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Kluth style Eccm |
Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
|  Posted: 2004-11-11 19:15
I think you're giving far too much credit to past thinking about "interfactional balance." Sure, there may be some apparent sense, but I think this is just our (as humans) natural tendency to try to find order in chaotic systems.
... but that's just my opinion..
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CleverCuts
Cadet
Joined: October 21, 2004
Posts: 25
| Posted: 2004-11-11 19:21
I just find the cloak as it stands makes for very volatile gameplay. Plus basically it makes fighting an ecm battle near impossible for the human factions. Unless they fight each other... witch is never...
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whateverr
Cadet
Joined: May 13, 2004
Posts: 173
| Posted: 2004-11-11 20:19
wait a min....
k'luth need 8 sensor bases?
i don't think so... plus i've encountered ECM clavates, that even my BD with ECCM can't detect while i'm on top of it..
us humans can't cloak.. we approach a planet even without ECCM base on it we are detected, you can atleast approach planets in stealth...
we adapted to our highly detectable ships by using ECM to bomb...
why you haven't tried I'm not sure, but you saisd we use scouts.. it's fair to say you can too? or if your scout can't mount ECM then i know the extractor can as i've used one as luth to sneak up on a sensored planet in DSA to roid bomb undetected..
you have the ships to do what we do... we only mount a couple sensors on our planets you have no reason to mount 8
learn your ships and adapt your tactics, the ECCM and ECM imo are fine as is.. if we allow K'luth to mount more ECCM, then really we are allowing them to mount more ECM which would make you so hard to detect with the cloak aswell that this game would really be terribly unbalanced..
making you team up and have ppl fly ECM modded ships for the sole purpose to mask bombs imo is better than giving other ships more ability to hide
and yes, a BD can mount 4 eccm... or 4 ecm.. but i tell you what you can't hide a BD/station/ or any other large human ship with ECM...
your large ships can hide with ease, even the hive... so i beg devs to not consider this for ECCM reasons as it allows more ECM on thier ships
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Ragglock
Marshal
BIOnics Industry Syndicate
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1955
From: Denmark
| Posted: 2004-11-11 20:36
guys the most eccm we can mount is 3 on the extractor well that dont cut it if 1 single sensor scout can can mount 7 sensors we need atleast 4 ships running eccm
or 3 - 4 sensors on the planets
but dont stop here i have encounterd fleets with 3 or more ecm boosting scouts so thats 21 ecm hmm
and even with all the firepower from a kluth ship you cant stop a transport rush
news for you kluth ships still dies easly more easy than the human counter partssome of the transport runs you can do in an ugto heavy cruzz or icc heavy is astounding not that i mind that just rember well guarded planets and we cant eve stop 1 transport 
and ramming like the masses of bios that can be launched inside the bombing range of 250 it takes mustly 1 or 2 hits to kill tha planet
just becaus we have the cloake do that mean we should not have a chance defending planets ?
i just think the bio bombing need a fix of somekind and i dont care if its for kluth only or just get a change so you cant mask them with ecm
and personaly i dont think it fit on a fraction that is based on stealth than we should all fly around boosting out eccm.
it dont fit with the idiear
[ This Message was edited by: Ragglock on 2004-11-11 20:39 ]
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2004-11-11 20:39
[ This Message was edited by: Azreal{=FI=} on 2004-11-12 16:22 ]
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Grimith
Grand Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: August 09, 2003
Posts: 836
From: Your local future farm.
| Posted: 2004-11-11 20:40
Just want to be critical when I say that the UGTO Battle Dreadnought only has three special slots, not four. Sorry, Prophet.
Anyway... I'm going to have to say no to this K'luth style ECCM thing... mainly because of what the K'luth are based on. As far as I know, their main focus is on beating a ship the hell up or tearing something the hell down... and, that's basically it. Really. Currently, having more special slots to fit in ECCM could do horribly because either there would be ECM or you would find siphons with three fusion reactor 1500s that could just chase and shoot and shoot and shoot some bloody more.
Even when the new systems are implemented later on, I still resent the K'luth getting a lot on the electronic warfare slot. What the hell are they doing with tons of electronics, anyway? They're bloody organic! And they should stay that way.
There. That's the end of it. That's how I feel. If that hurts anyone, well, I'm in a particularly nasty mood right now, and reading a few of the posts in this thread contributed (though I'll say, Ragglock, that I'm not mad at you. You're just frustrated at the bombers. I understand.  ). But, hey... rather give it to you frank than "sugar coat" it all.
