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My evaluation of the new cloak |
Hellza - master
Cadet
Joined: February 24, 2004
Posts: 556
|  Posted: 2004-12-08 03:29
well give us more armour then so we can live for 80 second
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2004-12-08 03:47
*smacks head*
Your not meant to be able to last and take the damage. Your ships are a first strike weapon...your not meant to be able to duke it out with the UGTO or ICC.
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2004-12-08 03:58
You ARE getting more armor. Its just not done yet.
Trust me, the defensive strength should - if all goes according to plan - fall somewhere in the range of double to triple the current.
Ships are meant to take a minute and a half to two minutes to die against comparably equipped ships. That's the idea.
As Dem said, Back has said, and I have said - this is incomplete. You can't say the cloak timer is crap when all the other changes that will help offset it haven't yet been implemented. Once they are, then you're (more) free to complain.
And as for the 0.1 gu away and fire part.. the goal is to have a few second (don't worry; not too many) delay from when you uncloak until you can fire - a sort of "power down" time, where your ship is not fully transitioned to combat/attack mode. At that time, you can then get in the first hit.
This means humans are not completely at Kluth's mercy, but Kluth still have a pretty good chance at getting the first shot - especially against anything large and/or slow moving.
Plus, get some teamwork and you can REALLY do some damage, even with a delay. That used to be the Kluth's hallmark, so I don't see it being a huge problem in the future.
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RagAnok
Admiral
Joined: February 02, 2004
Posts: 237
| Posted: 2004-12-08 04:52
Very interesting Shig
I will go with what Nub said
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On 2004-12-08 03:02, -=~NubMarine~=- wrote:
I was originally going to accept the 10 - 15 second delay, but reading 'Shigs points make more sense than any. Cloak should be a FIRST STRIKE device only, after that, your on the same playing field as the humans for 80 seconds, what can be considered a CONSIDERABLE amount of time. It is actually the only way that true balance can be achieved. K'luth will complain of their lack of armor, but the fact that you can sneak within .1 gu's of my engines right before getting the FIRST SHOT, I think it is an even trade off.
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I am looking forward to seeing how it will all work together
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Zorg
Cadet
Joined: May 23, 2004
Posts: 19
| Posted: 2004-12-08 05:02
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On 2004-12-08 03:58, Shigernafy wrote:
get some teamwork and you can REALLY do some damage, even with a delay. That used to be the Kluth's hallmark,
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The Keyword being "used to"...
It's pretty pointless discussing anything but implementation bugs and maybe some of the blatantly obvious oversights (Cloak in Jump, for example) before .483 resources have been incorporated more or less completely.
Just relax, k?
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Hellza - master
Cadet
Joined: February 24, 2004
Posts: 556
| Posted: 2004-12-08 07:30
Quote:
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On 2004-12-08 03:47, BackSlash {DSUKM} wrote:
*smacks head*
Your not meant to be able to last and take the damage. Your ships are a first strike weapon...your not meant to be able to duke it out with the UGTO or ICC.
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*smacks head*
i know that.. what about planet def baes and that? u know they do hurt us bad 
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twitch
Grand Admiral
Joined: February 24, 2003
Posts: 89
From: twitch
| Posted: 2004-12-08 23:36
once again its not finished... kluth will have more manouverabl ships so could in theory dodge planetary fire if you are a good pilot
but yeah just take shigs advice and wait to see how it turns out when its complete
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Ragglock
Marshal
BIOnics Industry Syndicate
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1955
From: Denmark
| Posted: 2004-12-09 04:03
i was just stating the fact about how substained kluth ships are in battel atm
just watch you dont make them to weak
if you cant hide for xx sec then well you need the armor to take it or a lot of surplys 
and last how do this fit with making some kluth weapons and ships weaker on amount of weapons and the power ?
weak weapons or ships dont fit with first strike only ships of you can only make a small dent in op ships before you die
[ This Message was edited by: Ragglock on 2004-12-09 04:07 ]
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Ragglock
Marshal
BIOnics Industry Syndicate
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1955
From: Denmark
| Posted: 2004-12-09 04:26
actuly i think there are some things that should work while cloaked
some spicial devices like tractor beams mining beams ecm eccm scanner
repair and build
not sure on the dictor device thats an no and yes on my part
and it would actuly fit nice if the elf wave got back in for use to cover wounded ships out of battel
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twitch
Grand Admiral
Joined: February 24, 2003
Posts: 89
From: twitch
| Posted: 2004-12-09 10:17
i probably wouldnt agree with a few od those things...
