| Author |
On ECM and ECCM |
Coeus {NCX-Charger}
Admiral, I can't read,
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 3635
From: South Philly
|  Posted: 2004-11-12 13:01
Ok, thats it. I vote that we have ALL ships able to equip nothing but 5 ECMs, 5 ECCMs, Flux Waves, at least a half dozen 1500 reactors, a half dozen AMEs, AMJ and WHIIs, and... uhh... am I forgetting anything?
Point being, its all about the balance. The reason that Flux has become such a hot topic is because the trade off - the long recharge & nrg cost - does not outweigh the benifit of mounting 5 of them on a ship - 1 key and any enemies within 250gu are rendered scrap. There needs to be a key and dibilitating factor in each item to maintain a balance between so uber its game breaking and so crappy its a waste. You are proposing the former.
A function that ONLY works in a way that is benificial to YOUR team. Even Flux can damage friendlies, pulse wave destroys friendly fighters & missiles, and the cloak & autorepair are ship-specific.
A for effort, D for forethought.
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Darkspace: Twilight
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2004-11-12 14:48
[ This Message was edited by: Azreal{=FI=} on 2004-11-12 16:23 ]
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Dreadlock Holiday
Admiral
Joined: March 18, 2004
Posts: 29
| Posted: 2004-11-12 14:57
Sono: "Simple knock-out argument against: The device will no longer have a downside.
Every device has some tradeoff. "
I fail to see why this should be the case. It is an extremely faulty premise.
My simple knock-out argument:-
The British invented radar in WW2 (EW if ever there was one). Radar gave the British a valuable advantage with no downside.
Wyke:
The Nash equilibrium concerns overall game strategy and not a single aspect of it, as is the case here (Electronic warefare). Furthermore, to my knowledge, it is not known whether or not a Nash Equilibrium is possible in DS. Certainly, the fact that one faction or the other does eventually win would suggest that if equilibrium can exist, then it certainly hasn't been found.
However, if you wish to apply the NE (rightly or wrongly) to this single aspect of the game, then it supports my position that EW use, if applied as outlined in my first post, would not result in an EW stalemate. Wikipedia sates:
"If a game has a unique Nash equilibrium and is played among completely
rational players, then the players will choose the strategies that form
the equilibrium."
I said:
"Coldfury, your analysis would be correct if humans could be trusted to
be 100% logical. "
My statement (and i'd never heard of the Nash equilibrium until now) bares close resemblance to that in Wikipedia. I maintain DS does not consist of "completely rational players" and that therefore there will be no equilibrium, either in EW or the game in its entirety.
Coeus:
Quote:
| "There needs to be a key and dibilitating factor in each item to maintain a balance between so uber its game breaking and so crappy its a waste. You are proposing the former. " |
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The first sentence is simpy untrue. As is the second.
I agree with you totally about flux but EW is not a weapon. It does not deal damage. Do not confuse game elements. Everything needs to be balanced yes, but applying the same balancing techniques to all elements of the game is a mistake.
The way EW is currently balanced is that its characteristics are applied equally to all factions. The way that ECM affects not only friendly but enemy vessels is arbitrary and ridiculous! The same goes for ECCM.
My problem with the current system is that it makes no sense and precludes the use of any faction using ECM and ECCM simultaneously (on a planet for e.g) because they cancel each other out. Hence you rarely (if ever) see a planet with both active ECM and ECCM...
An analogy for the current EW system: America, prior to invading a country, gives all its satellite intelligence to that country (to keep the balance!)
or
Britain, having located German airplanes during WW2 using radar, then gives the location of its own planes to the Germans - HELL! WE HAVE TO KEEP THE BALANCE!!!!!!
An analogy for my system: America uses satellite intelligence prior to invading a country, BUT, that country has its own satellites and intelligence to help prevent the invasion. (and we still have balance!)
or
During WW2 the Germans invent radar independantly of Britain and so balance is maintained.
All factions would benefit (and suffer) equally if EW was applied as I suggest and game balance would be unaffected.
Anyone who thinks the current system makes any kind of sense..... words fail me.
Just read your post Azreal, thx for the info, i never knew that. It doesn't change the discussion much though cos at 500-2500 GU planet ECCM is lighting up allied ships too! CRAZY!! And < 500GU ECM is hiding enemies! UNBELIVEABLE!!!
