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Full Proposal - Rough Draft |
Lonectzn
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2005
Posts: 202
|  Posted: 2005-06-09 01:24
I've said it before, will say it again. I don't think you can work out limiting dreads. No matter how you look at it, limiting dreads means preventing people who have the rank for it from getting in one, and forcing them into a smaller ship (yes, forcing). Perhaps those people don't want to get in a cruiser or dessy, and like dreads. You have the right to force them into a cruiser, just because it's good for the team and game balance? Perhaps they only come on for a couple hours a week at peak times, and they never get a dread. I'd be pretty annoyed.
Especially if they're so uber, everyone will want one, and everyone will be annoyed that those who did get lucky enough to grab one are going around pwning everyone. I'm completely against any proposal for an uber ship. Any uber kill-all weapon or ship in a game inevitably breaks the game. It doesn't matter how you try to limit it.
On the other side, what stops people keeping 5 dreads in their garage, and just always using those? Limit dreads by number in mv? Also looking at dread limiting, how do you ensure that for every dread there's 3-4 cruisers or 10-12 dessy? For example look at the mv, how players varies with peak/weekends. Low times may be 1-4 on... guarantee they'll all be in dreads. What if the other side is just one vet and 5-6 newer players? 1 dread 6 dessy?
And where do you get off claiming being pwned constantly by uber dreads is going to make newbies want to stay? I see newbies all the time leaving from insta-kills by flux or dreads already. They're not staying and going "wow that ship rocks I want one", they're saying "this sucks I can't do anything cya". That will be far worse with the uber dreads you want.
Not to mention, you claim to be talking about newbie friendly however look at the new pres lost. You say it's good for the uber dreads to be pwning newbies, but they will be losing up to 10x the pres you do now for that. Not to mention the cost to constantly mod. Even in dessy, that is going to cost them so much they will lose pres. Where is this newbie who can't approach a dread (which most vets will be in) going to get pres AND make up for being constantly killed by you?
This is why I am against uber dreads. There's no justification for an uber ship, it is the definition of imbalance. Also your proposal to somehow limit the dreads (thus making them non-uber and balanced) is in my opinion unworkable and unfair (in the sense people will miss out by no better reason than someone else already got it).
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2005-06-09 04:31
I feel the need to utterly destroy the post...so im gonna.
This in no one represents a personal attack on Lonectzn, but indeed his words annoyed the literal hell out of me.
On 2005-06-09 01:24, Lonectzn wrote:
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I've said it before, will say it again. I don't think you can work out limiting dreads. No matter how you look at it, limiting dreads means preventing people who have the rank for it from getting in one, and forcing them into a smaller ship (yes, forcing). Perhaps those people don't want to get in a cruiser or dessy, and like dreads. You have the right to force them into a cruiser, just because it's good for the team and game balance? Perhaps they only come on for a couple hours a week at peak times, and they never get a dread. I'd be pretty annoyed.
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So your saying its better we just you know, make them so we don't want to fly them at all? Is it truely better to have the rank for the ships, but it not being worth it? Lone, consider that we all don't want Dreadspace, and if that means a person or two is screwed, because their lives utterly depend on that Dreadnought, then they need to grow up...
There are other ships for a reason. Use them.
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Especially if they're so uber, everyone will want one, and everyone will be annoyed that those who did get lucky enough to grab one are going around pwning everyone. I'm completely against any proposal for an uber ship. Any uber kill-all weapon or ship in a game inevitably breaks the game. It doesn't matter how you try to limit it.
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Not everyone wants an uber ship to fly each and every time. Because, simply put, its a kill all weapon, if your actually dumb enough to get too close. (which is a stupid move in release too).
What would discourage people, especially newbs, from doing so, is simply because the risks are too high for any pilot. Massive prestige loss, huge amount of resources, lots and lots of credits to get high level weapons...
And a ton of responsiblity. Your gonna get shot at alot in a dread, and no one will want that. It cant pwn everyone, unless everyone attacks the wrong way. It should be able to hold its own alone, but not for long if it doesnt have support.
I think having the game so that Dreadnoughts are nerfed so no one flys them, is a horrible way to limit them.
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On the other side, what stops people keeping 5 dreads in their garage, and just always using those? Limit dreads by number in mv? Also looking at dread limiting, how do you ensure that for every dread there's 3-4 cruisers or 10-12 dessy? For example look at the mv, how players varies with peak/weekends. Low times may be 1-4 on... guarantee they'll all be in dreads. What if the other side is just one vet and 5-6 newer players? 1 dread 6 dessy?
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Likely the idea that, that what if scenario is utterly flawed.
A.) What stops people from doing that is the cost and the time it would take for that would be obscenely high. People would rather fly smaller ships with less risk and more fun, than a slow, daunting Dreadnought.
B.) What limits them, is if theres one Dreadnought, and 6 destroyers, chances are, that Dread is going to have a hard time picking them off due to their speed and manueverability. Meaning that Dread pilot finds himself in a position of utter boredom and frustration. He gets a smaller ship.
C.) Very, very rarely is it that slow in the MV.