tractor beams would give away you posistion, whats the point
eccm ecm scanner etc bad idea cos you could potentially have cloaked stuff running whatever device they wanted with little fear of being shot by planets and ships adn so on
repair and building modules... someone touched on this earlier, i think the phrase immortal sups was used, and they would be just that. you couldnt fire at it in order to scare it off, you could have a team of supply ships cloaked near you resupplying your ship adn so on
interdictor definitly not, they are annoying enuff as is without making them invisible
yeah nothing but your engines is what im all keen for
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2004-12-09 10:29
Quote:
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On 2004-12-09 04:03, Ragglock wrote:
if you cant hide for xx sec then well you need the armor to take it or a lot of surplys
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Your not meant to have armour so you can duke it out!
*insert fustration*
Your not meant to be able to cloak during battle, infact you wont be able to because your firing etc...
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash {DSUKM} on 2004-12-09 10:54 ]
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Banshee
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: August 28, 2001
Posts: 2181
From: Philadelphia, PA
| Posted: 2004-12-09 19:40
I think too many people here dont honestly realise what kluth are supposed to be...
And in all honesty I think the staff had it right back in their earlier versions.
Cloak was perfect in all senses, ECCM didnt show you, but it drained energy, and they had NO armour.
K'luth (until the JD changes and addition of armour) were jump in, do as much damage as possible, and get the hell out when your JD was charged.
Right now (1.482) they are just a 3rd copy of everything else. Im not exactly sure how it happened, but I thought they were always supposed to be the different faction... Once apon a time it took REAL skill to fly Kluth ships.
Those of you who want it all on a plate, reality check time.
Kluth WILL have the advantage at the BEGINNING, but after that, your fair game.
Id suggest you start adjusting your tactics accordingly as soon as possible, because you wont be able to partake in 'Slugfests' with the Human ships for much longer.
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Ragglock
Marshal
BIOnics Industry Syndicate
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1955
From: Denmark
| Posted: 2004-12-10 03:54
funny allready bitching about , enginers / surplys small ships mostly with no weapons, that can hide ??? 
and actuly you seam to forget cloaked ships still cant fire weapons so who can they kill ?
another matter kluth requer loads of power for their weapons allready so now the cloake use power to thats ok by me.
so do kluth get the same amount of engines back on the ships that they had last time cloake took power or you have another solution in mind.
or do they get lower power usages on the stock weapons am and disruptor ?
or any kind of extra fusion device ?
seams they gona need it if you change the elf not to be efective.
let me remind that most kluth ships lost 1 or 2 drives when the power driven cloake got removed and they got the armor years ago.
and for banshee
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then it took REAL skill to fly Kluth ships
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and you dont need skill now ?
it takes skill to fly any ship icc, ugto or kluth, you need to take a tour lets say for one week in kluth ships atleast, to point somthing like that out, its an open invtation to you
and again this is a civil discussion where i drop my thoughts on the changes not trying to be single minded here, but it tend to be more (how do we make kluth not so strong ) more than (how do we make them diffrent) discussion.
want diffrent 
- off the armor go
- up the autorepair efect by 25% to 50 % and make it depentent on power
- boost engines or the amount of them on kluth ships by 25 %
- up the elf by 50 %
- reimplement the elf wave
- drop all human weapons of kluth ships flux it sabot etc
- make an larger version of the of the psi missile that only install on kluth ships.
- make it impossible to install psi weapons larvafighters am weapons bio bombs on human ships and planets.
- give kluth a kind of longe range bio bomb
- reimplement that kluth DEF 3 bases fire am torps.
probaly more things but with the new cloake changes that would make them diffrent
[ This Message was edited by: Ragglock on 2004-12-10 04:33 ]
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whateverr
Cadet
Joined: May 13, 2004
Posts: 173
| Posted: 2004-12-10 19:31
Personally after playing Luth in the MV lately I've noticed that in most cases of battle, Luth ships AREN'T hidden, though even cloaked, i tend to uncloak when my sig was high enough to get the attention of planet defs.. the only battles where luth can (in the 1.482 version) stay hidden is away from sensor bases and ships with ECCM....