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Coeus {NCX-Charger}
Admiral, I can't read,
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 3635
From: South Philly
| Posted: 2004-11-12 17:08
Ok... you keep bringing up real world comparisons that have NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS!
You're talking about REAL WAR with REAL PEOPLE! Not a GAME designed for ENTERTAINMENT! Are you on CRACK?
Its a game, and games have rules and limitations to keep the game fun and interesting and challenging. You are proposing to remove an element of that challenge, making the game less fun & less interesting.
Quote:
| Quote:
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"There needs to be a key and dibilitating factor in each item to maintain a balance between so uber its game breaking and so crappy its a waste. You are proposing the former. "
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The first sentence is simpy untrue. As is the second.
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Again... ITS A GAME! It needs BALANCE! YES THERE DOES need to be balance for each item (Not just weapon, ITEM!) in the game! Why do you think the game is being redesigned AGAIN with v483?
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I agree with you totally about flux but EW is not a weapon. It does not deal damage. Do not confuse game elements. |
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And who said balance needs to be limited to just weapons? Look at what is happening with K'Luth cloak - it is getting completely re-written. And if you want to get technical, ICC Pulse Wave doesn't actually do damage, it goes in a shield slot. Don't confuse the fact that electronics warfare don't actually do damage with the fact that they are a key element of any well-planned military campaign.
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| Everything needs to be balanced yes, but applying the same balancing techniques to all elements of the game is a mistake. |
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Ya know... I really hate to make a personal attack here (and mods feel free to edit if its too much) but you're retarded. What kind of statement is that? Not everything in a game doesn't need to be balanced? I don't even have the words for such a idiotic, blind, ... god, what the hell are you smoking??!?!?!?!
Quote:
| My problem with the current system is that it makes no sense and precludes the use of any faction using ECM and ECCM simultaneously (on a planet for e.g) because they cancel each other out. Hence you rarely (if ever) see a planet with both active ECM and ECCM... |
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Well hey, since you're so fond of making RL comparisons... how often do you see a navy submarine set for silent running letting off active sonar pings?
The reason that you can't run the two together is because of WHAT THEY ARE! ECM = Electronic Counter Measure. ECCM = Electronic Counter-Counter Measure. One is designed to do one thing, the other designed to counter the 1st. I mean... seriously... you want to take the entire essence of what these items are and rework them so that they suit your needs whether they effect the gameplay or not.
As for the last part...
Radar works by sending out pulses that bounce off objects and goes back to the radar station - the pulse itself gives away the location of a radar station.
And once more, THIS IS A GAME - REAL WORLD ANALOGIES WITH WAR SITUATIONS RARELY, IF EVER APPLY! This is one of the parts that doesn't fall under "if ever"
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Darkspace: Twilight
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Dreadlock Holiday
Admiral
Joined: March 18, 2004
Posts: 29
| Posted: 2004-11-12 17:47
Quote:
| Again... ITS A GAME! It needs BALANCE! YES THERE DOES need to be balance for each item (Not just weapon, ITEM!) in the game! Why do you think the game is being redesigned AGAIN with v483? |
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and
Quote:
| And who said balance needs to be limited to just weapons? Look at what is happening with K'Luth cloak - it is getting completely re-written. And if you want to get technical, ICC Pulse Wave doesn't actually do damage, it goes in a shield slot. Don't confuse the fact that electronics warfare don't actually do damage with the fact that they are a key element of any well-planned military campaign. |
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Did you actually read what I wrote Coeus? To quote myself
Quote:
| Everything needs to be balanced yes,... |
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So why are you going on about balance as if I have something against it?
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| Not everything in a game doesn't need to be balanced |
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If you could please point out to me and everyone else where I said this i'd be most grateful. And please, feel free to insult me. Your words are nothing to me and you simply make it clear to everyone that you are very immature and incapable of having an adult debate.
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| ECM = Electronic Counter Measure. ECCM = Electronic Counter-Counter Measure |
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Congratulations! You know your acronyms. However you are quite wrong in your reasoning. Both can be used simultaneously in RL, and as Azreal pointed out, in the game also. (He seems to have removed his post...)
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| I mean... seriously... you want to take the entire essence of what these items are and rework them so that they suit your needs whether they effect the gameplay or not. |
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It has nothing to do with my needs and of course it would affect gameplay... that's the whole point.
Quote:
| Radar works by sending out pulses that bounce off objects and goes back to the radar station - the pulse itself gives away the location of a radar station. |
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Well thanks for the science lesson, however it wasn't necessary...
