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Varz zZz zz
Cadet
Joined: March 16, 2002
Posts: 702
From: East Coast, USA.
|  Posted: 2004-02-23 12:02
Basically, the veteran players with good piloting skills would pick up a lot of special devices and have the most tricked out ships.....
This would create a "aristocracy" of sorts among the players, one in which these advanced players would have much better and stronger ships to fly compared to people starting this game and not having an idea of what device would give them an advantage.
This game already has a steep learning curve. That would probably serve to make it all the more difficult for new players to feel like they are able to compete, especially in the MV environment.
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Also, I must say I agree with Demorian's ship layout AND the idea the the [DEV] team should be consulted in depth. I have always listened to them and seen their ideas as a bridge between us, the players, and you the game designer. They have made every effort to discuss their ideas in the lobby on numerous occassions.
**Perhaps there is some room for compromise here? No offense Faustus, but your idea seems like a drastic departure from the direction I have understood this game to be heading in.
My preference: Before taking away modding, I would consider adding MORE gadgets to each faction to make for better faction identity, keep modding in, maybe add a few extra or special slots here and there on different ships instead of taking away modding or setting up a loot system. It seems self-evident to me that more individuality among the factions would make this game MUCH more enjoyable than simply letting each faction loot each others tech.
I guess I lean toward MORE devices and MORE modding and I think this would make Darkspace a more entertaining game.
Thanks, please discuss.
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Malduc{-GTN-}
Cadet
Joined: January 19, 2003
Posts: 544
From: New Jersey
| Posted: 2004-02-23 12:13
I really don't understand how you can have tech that all factions can use, but only if someone gets destroyed and it drops. Why can't they just remove the items and blackmarket trade them? I don't see what would stop people from doing this. Plus, you can still build auto-repairs, elf beams, dictors, ect in factories and buy them at starports.
I think this issue alone, of coming up with new solutions to solve the problem of making all tech non-faction specific would be just as much work as balancing, which is already thought up, and ready to go by the Dev team.
Malduc
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Quinsisdos^4
Vice Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 11, 2003
Posts: 199
From: Cornwall, UK
| Posted: 2004-02-23 12:50
Would you rather please the paying players? Or please you own ideas for Darkspace?
Think Carefully F
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g0ds s0ldier
Grand Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: October 24, 2002
Posts: 954
| Posted: 2004-02-23 14:24
Its his game, but he doesnt understand what it would do...
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[ This Message was edited by: g0ds s0ldier on 2004-02-23 14:25 ]
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Drafell
Grand Admiral
Mythica
Joined: May 30, 2003
Posts: 2449
From: United Kingdom
| Posted: 2004-02-23 16:40
I think adding new devices that mimic the effects of other factions, but less effectively would work. Maybe an Elf beam that doesn't recharge yourself, but does drain the recharge of enemy ships.
And Ead with 4 Elfs in their current state would easily be able to take out any other vessel just because it would stop them from being able to recharge weapons and fire, and never run out of energy for it's CL2k's. If anything the new slot type would completely nerf the kluth to being effectively useless as they have less variation on slot type and can only fit their disruptors. Creating developed variations of items rather than completely opening up modding in this way would be much better. It would enable factions to retain their individuality.
Maybe the changes the DEV team want are too big to implement and could potentially reduce the fluidity of gameplay. I can't say for sure as none of us know more than anything vague about what they had planned. Ease of gameplay is an issue, but as said by Varz, you WOULD create an aristocracy ingame of players with ubermodded ships that new players would be unable to compete against.
More concentration should be put into improving the existing designs first so that they each play more of a role. As it is 80% of a factions ships remain unused as they have too many limitations and no benefits that warrant you choosing them for tactical reasons.
Maybe your idea would work for a short while, but it would completely remove the individuality ships currently have.
Gameplay is of importance, but you must also take care not to break the universe and background that supports it.
Faction restrictions AND a storyline that are properly balanced are extremley important for any strategy game. That is why the C&C series, HomeWorld, Warcraft/Starcraft are so sucessful, because you have the option to play races with specific advantages/disadvantages.
Unfortunately we as a communtiy have no idea of what kind of influences you draw upon when coming up with idea's. What games you have played, what games genres you prefer. But as a community we have an enormous amount of experience in terms of knowing what makes and breaks a popular game.
I think most of the more experienced players are well aware of the flaws and benefits that opening up restrictions potentially has. And on balance it doesn't look too good.
A compromise needs to be reached between the players, the devs and you. One of the few things that has kept the community going is the support you get from your us, theDev's and Admins. And you are in jeapoardy of losing this too.
So far your work looks good. We just ask you to listen to our voices.
*edit* spelling....
[ This Message was edited by: Drafell (Recruiting) on 2004-02-23 16:49 ]
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2004-02-23 16:44
This unrestricted tech Faustus talks about can definitely work, you know. There's already different slots for the items now, so it needs testing. But it's NOT the unrestricted system we saw before, I can see that just by looking at the list on page 1. Please don't judge it by your past experience with it because it's just not the same.