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And where do you get off claiming being pwned constantly by uber dreads is going to make newbies want to stay? I see newbies all the time leaving from insta-kills by flux or dreads already. They're not staying and going "wow that ship rocks I want one", they're saying "this sucks I can't do anything cya". That will be far worse with the uber dreads you want.
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So your saying we should nerf Dreads so newbs have nothing to look foreward to? Look in release, and every other past version. Dreadnoughts there, literally are supposed <----READ---->supposed to be able to pwn a Scout/Frigate, because common sense will tell you, that a big arse ship, fireing high level weapons, is going to utterly destroy a small ship whether in game, logically speaking, or in real life, a small ship is not supposed to be able to take the firepower of a larger ship, Period.
Also a note, we all had to deal with people stronger than you that would kill you, when we were ALL newbs. Tell me why should we change this now? It doesn't seem fair we should keep ships people earned totally unusable so newbs can have an easier time, but nothing to look foreward to.
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Not to mention, you claim to be talking about newbie friendly however look at the new pres lost. You say it's good for the uber dreads to be pwning newbies, but they will be losing up to 10x the pres you do now for that. Not to mention the cost to constantly mod. Even in dessy, that is going to cost them so much they will lose pres. Where is this newbie who can't approach a dread (which most vets will be in) going to get pres AND make up for being constantly killed by you?
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If you truely lack the common sense, to attack a Dreadnought on your
very lonesome, as a newbie in a Destroyer, against a fully modded Dreadnought, then your asking to die. Are we supposed to stand still and fire on us so we take massive amounts of damage from them and not laying a finger, just so they can gain prestige? People who dont have enough sense to go one on one with a Dread, even in release, with a small ship, shoulden't be playing.
If they do die, they learn from experience "Hey, dont go after that Dread by yourself or your going to get your ass handed to you." We can't be always expected to hold their hand all the way to FA.
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This is why I am against uber dreads. There's no justification for an uber ship, it is the definition of imbalance. Also your proposal to somehow limit the dreads (thus making them non-uber and balanced) is in my opinion unworkable and unfair (in the sense people will miss out by no better reason than someone else already got it).
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Here, makes no sense at all.
You complain its senseless, pointless, and it imbalences the game.
Then you go on to say that you coulden't get one, due to the limitations to keep them balenced.
What. The. Hell.
Lone, bear in mind that in fact, by making them uber, yet, restricted so their not uber, means its balenced. Simply put, it would be better to make them worth something...if a person could handle it, and accept the responsibilitys of it.
If not, then a person can stick to the small ships, until that person decides that he could handle such a daunting ship, which its meant to only be used by those either too stupid to know what their doing, or good enough they know what their doing.
Better to make them worth something Lone, and restricted (even myself, a seasoned Dreadnought pilot, would favor it being restricted), than to be totally nerfed and pointless so no one flys them.
-Ent
[ This Message was edited by: The Spirit of Enterprise on 2005-06-09 04:33 ]
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c0ld
Midshipman
Joined: June 24, 2003
Posts: 342
From: UK
| Posted: 2005-06-09 12:13
I think my one remaining concern is limiting dreads via resources. I think it'll lead to a firt-come first-served type game, and that's detrimental imo.
Instead, I think dreads should somehow be restricted to those players that have worked for them hardest, not in the longterm as it is now with prestige, but in the shortterm. One method that struck me as making sense is a rationing system.
If resources are to be rare and ships expensive, it makes sense that resources are rationed in times of war. So by rationing resources based on player performance (say prestige earnt in the last hour they've played) you can restrict expensive ships to those players that have worked hardest for them.
An FA entering a game then, won't be able to jump into a dread before first accessing the battlefield. Instead he would only have enough ration 'points' to get a small ship like and engi or supply ship etc. If they then started making a positive contribution to the faction, in the space of half hour or so, they'd have a dread.
Just an idea, there are other ways to do it I'd imagine.
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Lonectzn
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2005
Posts: 202
| Posted: 2005-06-09 12:56
First off, who said anything about nerfed dreads???
Eh?
There is a middle ground between nerfed and uber, called useful. You don't have to sit on one side.
You've completely missed what I'm saying. I'm saying that IF you could properly limit dreads, then it would be ok. BUT there's no manageable way to actually do that, therefore trying would imbalance the game. Look at it this way - limiting dreads by resources simply doesn't work because people can keep ships in garage, thereby using them at a later date and possibly allowing as many dreads online are there are people able to use them. With uber dreads and effectively not limited, no-one has incentive to go smaller, no matter what you say about some players not liking dreads.
The only possible solution there is to limit by numbers. It would have to be percentage based, to allow for variations peak/off peak. This would technically limit dreads, but fail to bring balance. But on top of that, if you're limiting by numbers anyway, why the hell bother limiting by resources if it's not going to do anything? It only makes it needlessly complex and difficult to manage.
Now, limiting by numbers is an extremely unfair method of trying to balance dreads. You're basically saying the first person in a dread wins. There could be 6 people on, 1 dread slot and that person is afk. Yay for dread balance. Not to mention, say 3 vets defending against 14 attackers, attackers and defenders get how many dreads do you say? 1 defender, 4 attacker? With the uber dreads you want, how you think this is going to pan out? Will it be fun?
