| Author |
Dreads Still Too Weak |
BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
|  Posted: 2005-05-30 18:31
In reply to ent.
Battles are being drawn out and being made longer so that people can have more fun, since darkspace is mostly combat orientated. Longer combat = more combat = more fun.
In practice it works, in beta it works. So it should work in release.
_________________
|
Erk
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 40
| Posted: 2005-05-30 22:17
Maybe this is stupid but just my little 2 cents. My TC has 11 Cls which is bad as getting hit by a dread if not a little worst when the 7 lvl 8 torps hit you.
_________________
|
Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2005-05-30 22:17
I think the primary issue is that you can fit Dreadnought-scale weapons on Destroyers. Especially Dreadnought-scale torpedoes. That explains why Destroyers can tear apart Dreadnoughts with ease in beta. But Dreadnought should not have extreme pain in dealing with destroyers.
_________________
Ghostly Specter of an Ancient Past.
|
Lonectzn
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2005
Posts: 202
| Posted: 2005-05-31 00:25
Haha, the issue isn't dreads here, it isn't dessy or cruiser or length of combat. It's that people are coming from release and expecting to be able to do things the same here. It is completely different. All your loadouts change, how you look at fighting dreads/cruisers/dessy is very different.
In beta, if you close jump a fully modded claw or any other dessy in an EAD/AD, alpha it and strap on a beacon, that dessy is dead guaranteed unless he e-jumps out. Against a properly modded dread, all dessy have problems doing any serious damage, even at range. Claw has all fore torps, and they don't track anymore. You can easily miss a dread, let alone a cruiser/dessy.
Yes, ships like the tc, claw can be dread killers. But they're no-where near as effective as in release, and it's a lot harder to use them effectively. Meanwhile, it's rather easy to just sit in a dread and mash at the dessy/cruiser. Dreads have it a hell of a lot easier in beta than in release.
The dessy/cruiser have very low hull, and the assault ships (tc/ac) have terrrible aft armour. They fall apart fast to fighters/missiles.
Some people have the idea that dreads should wtfpwn everything. Dreads should have trouble killing a dessy. Dessy are designed for avoiding damage, but lack the damage output themselves to do a great amount to a dread.
Dessy work well in a pack, good and survivable. Great vs missile ships, but large numbers of fighters can bring them down.
Cruisers do better vs dreads but fall apart fast vs dessy/fighters/missiles
Dreads can safely move around and do whatever the hell they want in a small group of just 2-3. They really don't fear much in the way of dessy and to a lesser extent cruisers, would take a lot to bring em down. Alone you're survivable but can be overwhelmed easily, but that's normal.
EDIT: And for goodness sake, try lots of different loadouts! It's all different and you have to experiment to find out what works for you. Plus, don't forget there really is a lot of items (like gauss) that we need the upgrading system to test.
[ This Message was edited by: Lonectzn on 2005-05-31 00:33 ]
_________________
|
Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2005-05-31 00:32
No ones reading the whole thing I think.
Imagine a Dread, standing still, facing a destroyer.
Imagine a destroyer, facing a dread, again standing still.
They all lay weapons into each other.
The destroyers does the same damage to the dread as the dread does to the destroyer.
Without moving.
At all.
Get the point yet?
-Ent
_________________
|
Lonectzn
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2005
Posts: 202
| Posted: 2005-05-31 00:46
That means you either a) are wrong or b) are really, really stupid.
What have you done, got a fully modded dessy and sat it 120gu from a stock combat dread? Beams at full range do only the random damage component. Combat dread is designed for full arcs. lvl0 weapons are meant for rate of fire and accuracy, lvl8 are damage output and range.
Your problem isn't the dread itself, it's you, and the level system. Has nothing to do with the dread. Personally I also think low level weapons are worse than they should be, but that's not the point here.
If you had modded that dread up fully lvl8 there's no dessy in the game modded or not that would stand up to it head-on-head like that.
_________________
|
Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2005-05-31 05:57
Quote:
|
The dessy/cruiser have very low hull, and the assault ships (tc/ac) have terrrible aft armour. They fall apart fast to fighters/missiles.
|
|
Question: Did you even play beta?
Because, for Destroyers being able to fall apart fast to fighters and missiles, it seems like they are able to shrug off my constant broadsides of AR Missiles and Fighter squadrons.
Quote:
|
If you had modded that dread up fully lvl8 there's no dessy in the game modded or not that would stand up to it head-on-head like that.
|
|
I modded the dread to between Lvl 4 and 8. I shouldnt even have trouble dealing with a destroyer at lvl 0. Destroyers are NOT SUPPOSED TO BE EQUAL TO DREADNOUGHTS! If you think so than we should do away with the presteige system altogether as theres no point to it!