Go life.
(Note: I love trying to teach morals in all posts!)
---EDIT: Also want to note seeing Ragg's and Azreal's posts a few minutes before mine. Never got a chance to read them. Huh.
Anyway, to cover Wevil's point... hm. Not sure. I know humans can't use disruptors or Elf Beams (save for the UGTO Heavy Supply) or cloak or automated repair, but, beyond that, yeah. All interchangeable, really. And, yeah, there should be limits --- I've got no problems with saying that there should be some. I'm just not sure how many.
But, I think that covers it. I just wouldn't think being so strong in the EW personality would fit how the K'luth are supposed to go. That's just my view, though... and I'm not a very strong K'luth person. Never know.
[ This Message was edited by: Evih Rekrow on 2004-11-11 21:11 ]
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Beast
Cadet
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: May 27, 2002
Posts: 345
From: Wouldnt you like to know
| Posted: 2004-11-11 20:42
As I understand it everything the Kluth use is organic. So my question is how can the Humans Use our fighters our bombs our torps our drives our Jump drives and our basic weopons tobegin with. I would gladly give up everything we use that spose tobe for Humans. In exchange they cant use one bit of our tech.
As for the ecm thing eh dont care what I said above pretty much explains My views on the whole thing.
[small][ This Message was edited by: Evil Wevil[-GTN-] on 2004-11-11 20:44 ][/small]
[ This Message was edited by: Evil Wevil[-GTN-] on 2004-11-11 20:46 ]
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Ragglock
Marshal
BIOnics Industry Syndicate
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1955
From: Denmark
| Posted: 2004-11-11 20:48
im actuly not saying that all kluth ships should have extra spicials
just a few that gets used to planet defence mostly anyway like the gangelina or paracite.
and make our frigates usefull since now none of them even have 1 spicial
and scouts why cant they have 2 or 3 its thier job so to speak
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2004-11-12 01:44
humans have the tech to mod your weapons to ours most probably.
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whateverr
Cadet
Joined: May 13, 2004
Posts: 173
| Posted: 2004-11-12 03:12
if it's to defend your planets Ragglock then request a change on the planet, planet structures not ship related, anything added to a ship isn't going to be used to just defend a planet, could be exploited elsewhere.
here how bout this, K'Luth get a hole new build style, that actually fits the faction being organic. in this new set of structures you get a ECCM type of device that detects a lil better than ours, saving you using 8 of ours.
but honestly if the idea is to make factories only good to the faction that built it then you won't need anti-bio bomb tech, we won't have bios, so your concern is really mirvs
and frankly you won't have sheilds, and neither will ugto
honestly that whole talk makes more dev work though, and it becomes a balance issue, so i'll not grind further on it
oh, last note UGTO and ICC both can do the type of bombing you are talking about, so we have the same prob when fighting eachother, takes about the same number of ECCM ships to counter ECM ships i'm pretty sure... we use that tactic on eachother, so you aren't the only one losing planets to ECM bomb runs
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Ragglock
Marshal
BIOnics Industry Syndicate
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1955
From: Denmark
| Posted: 2004-11-12 04:10
you right there problem for all
only diffrence we dont have fast firing beams of any kind what ugto or icc have
+
and dont forget i was just asking the dev to look into this with some surgestions on how to fix it
other solution could be planet born ELF base that works like the old elf wave
so when you get in range of lest say 250 from planet ship power power dies out
that would
1 nulle out the close orbit pcm bombing exploite
2 nulle out the kamikaze bomb runs on the planets since the last 250 qu you cant fire bombs
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Fatal CrazyJeep
2nd Rear Admiral
Joined: February 12, 2003
Posts: 6
From: Sterling Heights, Michigan
| Posted: 2004-11-12 04:27
Ragglock, it just sound that you want everything you dream of to basically, one up UGTO and ICC. I remember many things from the days I started playing this game on and off since 2002. This is different game. It has changed. And I can tell you one thing. These 3 factions are more in common with one another than they ever have. ICC is supposed to have distance, we dont, we get stuck doing the alpha strike with sabots at close range. UGTO, I dont know much, havent fought u fellas enough. But I do know the kluth. You complain that you cant stop bio bombs, you complain you dont have fast beams, you complain that you have to use SENSORS to stop our bios. Well, I think your complaining for complaining sake. From my view, You get to cloak. We dont even get to buy a mod to cloak. Now if that isnt an advantage, tell me what is? Elf beam? Flux? Auto Repair? ohh, need I forget the bio bomb Adv. Carrier? Your bombing tactics are the same as we use. Cluster them. Now you want to ECM too? sounds like u need the Rubbermaid Siphon Cargo Carrier. There is supposed to be pros/cons to each of these races. But I see every day ICC dropping their rails for psi cannons, I see UGTO swapping their gear, and kluth swapping theirs.
