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Dreads Still Too Weak |
BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
|  Posted: 2005-06-02 09:20
Shields are a little too weak...but the CD is a long range ship, its not a close up anti destroyer ship. Ever wondered WHY it has missiles...not so it can shoot something 200 gu away...
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2005-06-02 14:24
Personally, I think one of the major flaws in the system is in using device levels to dictate ship strength. It doesn't work if the little ships can mount the same devices that the bigger ships can.
If, for instance, you restrict Destroyers to level 4 weapons, Cruisers to level 6, and Dreads to level 8, *then* we might be getting somewhere. But as it is, a Dessie with level 8 armor has the EXACT same survivability as a Dread with level 8 armor, which Just Doesn't Work. Same thing with weapons, engines, and reactors.
I remember Tael saying that power would be the main limiting factor...but it isn't. A Dessie can mount a level 8 reactor, same as a Dread, which lets it mount the same level weapons and defenses as a Dread. Combined with superior maneuverability, this makes the Destroyer overpowered.
What would be interesting is if ships were limited to what levels of device they could mount...but modified by faction. Say, UGTO and K'luth can mount Level 6 armor on their Cruisers...ICC could mount level 7 armor & Shields. ICC & UGTO get Level 4 weapons for their Dessies, but K'luth get Level 5.
Modding is good, but it can't be TOO open...
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Bobamelius
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: October 08, 2002
Posts: 2074
From: Ohio
| Posted: 2005-06-02 14:29
Thank you Jim. 
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-06-02 14:31
I actualy agree to this...
Scouts level 0
Frigates level 2
Destroyers level 4
Cruisers level 6
Dreads level 8
Stations 8+
Obviously some things like jump drives wouldnt be effected by this, but for the majority of armour and weapons..I think a system like this could work..
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2005-06-02 14:51
Freelancer. Perfect example.
-Ent
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Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2005-06-02 18:30
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I actualy agree to this...
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Only because I did not suggest it?
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Dwarden
Admiral
CHIMERA
Joined: June 07, 2001
Posts: 1072
From: Czech Republic
| Posted: 2005-06-02 19:03
well u need at least allow l1 to scout if u want restrict something at all ...
scout will be worthless w/o uprading ...
but i still some ratio factor based on hull will be nicer ... for both ammo and e.g. power drain etc ...
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Thorium
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 05, 2004
Posts: 185
| Posted: 2005-06-02 20:16
um i beleave that armor already is scailed to hull size.... so lvl 8 on a dread does not = lvl 8 on a destroyer
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Lonectzn
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2005
Posts: 202
| Posted: 2005-06-02 21:01
Frigs with lvl2 armour and no hull are expected to get prestige against your lvl8 dreads? Gimme a break.
High level armour is the _only_ thing that stops frigs/dessy popping into pretty fragments any time a lvl8 ship appears on the scene. It seems you think that all other ships should become useless when your pwning dread comes on the scene, because you earned it and deserve the kills.
If you want to modify armour, for goodness sake just tweak the hull modifier.
And again, to those who think that just because you can't so easily kill a dessy that dreads are weak: You are meant to be able to avoid dreads in a dessy. Dessy is fast, you are slow. You are going to have trouble catching it, unless you mod up to best counter it. HOWEVER in a lvl8 modded dread, if you do get close to it and tractor it, you can do a lot of damage. Meanwhile, the dessy doesn't have the firepower to really be that much of a threat. So you're both, alone, not very good at killing eachother.
What they are looking at I think is making a need for dessy/cruiser support. Remember the homeworld series? In that also and most other space based games, a lone dread (or their equivalent) is mincemeat for small ships. The best fleet is a balanced fleet.
Not only that, it's a little early to be calling for restrictions when we still don't even have upgrading. I'm guessing those lvl8 assault ruptors and HCL are going to have some nice range and damage. Not to mention lvl8 PFE giving you the energy you need. Or perhaps lvl8 gauss could actually snipe effectively. Then you've got lvl8 ablative/reflective, lvl8 active.