Quote:
|
You can easily miss a dread, let alone a cruiser/dessy.
|
|
Not when said dessys are doing constant strafing runs, the max speed of Dreads are 15 gus/sec and with the current energy system you are screwed if you go too fast.
Quote:
|
Combat dread is designed for full arcs.
|
|
Im not going to even comment on this post. It clearly shows you havent played beta either. Cause if you even bothered to look, Combat Dread is stuck with a majority of it's arcs being broadside arcs. NOT Full arcs.
[ This Message was edited by: RedXIII on 2005-05-31 05:59 ]
_________________
Ghostly Specter of an Ancient Past.
|
Dwarden
Admiral
CHIMERA
Joined: June 07, 2001
Posts: 1072
From: Czech Republic
| Posted: 2005-05-31 06:52
correct approach :
ships same level (dont matter if both l0, l2, l4, l6, l8, lwhatever)
Dread SHOULD equate firepower of 3-4 destroyers
Dread SHOULD equate firepower of 2 cruisers
Dread SHOULD be able to stand fight AT ONE TIME with 4 destroyers OR 2 cruisers ...
Dread armor SHOULD be at least 4 times of destroyer's
(so it takes 1 destroyer 12 times longer to breach armor / shield defence of Dread than e.g. of Destroyer)
Dread armor SHOULD be at least 2 times of cruiser's
(so it takes 1 cruiser 4 times longer to breach armor / shield defence of Dread than e.g. of Cruiser)
this is how IT is supposed to look ...
Dread is something like Battleship on steroids ... it's maybe huge target and slow and less manuevrable , but it is supposed to have HUGE defence ability and TERRIFY any small ship by JUST presence in area and if it fire ... small ships should RUN to save theirs life ....
[ This Message was edited by: Dwarden on 2005-05-31 06:54 ]
_________________
... Ideas? ... that's Ocean w/o borders !
|
Lonectzn
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2005
Posts: 202
| Posted: 2005-05-31 07:14
Heh wording is going to be the death of me. I meant that the assault cruisers fall apart to missiles/fighters. If you read further, you'll see "Dessy work well in a pack, good and survivable. Great vs missile ships, but large numbers of fighters can bring them down.". Dessy avoid missiles well, and hell, they should. That's one of their main strengths. And large numbers of fighters, means a lot more than than the 4 a cd can pump out. I don't see a problem with any of that.
If you are saying you have trouble dealing with a lvl0 dessy with your lvl8 cd, then that's more a reflection of your piloting skills than the ship. I don't see anyone else having that problem, I certainly haven't experienced it. Is your problem that you can't kill it the second it comes within 1000gu of you? Why should you? Destroyers are mobile and Dreads, well, aren't. You are going to have some trouble (barring close jumping) running it down. That's good. On the other hand, the dessy has not the damage output to be that great a threat alone.
There are from what I've seen three basic combat ship types, assault or fore-focused ships, broadsiders, and the full arcs. Damage output is highest to lowest, in that order. Lower damage is supposedly made up for with the better arcs. CD is indeed a broadsider, as I should have said. But that doesn't change my point in the least.
Try close jumping and high-level tractors (very nasty). Seriously I've had no problems with dessy, even a modded claw vs my modded command dread was not much of a problem.
Be prepared to kill less than in release, and on the other hand, die less (hopefully less lag too).
EDIT: And another thing... USE CANNONS for dessy, for cruisers, and for dreads. Get the idea???
[ This Message was edited by: Lonectzn on 2005-05-31 07:16 ]
_________________
|
Thorium
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 05, 2004
Posts: 185
| Posted: 2005-05-31 07:25
im not seeing the problem here... ships need uses and everyone seems to know that ships need edcourts... ive not played with the ICC CD but i have used the UGTO EAD, BD and ICC AD (all dreads) and have shot at destroyers with them... modded with cannon the BD cuts them down fast and the others modded with cannon arnt too bad ether...
guns for fast targets... missils for large ships with little PD (use them on gun ships)... torps for all round killing and spaming... large lasers to suplement fire power at close range... small lasers for PD... the only ones i could see useing the lasers are the luth for hit and run attacks... atm it dones not work so well... im hopeing some lvl 8 or lvl 10 AME's will rase the top speed of the luth ships high enough for hit and run... atm they are so slow you have a good chance of finding your target and getting in a few shots in after it has cloaked... when you are made of paper speed is everything...