I think you do have a valid point in the sense that, you have a hard time defending a bio bomb. We all do. Nobody uses mirvs anymore. My advice, change the game up. Make us use mirvs, and you use bios. But, change the way they work. Make it so that you DO NOT get shields. That I think would be a fair trade off. Yes, you get to kill our pop, but we have to rebuild your planets. I think each race should have their specialty. When I first started playing, UGTO had their flux( which they couldnt LOAD up on a ship like you can now), Kluth had their cloaking ability, and the ICC had their distance and shield capabilities. This game needs to be tweaked, edited, and remade into what it once was. As for now, it is just riding in the shadow of the the years prior.
Fatal CrazyJeep
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Fatal Arkarian
Cadet
Joined: October 23, 2003
Posts: 63
| Posted: 2004-11-12 04:48
I stiil use mirvs.
anyway, I agree with crazyjeep. the races have become like british political parties.....claiming to be different, but doing the same stuff. I think the advantages and disadvantages need to be increased, to give more definate styles to each race.
Thats my two pennies worth anyway
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Ragglock
Marshal
BIOnics Industry Syndicate
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1955
From: Denmark
| Posted: 2004-11-12 05:57
whats your game ?
actuly that we have to use loads of sensors make us all the same
the kloake is what makes kluth diffrent the frontal mountet weapos, the many ships with no spicial slots at all, the spicial attention you have to give to power
i realy want to make kluth even more diffrent if you can read between the lines
and last im not complaning more surgesting to ballance the game more
that dont give reason for body slamming me you change the subject out of spite or what
i single out a simple thing i think need to be looked at not trying to change the whole game.
im not talking about flux adv carrrier pcm and what ever
and for complaning for complanings sake dont go futher than flux discussions to see what thats about this is not it;)
hey BIO bombs are supposed to be kluth only so if basical talking bout an kluth device that should be nerfed and for flux now you bring it up can keep it and stuff it:D
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whateverr
Cadet
Joined: May 13, 2004
Posts: 173
| Posted: 2004-11-12 06:36
actually i think i know what would be great..
ICC build.. defs are ICC tech ( i know fighters are already) .. each structure has an ICC feel...
same with luthie.. DEF bases fire disruptors or something luthie in nature, the buildings are luthie style.. you know the pic in the box on the right when you click a structure? those should be faction in nature, the buildings should be diff, like i said a luthie sensor that is luthie style, fitting luthie needs and knowledge and history etc..
same for all factions... builds shouldn't be interchangeable, only way to have anything from another faction is to cap that faction planet, but the factory would need scrapped if factories are faction only..
but if you're gonna make modding faction only then each faction needs a overhaul, ground up..
i use, larvea, psi cannon, and fusion torps on my BD, why? cuz frankly UGTO weapons are all electronic in nature, and damage to electronics is nice but takes too long to kill... our basic weapon is no good, but the EMP is nice, just doesn't destroy ships  p torps are not great in combat due to poor tracking, and in a slow turning ship you need a torp that can track when shooting the much loved luthie dessie
the tech sharing is great because each weapon has pros/cons so knowing the ship you have and the ships you'll try to target you can mod a good combo for that
i honestly don't know what faction i'd be if i had to mod with one tech, i guess i'd bomb as luth combat as icc and scout as ugto maybe? actually with fusions ICC i'd likely combat as ICC and bomb as luth and leave ugto as they'd be screwed without foriegn tech
ugto is an underdog more than luth without faction mods.. in the current version, lets face it. do any of you mod with ugto stuff? aside from flux wave we have nothing anyone uses
so before you think that luthies have it bad, try to look at what you use on your ships, because i bet it's an icc/k'luth combo
the reason i fly ugto is the BD, that and the EAD is really all we truelly have
and only modded non ugto
my suggestion to go with yours Ragglock is a whole new look at everything ground up.. learning everything we've learned since the birth of DS and maybe it still won't be right but it'll be a good start
this game has imo the greatest idea backing it, it'll take time to perfect but the foundation is a solid dream and i am glad we can input ideas
i'm willing to wait a lil longer for the next version if devs will take another look at everything and let us know what they are thinking and get our feel on it 
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