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| And once more, THIS IS A GAME - REAL WORLD ANALOGIES WITH WAR SITUATIONS RARELY, IF EVER APPLY! This is one of the parts that doesn't fall under "if ever" |
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I'm sorry to say you are wrong again. Real world analogies are very useful because the real world works. If there is a problem in a game, especially MMPGs, the real world is an obvious source of information. If you know how the problem is solved or avoided in RL you can see how to solve/avoid it in a game.
I won't be responding to your posts anymore as I have better things to do than argue with silly children so feel free to be as insulting and childish as you want.
[ This Message was edited by: Dreadlock Holiday on 2004-11-12 17:48 ]
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Coeus {NCX-Charger}
Admiral, I can't read,
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 3635
From: South Philly
| Posted: 2004-11-12 20:39
Quote:
| Everything needs to be balanced yes, but applying the same balancing techniques to all elements of the game is a mistake. |
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Strike one.
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| So why are you going on about balance as if I have something against it? |
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What I just said above. Foul ball, strike two.
To emphasize what you said to clarify exactly the crap that you're spouting...
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| Everything needs to be balanced yes, but applying the same balancing techniques to all elements of the game is a mistake. |
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Strike three with bases loaded while down by 1 in the bottom of the 9th and two outs.
Quote:
| Congratulations! You know your acronyms. However you are quite wrong in your reasoning. Both can be used simultaneously in RL, and as Azreal pointed out, in the game also. (He seems to have removed his post...) |
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Go ask how many F117s run with active radar running. Go ask how many submarine captains run their ships in silent running while pinging away with active sonar. These are your favorite analogies too, which don't translate into the game world!
Why don't they translate? Because in real life, weapons are ment to kill, destroy, and take advantage of the other guy without any regard to what THEY can do. Guess what, if a video game ever did that, it would go out of business so fast the beta wouldn't even be over for it. You know why? How often did you ever play Duke Nukem with cheats?
I am really not going to spell this out for you - if you are really as old and mature as you are trying to be you can make the connections on your own.
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| It has nothing to do with my needs and of course it would affect gameplay... that's the whole point. |
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Yes it does, otherwise you wouldn't have posted the thread. And I should have clarified - negatively affect the gameplay.
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| Well thanks for the science lesson, however it wasn't necessary... |
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Yes it was, especially since you insist on making comparisons to real life. You can't just ignore it because it doesn't conviently fit into your idea of what ECM and ECCM should be.
Quote:
| I'm sorry to say you are wrong again. Real world analogies are very useful because the real world works. If there is a problem in a game, especially MMPGs, the real world is an obvious source of information. If you know how the problem is solved or avoided in RL you can see how to solve/avoid it in a game. |
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The real world works ehh? Go read a newspaper and tell me that.
This is a sci-fi space game set in the distant future. How is that the real world in which we live now? The real world now is all about kill or be killed, don't give a damn about the other guy or fairness. That would make a great video game if you were a nazi or something. The real world is a deluded source of information.
And RL is not a valid source for how to solve a problem in a game - someone steals from me, cheats me, or does any of a number of things that people do in online games - the last thing I'm gonna do is what I have to resort to in online games.
If you want to make a case for how something in Darkspace should be changed to improve the game, then use deficits in the game to point it out - and find a way to balance it. You failed to do either.
And I'm not posting this so you can respond, I'm posting it so you can actually read what I am writing and LEARN FROM IT! God forbid you LEARN something.
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Darkspace: Twilight
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Dreadlock Holiday
Admiral
Joined: March 18, 2004
Posts: 29
| Posted: 2004-11-12 22:41
The first half of your post with the baseball references is pure rhetoric, not worthy of comment.
Your RL analogy shows a very limited understanding of PW and what is possible. It also shows a very limited imagination. Have you not heard of passive radar/sonar? Have you not heard of signal jamming? Who knows what technology will be available in the future. There is no reason why ECM and ECCM could not be used on the same vehicle. Again, this is already possible in the game.
Hmm let me see, more rhetoric follows, blah blah blah, talk about fairness and Nazis, lol. Oh here's some good ones...
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| The real world is a deluded source of information. |
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| And RL is not a valid source for how to solve a problem in a game... |
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Well god help us then because it's the only source we have. You must be a very unhappy person to live in such a terrible misleading world.
Let me see. More rhetoric, and unsubstantiated statements...