1 on 1 a dread on a destroyer... that destroyer should be able to take you down at lest 30%... to do any less would make the ship useless... cruser should take you down at lest 40%...
you just cannt make dread pawn all... we dont have the number of players needed to create a large enough swarm of smaller ships to kill one dread if you were to make it pawn all... not to mention to pawn all means that we have an even harder time getting people to step away from the dread...
there are 4 times i can think of when you would want a dread... support fire, flying with in the fleets ranks... flanking, entering the combat zone from an unexspeted direction with 2 other dreads in close formation (hard to explan but im sure some know what i mean)... planet camping... and planet assults...
in all thoughs instences there is something critical... support!!! be it support from dreads on your wing and support from the planet deffences or support from the fleet proper... fly alown, die alown...
they are good enough imo... we need not encourage 10 player fleets with 8 dreads... we get enough of that already...
[ This Message was edited by: Thorium on 2005-05-31 07:26 ]
_________________
|
Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2005-05-31 15:01
Quote:
|
we dont have the number of players needed to create a large enough swarm of smaller ships to kill one dread if you were to make it pawn all... '
|
|
The Developers already stated they wanted a system that would not fall flat on its face when a large influx of players come in.
In addition, we ALREADY have an incentive to get people not to whore dreads, especially people who dont know how to use them. Namely, the high costs of building, outfitting, and losing a dread. Not to mention the slow speed of a dread makes it more of a slug-fest ship than a 'Bounce around' ship. Also, finally.
Cannons should NOT be the only type of useful weapon. There is already something broken there. Not to mention that ICC, being the missile whore, cannot switch out a majority of it's missiles for cannons.
Quote:
|
they are good enough imo... we need not encourage 10 player fleets with 8 dreads... we get enough of that already...
|
|
If you want dreads to be rare, make it expensive to produce one. Make it expensive to your profile to lose one. THOSE should be the incentives, not making dreads suck.
Logic people, Logic. Whats the point of building a Dreadnought when your faction could build 5 destroyers and have a better fleet. Making Destroyers so 'uber' as you guys want it completely removes the point of Dreadnoughts in the first place.
Why were Dreadnoughts rare? Because of the obscene resources (AND TIME! Unlike the current 'Insta-build Shipyards') it took to build one. The reason why Frigates, Destroyers, and Cruisers are built is not because they can pwn dreads (As you guys want), but the faction needs to be able to spread out it's firepower among the numerous planets under its control. As a Dreadnought, while uber, can only be in one place at one time.
If a faction built a single fleet of dreadnoughts rather than a mixed fleet, that faction would be torn apart in seconds because, those dreadnougts may pwn where they are all at, but the rest of the faction is harmless.
Dont take the lazy way out of a long-standing problem in Darkspace. Fix the core problem itself with the correct solution. Not a solution which makes no sense.
_________________
Ghostly Specter of an Ancient Past.
|
Lonectzn
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2005
Posts: 202
| Posted: 2005-05-31 19:57
Yet you're still missing the point. Dreads don't suck. At all. Not in the least.
Try, just try modding any dread up with lvl8 cannons.
And if you're reply to that is "but I should be able to use beams", well then your problem is with the weapons not the ship.
_________________
|
Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2005-05-31 20:08
Your missing the point. Fly a Combat Dreadnought against UGTO Destroyers and tell me that again.
_________________
Ghostly Specter of an Ancient Past.
|
Thorium
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 05, 2004
Posts: 185
| Posted: 2005-06-02 07:53
heh... you cannt change missiles for cannon...
more testing... head to head the lesser dreads performed better than the Flag dreads. only got to test dreads on dreads...
however ICC dreads got the short end of the stick... the CD has less wepons slots than the other 2 factions like classes... shield hp needs to be improved and recharge time a little faster...
all the flag ships could do with more wepons and armor/shields... when i take a BD or Mandy and crush a flag ship and still have 40% hull left something is wrong... the problem is for the flag ships to hit me they have to more in close. to move in close is to get slammed by cannon fire... im thinking more torps (2 - 4 sounds good), more power (one more spot for a reactor), more armor (maybe 1 full, maybe 4 on the arcs... not sure) for the flag ships...
_________________
|
Drafell
Grand Admiral
Mythica
Joined: May 30, 2003
Posts: 2449
From: United Kingdom
| Posted: 2005-06-02 09:14
I have flown the combat dread against a whole array of destroyers. The damage received to me is pretty inconsequencial. The destroyers can doge a lot of fire from the CD if you equip anyhting bigger than a lvl 4 pcannon as the projectiles jsut dont move fast enough, but then lvl5+ weapons are desinged and targetted to be anti-cruiser or anti-dread class weapons. I really cant work out what you must be doing wrong to experience these problems.
About the only issue I come up against is powerdrain, but then even that is manageable.
_________________
It's gone now, no longer here...Yet still I see, and still I fear.rnrn
rnrn
DarkSpace Developer - Retired
|
English
Deutsch
Nederlands
)
