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Just thought I'd share this... |
Coeus {NCX-Charger}
Admiral, I can't read,
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 3635
From: South Philly
|  Posted: 2005-05-28 13:10
So much to reply to...
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| Freedoms have always been, and will always be restricted when they conflict with the freedoms of other persons. |
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Almost right, freedoms will always be restricted when they conflict with A) personal interest of those in power and B) donations.
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| That said, I don't smoke, and I detest smoke, and if I could, I would "force my non-smoking policies on others." Sure, you may have a "right" to do what you want to your body, but in this case its not so simple. I have to endure some of the smoke some of the time, and there is nothing beneficial about smoking. |
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This is very true, but by the same token what gives you the right to come around me and expose yourself and then blame me for it?
It all comes down to choice, you can choose to go to a resturant where you may be more exposed to smoke than you would like, or you can choose to go to a non-smoking resturant (they do exist even now).
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| I also don't want to smell and inhale it in general, and I tend to avoid bars because of how smokey they are. |
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See! An elightened one already!
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| They're listening to someone; you just might not be in the group that is currnetly receiving governmental favors. This leads to your feeling disaffected and unheard. You just need to gain enough popular support to swing things your way; that's how democracy works. |
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Sadly, this means large amounts of money - thats what sways the government, not public opinion (see Vietnam War Protests) But you're on the right track 
For the rest of what you said shig, you're dead on, and thats the problem. The government was strengthened in order to help the greater good of the country, and it did. 50-100 years on, that strengthened government needs a new fight to appear benign and holy, so it starts picking away at smaller segments of society, limiting & constricting them. Like I said, I have no doubt that this will lead to restrictions & bans placed on things like skateboarding, music, and anything else that might offend one person or another. They already tried to get a ban on skating put into place, it was vetoed by a different city council. No telling what may happen now.
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| You're pointing out wars and such events led by absolutist governments, or at least non-representative governments. As such, they are directed by someone not responsible to public opinion... |
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Don't forget that Rome started off as a pure democracy, then a republic, and eventually a dictatorship.
Not following the line of thought with the plagues however, elaborate?
But, I really don't expect to change anyones mind here, I just hope to educate a little into the situation.
One thing that should be noted, a lot of the common held beliefs about smoking aren't as bad as they have been made out to be, there aren't as many deaths on big tobacco's hands as has been reported. I'll have the actual information to reinforce that later, have to look it up again. Work today, so prolly late tommorrow for it. Meantime, keep going This is good stuff.
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Thorium
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 05, 2004
Posts: 185
| Posted: 2005-05-28 15:37
i was just giveing exampls of times when the degidation of civization degridation was beleaved to be pervasive... thoughs are extrem examples... though i have to point out of course it was the actions of a few men that helped to cause thoughs events... but i must point out that no man rules long with out the support of the people to get him there to begin with... and also must point out that it is always the rule by the few for the few dispite the type of government... special interestes (or coruption if you will) is always a part of it once agin leading us down the same path of the loss of rights and the enevitable revolt (genraly in the time of great learning by the masses) which then stars the prosses over again.. (btw rome was a republic for most of its history and in many ways mirrors our oun USA)
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2nd Rear Admiral Sobaan
Cadet
Joined: November 21, 2004
Posts: 30
From: The shadows of human imaginations abroad
| Posted: 2005-05-30 16:05
To me it would seem the only way to be well represented all the time is to represent yourself, all these power struggles within modern representitive democratic governments seems to indicate this. Any one person can't represent far over 10,000 people to each ones satisfaction. It is very hard if not impossible for one person to look out for the interests of all his subjects, unless he could interview them all and retain it.
He'll just interpret what he believes to be in everyone's best interests(which may be the people crying out about an issue most often). This leads me to the belief that we can only represent ourselves and expect consistancy. Feel free to contradict me, I'm just trying to figure out where I may be wrong about this (chances are I'm full of crap, who knows)
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Coeus {NCX-Charger}
Admiral, I can't read,
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 3635
From: South Philly
| Posted: 2005-05-30 16:20
I've only one thing to say about that - and thats that while yes, the IDEA is for the representitive to interprit and persue what he believes is the best course of actions for his representees (is that a word?), the scandals around the cornerstone "pay to play" policy of the philly city hall just shows that most of the city council & representitives are only looking out for #1.
