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Future MV... |
Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
|  Posted: 2005-06-18 01:45
Yeah. I was thinking, honestly, that the only systems I'm thinking are required are CD, Sirius, Sol, and R33.
Unless someone wants to petition to move their home system.. 
Otherwise, I'm probably going to make new systems (though possibly with the same old names) so we can ensure balance in terms of number of planets and resource distribution.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-06-18 03:11
What about having the home systems really far away from the main combat zones?
Ie, having them JG connected, but so far away that you'd need a good 3-5 wormholes to get there. This would mean that getting to a home system would take more skill rather than just, station, j, bang, we're there.
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Drafell
Grand Admiral
Mythica
Joined: May 30, 2003
Posts: 2449
From: United Kingdom
| Posted: 2005-06-18 04:15
One important thing to consider is that we need to reduced the speed at which a faction can immediately jump to another factions homsesystem. Jumpgates are ok to a certain point, but having the entire MV connected by them would cause some problems and makes bypassing systems far too easy.
The 'connected' MV worked in previous versions of Darkspace because we didn't have WH capability or shipyards.
Another idea:-
Ring MV
The purple lines represent systems connected by WH instead of conventional JG. The idea is to give several routesyou can invade from.
[ This Message was edited by: Drafell on 2005-06-18 04:39 ]
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DarkSpace Developer - Retired
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c0ld
Midshipman
Joined: June 24, 2003
Posts: 342
From: UK
| Posted: 2005-06-18 08:43
If we're going to have such large distances between systems, then I think something would need to be done about a) detail fade-out distance and b) lack of push-scrolling in the nav map. If you have to zoom a long way out to see 2 systems on screen at the same time, so far that the details vanish, then it'd be impossible to select anything but the star. Then you'd have to centre and zoom back in again. It's annoying enough as it is atm.
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Linna Yamazaka {Vice Admiral}
Vice Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: May 03, 2003
Posts: 415
From: killer
| Posted: 2005-06-18 19:56
Quote:
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On 2005-06-18 01:45, Shigernafy wrote:
Yeah. I was thinking, honestly, that the only systems I'm thinking are required are CD, Sirius, Sol, and R33.
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I Agree with that as the new map i'm working on has all four of the systems in it. Although right now the map may not have R33 BUT the finail release of it will have R33 system in it JUST like the current MV R33 system.
Gasp that means i need to get into the MV to scout it out >.<.
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Koda
Marshal
Fatal Squadron
Joined: August 29, 2002
Posts: 1384
| Posted: 2005-06-19 22:47
I like to see the Size of the Current MV maintained, with the exceptions of Jump gates and being able to build on every planet, planetoid and moon out there.
I think that reducing the area would be a waste, and people would probably see this as the game loosing ground. With less people, there should be less to protect. Now that Unsuscribed players can enter the MV, this would be a great way for them to go arround and Mine systems. Seeing how that one of the first things new people seem to do is jump in a minning vessel anyway.. why not embrace this idea, its just one less thing we would have to teach them.
I dont like the fact that we still have jump gates. We have WormHoles, and ShipYards to get us into the action. (note, jump times in other games are just as long, if not extremly longer ) Not that i Like that WH's allow anyone to pop in anywhere, anytime, and SY's have totally undermined most peoples concept of realism for this game.
I understand that humans breath Air, but what do the kluth Breath? Is a M-class world still an M-class world for the Kluth???
my point is that certain worlds should be worth makking a stand over. A world that is rich in a Ore vital to your factions production, or a Home world rich with population. But whats the difference in the game nowadays.. none. Heck we might as well be able to build on Sirrus 1. Becuse it goes fast.
Long story short, its just not the size or the position of the stars, its the overall point to playing in the MV that needs a OverHaul.
-Charz
p,s, I really hope someone reads this beacuse I dont think im going to keep careing much longer...
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2005-06-20 02:47
Well of course we're reading it; I alone am a pretty large player in this thread, and I know other devs make a habit of at least glancing at most threads.
The problem, Char, is that changing the Map is something I can do in a couple of hours. Changing the significance or point of it requires much, much more. In a way, you could say it would require a new game - since the MV is the point of the game, in a way, changing the way its played is a major shift in game play (potentially).
Thus, while I agree that things do need to change, and that there could be improvements, its a MUCH bigger step to attempt something to correct that. Right now, I'm sticking with what I CAN do - and since I have a life outside of DarkSpace (*gasp*), something I can do in a minimum of time.
We have some nebulous ideas on what to do to the MV in the (far?) future - macro and micro economics, greater planetary management, far more morale effects, fleet management tweaks, planet changes - but it all comes down to the key ingredient: time. And it seems we're not rolling in it these days. The point, though, is that there is a time and a place for such discussions, and we will hopefully be having many of them in the future.
However, at the moment, the only thing I'm focusing on is getting a more manageable MV map up - manageable in terms of facilitating transport, encouraging battles, providing spatial balance, and lessening load on the servers. Lets get that out of the way now, and move on to greater MV issues when we've got a layout for the sucker.
