They were exploited for the benefit, and it spread pretty far before it was stopped.
There are explots that could be found, and likely may always be found, and such things need to be taken heed of.
-Ent
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Lonectzn
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2005
Posts: 202
| Posted: 2005-07-03 07:24
Quote:
| This looks like a flux post |
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See that? That's all Ent read.
See Ent, I can do that too... And I said that because it has the marks of a post borne of flux, with the implied comparison of flux in DS to macros completely ruining Ash (though I agree Coeus, macros really ruined it).
And jack... that was... exactly my point. But you're only half right.
Relogging saves you massively, you get to use a modded ship (and inf if the originals died) again without modding. Massive time saver, which is infinitely more important during a battle than pres or credits. Has a huge impact on how much people value their ships, I doubt many would be so eager to take a modded dread into combat if they couldn't log it to get it back. Also scrapping and relogging to re-log the ship, saves having to log for 2min. Not to mention when UGTO got the luth to 0, I saw the same hive die several times, and some people drop the same 10 inf over and over, even caught Mods doing it.
Skillful relogging can allow you to build a garage of much more than six modded ships. In fact I would actually call relogging a skill, since it can be quite complex in the uses and process.
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Nim *
Chief Marshal
Courageous Elite Commandos
Joined: September 05, 2004
Posts: 295
| Posted: 2005-07-03 08:13
Quote:
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Not to mention when UGTO got the luth to 0, I saw the same hive die several times, and some people drop the same 10 inf over and over, even caught Mods doing it. |
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That really made the game pointless and made the mods that were on unfit to moderate as they did nothing about it. Relogging when a side has no sy completely negates the point of having ship yards. I saw the same players do it over and over again, even asked them directly to stop it ( and got back some rude pm's). How is it fair to have unlimited supply of Heavy infantry when the faction had no planets? Why didnt the mods/admins do anything?
Dont give a bs answer saying they were testing.
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Thorium
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 05, 2004
Posts: 185
| Posted: 2005-07-03 08:26
if you mean enforceing the rules... sure im all for it... though they need to do some house cleaning first imo...
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2005-07-03 09:02
Quote:
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On 2005-07-03 07:24, Lonectzn wrote:
Quote:
| This looks like a flux post |
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See that? That's all Ent read.
See Ent, I can do that too... And I said that because it has the marks of a post borne of flux, with the implied comparison of flux in DS to macros completely ruining Ash (though I agree Coeus, macros really ruined it).
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Once again, you simply state the first part of my post, one specific part of it, which indeed, just looks like a way to flame. It doesn't hold water, as it's a childish action.
Besides that point, it may have the marks of a post on flux, but its not the subject, which your post, once again, focuses on.
It's not hard..a few more seconds, and a little thought and this endless charade on a subject that has nearly no bearing on the point Coeus was trying to enforce, and I wouldent have to bother with this post.
-Ent
-Ent
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JRE
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 14, 2003
Posts: 570
| Posted: 2005-07-03 09:56
Congragulations, you guys have just made this post a rant on each other when Coeus was just making an observation.
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Nax
Marshal
Joined: May 12, 2005
Posts: 768
| Posted: 2005-07-03 10:24
There is a reason for everything - every action or lack of specific action by the staff. We're not omniscient, but, we do not ignore problems if we can help it.
I realize this is vague - but for now, I'd prefer to not provide the answer as to why. The release of 1.483 should change the above preference.
Nax
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Nax
Marshal
Joined: May 12, 2005
Posts: 768
| Posted: 2005-07-03 10:28
I'll add something that I can share. Beta is close - not just close, but darn close. (1.483). As long as we've had the "concerns" you describe, waiting another week really shouldn't be too much to ask.
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Lonectzn
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2005
Posts: 202
| Posted: 2005-07-03 10:48
Childish Ent?
Quote:
| See that print in Bold? Thats all Jack and Lone saw. |
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That is no better, and why I responded in kind.
ON Coeus's post, behind it (and many other topics recently) is the idea that flux is the biggest problem in release, is rampant and people go round fluxing madly, while this is not at all the case.
Of course, on the flip side, it's perceived to be the biggest problem, and therefore is (perception equals reality).
Thought I'd give a little parody of the thread (simplified for Ent's benefit  ),
Coeus said: If Admins been more proactive, maybe we could've avoided the problem with flux abuse.
Lonectzn said: *peeved at flux always being the center of attention* Hey flux isn't the only or biggest problem you know. Relogging is far worse.
Jack said: Meh @ relogging, flux 4tw cos it directly affects people straight away.
Placebo said : I like cheese
Enterprise said: Lone + Jack = dumb, post was about being proactive. proactive 4tw!
Lonectzn said: No, Ent = dumber. And jack, relogging is bigger.
Nim said: blah blah blah Mod blah abuse blah
Thorium said: sack the mods!
Enterprise said: No, lone = dumberer.
JRE said: flamers...
Nax said: Beta will be out on the 10th, and the first month after release is free.
Basically, Coeus mentioned flux and I decided to pull him up on it, because I'm rather sick of all the attention it gets and the 0 attention some actual problems get. Is that so difficult, Ent?
I'm not obliged to reply to all his post, just as you did not feel obliged to acknowledge my posts on relogging, and you focused on a particular part.
EDIT: I don't go with Coeus on Admin being proactive (in the sense that you can compare Ash to DS), I think it's pretty good what they're doing and have been doing, given the code. I don't like the way it's setup, and think that the benefit in security is outweighed by the loss in flexibility. Flux being unbalanced for so long seems to have been a result of that, and the timetable/mechanics of getting beta out.
[ This Message was edited by: Lonectzn on 2005-07-03 10:57 ]
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Placebo
Vice Admiral
Joined: September 16, 2003
Posts: 450
| Posted: 2005-07-03 11:09
I do like cheese... 
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