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Strategery
Grand Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: December 07, 2002
Posts: 522
From: Straight Outta Boston!
| Posted: 2005-05-31 01:47
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On 2005-05-27 16:35, LordShard wrote:
I think smocking and booze should be banned, nationwide no less. 
Phrohibition didn't fail, it was a success, crime was down 35% nationwide, but the senators just wanted some vodka in their pitchers instead of water.
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Oh, you are WAY off. Crime went UP after prohibition came into effect. It's just they got damn good at not getting caught with bootlegged booze. I saw a show on History Channel that talked about how many U.S. Marshals wasted several man hours and tax dollars blowing up illegal stills all across the country. Considering the country was dead broke during most of prohibition, they couldn't keep wasting the cash. Thank goodness Mr. Roosevelt declared the 21st Amendment and revoked that stupid law.
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JRE
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 14, 2003
Posts: 570
| Posted: 2005-05-31 01:56
Drinking is good for the heart....and smoking is bad for it....so do both and they each cancel out their negetive effects you know I'm j/k
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2005-05-31 03:03
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Any one person can't represent far over 10,000 people to each ones satisfaction.
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In the US, each Representative represents an average of almost 600,000 citizens. Senators vary more widely, obviously, between states like Wyoming and California, but can be quite high for the populous states. Even at the founding, when the ratio was smallest, it was still 60,000:1.
Sadly, it is difficult to represent even 10,000 fairly - and we've never had it that good (well, federally).
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Coeus {NCX-Charger}
Admiral, I can't read,
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 3635
From: South Philly
| Posted: 2005-05-31 16:43
And even then, most representitives don't get voted out just because most people don't really pay attention to them as much as they do things like mayor & president and whatnot, so they wouldn't have to worry about really representing anyones interests but their own because odds are extremely good that they'll be re-elected regardless.
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2nd Rear Admiral Sobaan
Cadet
Joined: November 21, 2004
Posts: 30
From: The shadows of human imaginations abroad
| Posted: 2005-06-03 16:17
yes, very true, at this point we seem to be too diverted as a nation to realy worry about corruption as well (or for that matter exactly what defines someone as coorupt) we're too busy with faux social justice and public affairs.
However in contrast a direct democracy on such a scale as this nation in it's current state would propably crash because although a person is smart. People are dumb, panicy, full of moblike behavior, prone to listen to eachother trustingly, with the right advertisement you could subdue all our brains to any decision someone with a lot of advertising power, say a multinational firm, wants. But that's propably why we're not a direct democracy...
Plato also once asked "would not the dealers of justice and equality be just as prone to use this skill for thievery." Thusly, if we don't know how to lead, then it becomes easy for the ones who know how to to lead us however they want. Just a thought.
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Coeus {NCX-Charger}
Admiral, I can't read,
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 3635
From: South Philly
| Posted: 2005-06-04 14:18
To anyone that cares: The letter was published in Friday's Philadelphia Inquirer & I've gotten quite a few positive emails from readers... as well as one VERY amusing, insulting, and just idiotic hatemail
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-06-04 16:00
*raises hand*
I cant read that
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Coeus {NCX-Charger}
Admiral, I can't read,
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 3635
From: South Philly
| Posted: 2005-06-05 01:55
You can read the letter as it was printed though =P They didn't change a word.
I think I might post this one email I got... had me laughing for like 10 minutes. Think about it tomorrow.