Currently In Beta the cloak drains enough energy at full speed to render a luth ship visible by the time it clears the 1k GU dictor range.
Personally I'd like to see a cloak with less energy drain, with a recharge rate at whatever TESTS out to be resonable, that the following are able to be used during cloak:
Jumpdrive, currently may be a bug, but you cannot jump while cloaked, you can jump then cloak.. but while cloaked yoy can't stop jumping.
Beacons.. why? wee frankly wth is the point of a scout if it can't beacon in stealth? all h00mans scouts can, it only makes sense.
mine beams... i haven't tested a miner yet but what would be the harm in a stealth miner eh?
Another issue with the new cloak... BOMBING! haven't tried it out yet, but since you can't drop while cloaked, and since it's true ECCM slots are fewer for luth... can we put our heads together on a way to be sure the new cloak didn't nerf luth bombing? I mean lets be frank.. Luth is the bomber faction, it'd be a shame to have it be harder..
Maybe cut 2 bomb bays from the advanced carrier and mount ECM? it'd still be ADVANCED imo
anyway point at hand, i think yeah... a time limit should be applied but keep in mind that as time passes and you're dodging torps etc Luth ships are loosing energy and if the time limit it too long in hvy combat the cloak is rendered useless as it currently drains too much energy for a time limit to be imposed... so put in a time limit and lessen it's power comsumption to balance it out
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2004-12-10 20:05
Quote:
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On 2004-12-10 03:54, Ragglock wrote:
- up the autorepair efect by 25% to 50 % and make it depentent on power - AHR is going DOWN as far as I know
- boost engines or the amount of them on kluth ships by 25 % - Engines are getting a re-design in the patch anyway and they wont be uber for kluth or any other faction, you have to decide what you want, based upon how you fight
- up the elf by 50 % - Its being downgraded by 90%
- make an larger version of the of the psi missile that only install on kluth ships. - Why?
- make it impossible to install psi weapons larvafighters am weapons bio bombs on human ships and planets. - After the patch you wont need to swap
- give kluth a kind of longe range bio bomb - Bio bombs work at 1800gu out.....how is that not long range...
- reimplement that kluth DEF 3 bases fire am torps. - Planets are becoming harder to cap as far as I know, so it might well be they fire torps...
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Quote:
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On 2004-12-10 19:31, Dark Prophet {Absolut} wrote:
Jumpdrive, currently may be a bug, but you cannot jump while cloaked, you can jump then cloak.. but while cloaked yoy can't stop jumping. - Your not going to be able to do ANYTHING whilst cloaked in 1.483, appart from some things like build (i think).
Beacons.. why? wee frankly wth is the point of a scout if it can't beacon in stealth? all h00mans scouts can, it only makes sense. - Beacons are a weapon, in 1.483 you need to be uncloaked to fire
Another issue with the new cloak... BOMBING! haven't tried it out yet, but since you can't drop while cloaked, and since it's true ECCM slots are fewer for luth... can we put our heads together on a way to be sure the new cloak didn't nerf luth bombing? I mean lets be frank.. Luth is the bomber faction, it'd be a shame to have it be harder..
Maybe cut 2 bomb bays from the advanced carrier and mount ECM? it'd still be ADVANCED imo - *smacks head* a BOMB is a WEAPON and in 1.483 you need to UNCLOAK to allow your weapons to activate.
anyway point at hand, i think yeah... a time limit should be applied but keep in mind that as time passes and you're dodging torps etc Luth ships are loosing energy and if the time limit it too long in hvy combat the cloak is rendered useless as it currently drains too much energy for a time limit to be imposed... so put in a time limit and lessen it's power comsumption to balance it out - Your not meant to be able to duke it out!!!!!!!!!!
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You people need to remember. What WE SAY wont affect how 1.483 is going to be, Faustus said in the last meeting that he will NOT be putting in player based ideas without thinking them through properly first.
Also, everyone, really try to get this into your head that everything will be different in 1.483, you need to think of the BIG PICTURE, not just the edge jigsaw piece.
Could a Dev/Admin possibly make a list of changes in 1.483 (engines etc) in this section and sticky it at the top so that its fresh for everyone to see, I think Gideon did a post but I cant find it.
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash {DSUKM} on 2004-12-10 20:13 ]
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