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2005-06-20 03:08
In response to Draf:
I'm torn. On the one hand, we do want home systems to be a bit more immune from the constant assaults they seem to face these days. This could be accomplished by isolating them in space, and making ships take the long way to them - not giving them easy access via jumpgates. This makes sense.
On the other hand, one of the strengths of this game has been the combat - the "action" of the game. We don't want to discourage that any more - FA used to be popular for a reason. One way of slowing this down, though, is with placing yawning gulfs between the stars - essentially what you're proposing. Thus, there's a downside.
So we have a couple of options, that I can come up with off the top of my head:
1. Link everything, and treat home systems like everything else, but with a spawn gate.
2. Separate the homesystems and make them thusly unique. This will, however, turn them into "fall back" or "backwater" systems, in effect, because they're not on the main transport lines.
It would also shift the focus onto other systems, and make Shipyards more important, because getting out of the home systems would require either a lot of time staring at a "Jumping..." message, or a shipyard. (This assumes a relatively large isolation, such that even wormholes would not reach them immediately)
3. Institute some sort of Deus Ex Machina solution, whereby, for example, there are one-way gates out of the home systems. This means people can spawn there as a last resort, and still get out of the system somewhat quickly. They cannot, however, nor can enemies, return to the system quickly.
4. ??? I kinda thought I had a fourth when I started writing. Anyone else?
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Meko
Grand Admiral
Joined: March 03, 2004
Posts: 1956
From: Vancouver
| Posted: 2005-06-20 03:21
i like some of these MV designs, but ive got some crits (gripes)
too symetrical!
too much bottlenecking!
now, symmetry is good if we want to please the people that will blaim thier failure on anything but themselves, however thats not what we want.
we want interesting right?
the UGTO should not have a fall back system. Sol is thier last chance. That the ugto thing, earth or bust.
CD can have a fall back system because of this; rebellions are moble, and the ICC started as a rebellion.
the luthies im not sure about, but either way is fine.
Symmetry!!
now the symmetry is bad because of this, each faction has a mirror key few systems. Boring. lets have a little more randomization, and then whoever makes the maps goes in and places key resources in certain systems. that way system A may have a nice bottleneck but system B has the prescious resource that is worth making a stand for.
Bottlenecking!!
bottlenecking is something a military tactition hopes for, but the universe is not purfect. i think the factions bottleneck should be at thier home systems gate. IE: if two systems are connected to Sol, the gates should be within 1000 GU of each other. that way a defence fleet can cover two gates at once.
Scale
the scale of the mv should be this:
-the distance of home systems to thier closest systems should be 4 or more station WH jumps.
-the next systems in line should be 3+ jumps from main action.
-the 'conflict' systems should in essance my just over 1.5 WH jumps. (meaning two is needed)
anyways, id draw a map, but that would be just another map to look at =)
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Drafell
Grand Admiral
Mythica
Joined: May 30, 2003
Posts: 2449
From: United Kingdom
| Posted: 2005-06-20 06:39
I like the Deus Ex Machina solution, and we already have support for it. I think this would actually integrate very well into the gameplay.
Instead of just having the isolated homesytem, there would be a home cluster of systems which can then be linked to the core systems and outer rim clusters via one-way wormholes or gates.
As for Meko's critique. You do have some valid points, but the challenge is in making a map that is balanced and offers equaly opportunities to each faction. Unfortunately this leads to an innate symmetry in design. Once we have a basic design concept that we can work for then the symmetry can be disguised to an extent.
Bottlenecking is something that does need to occur. Although if its constantly in the same systems then it get boring very fast.
This can be addressed to an extent by having the planets orbit, thus changing the landscape over time. It can also be addressed by having the resource rich planets and key 'control' systems outside of the bottleneck zone. Remember that the game is supposed to be designed more around teamplay than solo play.
This offers up some interesting possibilities on map design. Do we want to cater more for the solo players so that they have more opportunities, or do we want to push towards the teamplay goal.
The key to this is in creating a design which caters to both elements. We absolutely HAVE to cater to solo players as that is the majority of the new playerbase. Newbie addresses this to an extent, but it is very limited in what it can contribute. The MV and Newbie are very different style of gameplay.
I think the first element of a new MV map is how easy is it to understand for new players. If someone wants to just build a planet, then how far do they need to go to find one to build? What do they need to do to find somewhere? Can they go and capture a planet and build it? Ease of access needs to be integrated from the outset. However, we do NOT want to make it too easy to get around. Getting the the main combat/building/play area's should be relatively simple. Breaking out of them should require more teamwork and co-operation.
We do need to place more emphasis on resource control as atm the only point is just to blow up other people. For any strategy game then resource control is important.
One of the reasons I am in favour of having limited resource supplies in the main combat area's is that building them up to 'impenetrable' levels becomes a much slower process. As a planet get's bombed over and over it should urn out of resources. Less can be built and in effect it would mean planets changing hands fairly rapidly. This gives more opportunity to new players to learn to build these. It also teaches them a little about the resource management in DarkSpace.