We're really only testing the basics at the moment. All we really have is cannons, torps and beams. Once we can actually upgrade parts, then you'll start to see the food chain form and have a look at levels again.
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Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2005-06-02 21:13
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High level armour is the _only_ thing that stops frigs/dessy popping into pretty fragments any time a lvl8 ship appears on the scene. It seems you think that all other ships should become useless when your pwning dread comes on the scene, because you earned it and deserve the kills.
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Exactly.
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What they are looking at I think is making a need for dessy/cruiser support. Remember the homeworld series? In that also and most other space based games, a lone dread (or their equivalent) is mincemeat for small ships. The best fleet is a balanced fleet.
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Darkspace is not Homeworld. Darkspace is not World War II.
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And again, to those who think that just because you can't so easily kill a dessy that dreads are weak: You are meant to be able to avoid dreads in a dessy. Dessy is fast, you are slow. You are going to have trouble catching it, unless you mod up to best counter it. HOWEVER in a lvl8 modded dread, if you do get close to it and tractor it, you can do a lot of damage. Meanwhile, the dessy doesn't have the firepower to really be that much of a threat. So you're both, alone, not very good at killing eachother.
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I was not trying to chase a Destroyer. I was trying to survive against it.
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We're really only testing the basics at the moment. All we really have is cannons, torps and beams. Once we can actually upgrade parts, then you'll start to see the food chain form and have a look at levels again.
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Ill wait till the level system. However, I still feel it is a mistake that everything hinges on the level system.
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Bobamelius
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: October 08, 2002
Posts: 2074
From: Ohio
| Posted: 2005-06-02 21:16
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On 2005-06-02 20:16, Thorium wrote:
um i beleave that armor already is scailed to hull size.... so lvl 8 on a dread does not = lvl 8 on a destroyer
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I've heard that it's supposed to, but experience seems to suggest otherwise. I don't know if this doesn't work, or is not implemented, or was never implemented in the first place.
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Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2005-06-02 21:18
In addition, ill challenge anyone and everyone. You in a Kluth/ICC Dreadnought. Me in a UGTO Assualt Destroyer.
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Bobamelius
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: October 08, 2002
Posts: 2074
From: Ohio
| Posted: 2005-06-02 21:38
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On 2005-06-02 14:31, Kratos wrote:
I actualy agree to this...
Scouts level 0
Frigates level 2
Destroyers level 4
Cruisers level 6
Dreads level 8
Stations 8+
Obviously some things like jump drives wouldnt be effected by this, but for the majority of armour and weapons..I think a system like this could work..
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Maybe something more like this?
Scouts: 2
Frigates: 3
Destroyers: 4
Cruisers: 6
Dreads: 8
Stations: 8+
Basically the first major gap is between Dessies and Cruisers, than between Cruisers and Dreads.
It would effect reactors, as logically the amount of power it can produce directly correlates with the space it takes up, so bigger ships could have bigger reactors.
It would also effect engines, not in maximum speed but again, in energy generation due to size constraints.
Jump drives don't necessarily have to be effected at all (fuel) since the different hull types already consume different amounts of fuel to scale.
And of course, armor and weapon levels are the primary target of this idea. Also, Jimmy's faction modifiers would be cool, too.
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Dempster
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 03, 2003
Posts: 668
| Posted: 2005-06-04 18:03
well if this is the case you wont see many people pilotting dreads, hell why bother introducing this into release, it would be the same thing, destroyers running around killing stupid dreads and stations 
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Fatal Rocko Willis
Fleet Admiral
Fatal Squadron
Joined: March 01, 2003
Posts: 1336
From: Kentucky
| Posted: 2005-06-04 22:38
I like the idea of limiting the level a ship can use..... and agree with Boba about what level each ship class could use...
I mean if L8 is being considered a "Dreadnaught Class" weapon should a Frigate be able to mount one? A L8 fusion torp would be expected to be a huge torpedeo.... it would take alot of space... would a frigate really have the hull space to mount it along with all the rest of the stuff it has?
It is a sound idea...
Big Ships = Big Weapons...
Small Ships = Smaller Weapons...
How hard is that to understand....
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