Lets go a little further. Basically what you and red are calling for is combat that is dictated by the ship you're in. That is, you're in a bigger ship you do better. This is as opposed to how ds is currently, and that is dictated by player skill. Basically, an excellent player can get in just about any ship and be scary.
That is why currently 3 good defenders can easily defend against 14 attackers, because it is dictated by skill and not by the ship. Introduce uber dreads and you make it a numbers and pres game. The side with more wins.
Most importantly, that just isn't fun.
The way it is in beta now, dreads are far more survivable vs small ships than in release (you seem to have forgotten that). However they also have trouble killing smaller ships (like in release). You seem to think this is a problem. I still don't understand why, since the primary purpose of the smaller ships is avoiding damage and survivability. Damage output means crap if you can't chase the enemy down and it's running rings around you.
I could go so much further, but it's just pointless. It seems rather simple to me that you would design combat based on purpose, so that people get in the right ship for the situation and all ships have ideal uses, rather than something where bigger is always better, and dreads are some final uber reward that everyone apires to. That is Dreadspace.
[ This Message was edited by: Lonectzn on 2005-06-09 13:04 ]
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2005-06-09 16:06
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On 2005-06-09 04:31, The Spirit of Enterprise wrote:
I feel the need to utterly destroy the post...so im gonna.
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Great, brilliant, just what we want on these forums. What else could we ask for?
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| This in no one represents a personal attack on Lonectzn, but indeed his words annoyed the literal hell out of me. |
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You had literal hell inside you? That sucks.
[ This Message was edited by: Shigernafy on 2005-06-09 16:07 ]
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Alien Mastermind
Grand Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: January 20, 2003
Posts: 242
From: Toronto
| Posted: 2005-06-09 20:45
Owned.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2005-06-09 21:16
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On 2005-06-09 16:06, Shigernafy wrote:
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On 2005-06-09 04:31, The Spirit of Enterprise wrote:
I feel the need to utterly destroy the post...so im gonna.
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Great, brilliant, just what we want on these forums. What else could we ask for?
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| This in no one represents a personal attack on Lonectzn, but indeed his words annoyed the literal hell out of me. |
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You had literal hell inside you? That sucks.
[ This Message was edited by: Shigernafy on 2005-06-09 16:07 ]
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Stop picking me Shig.
I have all your cookies under arrest and barricated in my home under the matresss in the couch, Any attemtp rescuse them will result in their excusing (eating) one ever 45 seconds. You have been warned,
-Ent
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Tiffy Rando
Grand Admiral
Joined: January 19, 2003
Posts: 354
From: Austin, Texas
| Posted: 2005-06-12 13:28
realized that what I had to say before was irrelevant... so instead I'll just say hi...
"Hi!" *waving*
[ This Message was edited by: TF-72 {Absolut} on 2005-06-12 13:36 ]
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Flagship: MCC-717: C.S.S Antaeus
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2005-06-12 13:59
ENT IS A COOKIE CEREAL KILLER!...
hm....cereal that is cookies...thar be some money in that...
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2005-06-12 16:30
I didn't really have the patience to read your post, Ent, so it may have actually been quite valuable. I just saw that first line and reacted.
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* [S.W]AdmBito @55321 Sent \"I dunno; the French had a few missteps. But they're on the right track, one headbutt at a time.\"
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2005-06-12 17:02
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On 2005-06-12 16:30, Shigernafy wrote:
I didn't really have the patience to read your post, Ent, so it may have actually been quite valuable. I just saw that first line and reacted.
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Doesn't everybody?...
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Archon
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 331
From: Queensland, Australia
| Posted: 2005-06-15 06:06
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On 2005-06-08 17:12, BackSlash *Jack* wrote:
Tael's right, think of it like an egg. Armour is the shell to stop the insides from getting damaged, once the shells gone, your a sitting duck since you have no defence.
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dont ask me why, but that made me laugh 
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2005-06-15 06:53
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On 2005-06-12 16:30, Shigernafy wrote:
I didn't really have the patience to read your post, Ent, so it may have actually been quite valuable. I just saw that first line and reacted.
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Again I restate :
-Ent
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Doran
Chief Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 29, 2003
Posts: 4032
From: The Gideon Unit
| Posted: 2005-06-15 10:10
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On 2005-06-12 13:59, Fattierob (x2 Pistolet Makarov) wrote:
ENT IS A COOKIE CEREAL KILLER!...
hm....cereal that is cookies...thar be some money in that...
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http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=cookie+crisp&btnG=Google+Search
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Drafell
Grand Admiral
Mythica
Joined: May 30, 2003
Posts: 2449
From: United Kingdom
| Posted: 2005-06-15 15:47
It's called Weetabix. Cereal Biscuits.
http://www.weetabix.co.uk/
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It's gone now, no longer here...Yet still I see, and still I fear.rnrn
rnrn
DarkSpace Developer - Retired
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