People do enjoy building and creating things as well as blowing them up.
Systems can be designed with weakensses by the resource management. By not having a certian resource in a system you can restrict the number of a certain building type there. You might have abundant power, but few reources to build the defences. You might be able to build high level defences but not have the supporting power or food without bringing in resources from elsewhere.
The most important thing is to introduce all of these elements into a new map design, and to do it without requiring any new functions from that game outside of those we already have in place.
We have a few ways of making getting into a factions homesystem fairly difficult.
I would like to see a cluster of homesystems that has inbuilt defensive characteristics. The main jumpgates being near clusters. One or two ships coming through tem would get eaten alive by planet defences. So it would require largermore organised fleets to cinsider these actions.
I would like to see easy access out of the homesystems. Using one-way jump paths could be the best solution here. You would en up with frontline systems that lend themselves to a particular faction because thier jumpgate leads there. These would also need to be fairly weak in terms of defensive capability. Fairly resource poor so that new player going there would likely find something to do. Either bringing resources, building, bombing etc. These could be systems that one or two players can mess around in and learn the principles of MV play.
Getting to other systems should nop be too difficult from here. You should be able to jump there on a normal jumpdrive (scout-destroyer class) and then have enough fuel left over to move around and fight. One mistake we are making is assume that wormholes and Jumpgates are the only method or travelling distances. this is true for larger fleets, but for the smaller ship there aren't required. Having the main combat areas within easy jump range would be a nice move that brings some of the fun elements of 1.480 back into focus. you could also have a seperate network of jumpgates linking the core systems so facilitate easy tranport. Once you are there getting around should be pretty simple. Maybe have some system clusters that are in jumprange. Then having jumpgates from these clusters linking to other similar areas.
Getting out of this area into the enemy homesystem is where the teamplay can be pushed. You should need an orgainsed fleet to achieve this.
Tons of more idea's in my head but need a break from typing..
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DarkSpace Developer - Retired
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2005-06-20 16:17
I like where this is going.
Just as an aside (I haven't time to deal with all of this at the moment, nor draw up an idea).. even if we restrict resources, the game right now will probably not care, and end up making most planets stockpile a lot of stuff. But this is ok - in a future version we can have better resource management code. Thus, our limitations will become more apparent in those versions. Plus, if things need to be tweaked, the editor makes that fairly simple for resources.
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Darksworde
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: September 06, 2002
Posts: 806
From: The Zoo
| Posted: 2005-06-20 16:40
Hrm, just wanna throw a thought into the mix.
What about if you made the home jump gates outgoing only, hence making the home systems harder to get to, but allowing any starting forces to spread out into other systems. The downside is moving an outside force back into the home system, but this doubles up for the enemy as well.
Basically, its a half measure for the, leave the home system stranded but giving a slight advantage to the home systems default race!
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Drafell
Grand Admiral
Mythica
Joined: May 30, 2003
Posts: 2449
From: United Kingdom
| Posted: 2005-06-20 19:50
Quote:
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On 2005-06-20 16:40, Darksworde (DSUKM) wrote:
Hrm, just wanna throw a thought into the mix.
What about if you made the home jump gates outgoing only, hence making the home systems harder to get to, but allowing any starting forces to spread out into other systems. The downside is moving an outside force back into the home system, but this doubles up for the enemy as well.
Basically, its a half measure for the, leave the home system stranded but giving a slight advantage to the home systems default race!
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That's pretty much what Shigernafy and me seem to have in mind. You have 1-3 homsystems which are connected normally, then have single direction jumpgates going from these to the middle comabt systems.
Quote:
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On 2005-06-20 16:17, Shigernafy wrote:
I like where this is going.
.. even if we restrict resources, the game right now will probably not care, and end up making most planets stockpile a lot of stuff.
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Sure planets will stockpile, but I am thinking of actually not having a bunch of resources in the entry systems that are required to build high level structures. This will force a situation of people running out of medium-rare resources and needing to manually ferry them in. side effect is that getting these systems built up wil lrequire co-operation and will hopefully create a situation where engineers and newer players are able to learn. These systems are supposed to get nuked easily and constantly be rebuilt.
An excellent idea would be using asteroids or Inferno/Gas giants as the only sources of rare metals. Unfortunately this leads to the EvE'esque mining sim, but it also make a situation where people will be able to mine resources to make money.
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DarkSpace Developer - Retired
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|2eason
Grand Admiral
Agents
Joined: September 30, 2001
Posts: 1252
From: Wisconsin, US
| Posted: 2005-06-21 12:56
Darkspace Metaverse Layout Designs, History and Concept
- |2eason the retired -
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2005-06-21 14:46
THANKS Reason.. I was looking for some old post about all this in the Dev forum, but there was very little, and what was there was broken from Sylea content having been removed. I knew you had a grand plan and all that, I Just had no way to see it. So thanks for posting that.
We'll see what we can do now that we have this back around (though I can't guarantee we'll follow its plan at all, since I'm thinking we need a much smaller MV for the time being).
Anyway, thanks again. Let us know if you come up with anything else of interest.
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