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Ash'elth
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: June 07, 2002
Posts: 1128
| Posted: 2005-06-05 22:00
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On 2005-05-27 15:16, Thorium wrote:
it is noting new and more than likely it will pass... there are plenty of things that infringe on our basic rights...
one of my fav is the cop that asks if he can search your car for illegay wepons or contaban when he has you pulled over... if you say no it gives him cause to search because it seems you are hideing something... (ivasion of privicy)
it used to be that a cop could not look in your car if it was occupid on the road but now with the seat belt laws they can (ivasion of privicy)... this has also been used as an excuse to pull me over yet i ALWAYS where my belt... i also always where a black lether coat and my belt is blue... opon telling the cop this... his statment "well it blends in with the coat"... my statment "you mean to tell me that you cannt tell the difference between blue and black?" "i was in a car crash once". i was in the back seat with out a belt on". "that hurt like *you know* and ever since then i ALWAYS where a belt"... he let me go but of course with out the due respect that i deserve (though i was not nice to him ether so i guess we are even on that point)...
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That really doesn't apply. Seeing if you're wearing a seatbelt is a plain sight issue. I'm not sure about the legality of pulling people over for seatbelt inspections... I imagine it's covered under the implied consent law. However searching the truck of a car they still need a warrent or permission.
As for the smoking... There are two ways of looking at it. One is what about the people who work in bars and restraunts, the other is at what point do we draw the line?
It's really balancing those two factors that's important. And honestly as the smoking population decreases and ciggy tax keeps rising the voice smokers have on matters like this will keep decreasing.
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Coeus {NCX-Charger}
Admiral, I can't read,
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 3635
From: South Philly
| Posted: 2005-06-05 22:51
Aye, like the voices of the black population in the south after the civil war... sorry, I know its a bad analogy but I'm drunk & don't care 
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Meko
Grand Admiral
Joined: March 03, 2004
Posts: 1956
From: Vancouver
| Posted: 2005-06-06 03:31
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| On 2005-05-27 14:33, Bobamelius wrote:
if you have to be around them for a while, it won't kill you. |
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actually yes it will. And even if it doesn’t, I’m a non smoker and I think smoking discusting, and I don’t want to smell your filthy ass habit when I go to public places.
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Almost right, freedoms will always be restricted when they conflict with A) personal interest of those in power and B) donations. |
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Heh I don’t think so coeus. Freedoms will always be restricted when they conflict with the freedoms of others.
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This is very true, but by the same token what gives you the right to come around me and expose yourself and then blame me for it? |
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that statement is narrow minded. Id your say… on a public bus and you smoke. And I don’t. what give you the right to smoke in a confined area and expose me to it? You actually expect me to get off and wait for the next bus?
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| Don't forget that Rome started off as a pure democracy, then a republic, and eventually a dictatorship. |
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heh, what countries a republic now… which said country has vast army’s stretching from oil field to oil field… I’m sorry but I’m ‘outside the box’ so I can get a glimpse of the future.
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One thing that should be noted, a lot of the common held beliefs about smoking aren't as bad as they have been made out to be, there aren't as many deaths on big tobacco's hands as has been reported. |
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You must be joking. Oh yes that’s correct, this ludacris statement is a joke. Ha ha. Do you actually believe your one (probably smoker written) source over the Many smoker non-smoker alike resources??
Well enough quoting, heres what I think.
Smoking is a horrible habit, that’s addictive and deadly; yet people cling to the ‘fact’ that they love it and it makes them feel good. They also think that its their ‘right’ to smoke because its their body their harming. Well its Not just your body. Its mine to, and I don’t appreciate having my lungs tarnished by your filthy habit. In addition if your habit of smoking is ok to do around me, don’t be surprised if my habit of punching people in the face has a relapse.
As for your rights being censored and whatnot, too bad. Now why would I say too bad? Because it is, if you think that protecting people from others and their habits is a bad thing, then your flawed. I live in a country where smoking is not allowed in resteraunts. And I’m glad because of it. I don’t have to wait in line for the “non smoking” section because theres one couple in the smoking section, chain smoking like theres no tomorrow. “why don’t you go to a different restaurant?” Because I shouldn’t have to and I go to the restaraunts that I LIKE. Im not going to go to second best because some jerk off is killing himself with the cancer sticks.
So in conclusion, if you think this type of law is an infringement on your rights, then you’re being selfish. Ive stopped my habit of punching others in the face because it affects others, so you can do the same with smoking. However if you must persist in smoking, there’s no law saying u can’t do it in the comfort of your own home.
-Steve
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