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| If you want to make a case for how something in Darkspace should be changed to improve the game, then use deficits in the game to point it out - and find a way to balance it. You failed to do either. |
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And apparently i'm the one who needs to learn something. Well, when you learn how to debate get back to me and we can have a proper discussion. Until then.
*Yawn*
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Coeus {NCX-Charger}
Admiral, I can't read,
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 3635
From: South Philly
| Posted: 2004-11-13 00:00
Rhetoric would be spouting pithy phrases and sayings with no point behind them. The point that I made is that you are a hypocrite. You say that everything needs balance but then everything shouldn't be balanced the same?
Let me get this straight. Everything should be balanced. But everything shouldn't be balanced the same? Think about what you're saying here a minute...
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=balanced
Please review.
Quote:
| Your RL analogy shows a very limited understanding of PW and what is possible. It also shows a very limited imagination. |
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Interesting assumption - supporting evidence?
My total lack of imagination.
And by PW I am assuming you typoed EW - electronics warfare.
[quote]Have you not heard of passive radar/sonar?[quote]
I love it when people walk right into things like that... notice I said ACTIVE radar and ACTIVE pings - because they both send out signals that create a focus on the point of origin.
PASSIVE radar and sonar LISTEN for heat, signals and sounds that other aircraft and subs give off. And if you bothered to look, all ships can do that. Which is how the K'Luth cloaking device works (or something like it) by creating a field around the ship that gives off no emissions - and the only way to counter that is to send out an ACTIVE signal which also pinpoints your location.
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| Have you not heard of signal jamming? |
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Signal jamming as in flooding the communications EM band with noise, or signal jamming as in flooding the air around an aircraft with so many radar waves that they create ghost images of the aircraft (which is unproven in combat IIRC)? Please be more specific with the terms you've heard on the Discovery channel.
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| Well god help us then because it's the only source we have. You must be a very unhappy person to live in such a terrible misleading world. |
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What about that imagination you were talking about before? I kinda thought that was the key basis for a space based ship combat game that takes place hundreds of years for know. And I'm quite happy knowing that 90% of what you hear is BS - the world may be misleading but that doesn't mean that you let it bother you. Have you?
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| Let me see. More rhetoric, and unsubstantiated statements... |
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Just playing on your field.
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| And apparently i'm the one who needs to learn something. Well, when you learn how to debate get back to me and we can have a proper discussion. Until then. |
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You start off with a flimsy idea for a way to further unbalance a game that is already on thin ice insofar as the balance issue goes, you give no actual supporting evidence as to WHY this should be implimented (read HOW this improves the gameplay and balances between the pros and cons). You then proceed to "debate" by ignoring the key and important factors of the arguements of others, and to top it off you are proposing a drastic change in a system that is going to receive a drastic change soon in the first place, and you don't take into account the change that is going to happen, and you want to talk to me about proper debate strategies?
I have countered every single point you have made, while you ignore some of the key points I have. I have pointed out the flaws in your debate strategies and substance, and you call it rhetoric and do a little yawn emote like I would expect from my 12 year old cousin. And you want to talk to me about proper debate strategies.
Right.
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Darkspace: Twilight
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twitch
Grand Admiral
Joined: February 24, 2003
Posts: 89
From: twitch
| Posted: 2004-11-13 01:15
OMG would you guys shut up...
dreadlock holiday, IMHO ecm and eccm should stay the way they are
coeus, ill agree with you, but not with the way you repeatedly said it
stop the flame war
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Dreadlock Holiday
Admiral
Joined: March 18, 2004
Posts: 29
| Posted: 2004-11-13 06:48
I apologise Twitch. I should never have responded to him once he showed his true nature.
He "debates" using insults, rhetoric, mis-quoting and making obviously false statements (I could quote instances but I really can't be bothered). Much of what I say clearly goes over his head as he shows by calling me a hypocrite and he has now in desperation resorted to pointing out typing errors...
Nothing more need be said.
[ This Message was edited by: Dreadlock Holiday on 2004-11-13 06:51 ]
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Meko
Grand Admiral
Joined: March 03, 2004
Posts: 1956
From: Vancouver
| Posted: 2004-11-13 07:09
hey twitch your still around!!! =)
good flame war, i was enjoying it. however methinks you should both play more and think less. coeus not so much cause i know your at collage.
anyways my point is; when a bird poops on your shoulder, clean it off.
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