Basically, to have an unrestricted system stay balanced, you need cons to go along with the pros of modding a different faction's tech. Consider that cloak and autorepair are special II slots...also notice that flux waves for UGTO are special II slots and pulse shields for ICC, and that's it. Now, what are you gonna do as a human? You want cloak or autorepair? You have to give up a flux or a pulse shield. Kluth have to give up either their cloak or autorepair to mount a flux or shield.
As far as elf beams, pulse beams or flux beams, again, those are now beam II slots. You have to choose.
So there's pros and cons there (can't have it all!). Compare that to the old system where you could just give up some cannons for flux, or ECM for cloak (cloak was a special slot item?). The cons in the old system were practically nil.
Oh, and Demorian...doh! You saying there's no longer a ship overhaul in the works? I was really looking forward to that. I think it's needed along with this new slot/modding system. In fact my support for this new system is taking into account the future ship overhauls, cuz without them it just won't work...the ships aren't designed with unrestricted modding in mind plain and simple. They're all relices of an older time, a simpler time, when modding wasn't even a possibility.
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[ This Message was edited by: MrSparkle on 2004-02-23 17:13 ]
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2004-02-23 17:24
maybe if you could only get them via destroying ships AND make them say 73% less effective on your ship
for example
say a ugto player picks up a Pulse shild
it has a 27% chance of working full stop....or working that time...
il explain in more detail
Youv just killed a AC...you find theres a Pulse Shield...wow amazing better pick that up....
you equip it in the relevant slot.... now this is where it can go either way....a sworm of enemy fighters come in...you use the device...but it doesnt function....its broken full stop...chuck it......OR it doesnt work that time...but the 2nd time it does.....
im just throwing up ideas here.....SOME tech should be able to be freely equiped...but some shouldnt im thinking, some tech...i.e. cloak, flux and some others would stay faction specific
its just an idea : /
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[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash {C?} on 2004-02-23 17:26 ]
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Bobamelius
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: October 08, 2002
Posts: 2074
From: Ohio
| Posted: 2004-02-23 17:33
Nah it'd just consume more energy to recharge.
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[ This Message was edited by: Bobamelius on 2004-02-23 17:34 ]
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Sandals
Fleet Admiral
Agents
Joined: January 21, 2002
Posts: 2001
From: Redmond,WA,USA
| Posted: 2004-02-23 17:34
So, then there would be complaints about how K'luth have two special slots and ICC/UGTO have 1.
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Octurion
Grand Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: November 03, 2001
Posts: 357
From: Upstate New York, USA
| Posted: 2004-02-23 17:35
1st! what is it about making flux ugto only, pulse/shields ICC only, and cloak/auto-repair kluth only that makes the factions different? All it means is they are 99.9% the same but for one thing. Heck ICC and UGTO has the same ship ideas(AC/TC, AD/EAD, HC/BC) and kluth (FYI) is different because their ships are design based around hvy beams/ hvy weapons as to the UGTO/ICC beams/weapons lay outs (yes they do have cloak and auto-repair too which make them alot different, more so then pulse/flux makes ICC/UGTO different as well they are both nice weapons but they really dont add much difference  )
In the end there are two things that makes the factions different from each other which is the Role-playing part of the game(which I think is the most lacking of all things from the game right now and should me on the top of the list as well) and the pre-made ship designs. It has nothing to do with what very little faction tech we have......
NEXT There are only two ways that can be done that I think could work.......
1) Make all faction to be able to use all tech but add limitations to cross-faction tech. To which I have read many good ideas in this thread about how to do that.
2)Remove modding all togeather and add more ship designs (which right now is what really makes the factions different and I think is a proven method looking at what DS is now).
In the end what I am saying is
1) it is not the current faction tech that makes the factions different or uber but the ship options they have(Carr Dread vs Missile Dread or kluth dessy vs human dessy armaments). Heck I love UGTO not for flux but because of their dread options, ICC for their cruisers options, and KLuth for their dessys and station options
2) Big F is right in what he see is the only ways to balance things HOWEVER I do think Big F you are looking at things in too general terms(all or nothings) which is causeing all the out cry. I know if takes ALOT of work to program a game and you would like to keep things as simple as you can so to make less work for yourself(which I have no problem with as its not me doing the work) but I think the one thing that is clear is to have modding to work you are going have to come up with a very complicated way of doing it which sucks.
EDIT: After reading I fear I might give you the feeling I want modding to be removed, I dont I like modding and I think it does add to the game. However if there is no way to make it fit into the game in a way that works I wont being crying if it is removed. As long as other options are added at the same time.
[ This Message was edited by: Octurions's Syndrome on 2004-02-23 17:39 ]
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Smith
Fleet Admiral
Joined: October 13, 2002
Posts: 320
From: Pittsburgh
| Posted: 2004-02-23 17:42
Quote:
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On 2004-02-23 12:50, Quinsisdos^4 wrote:
Would you rather please the paying players? Or please you own ideas for Darkspace?
Think Carefully F
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i agree....
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2004-02-23 18:41
Quote:
| So, then there would be complaints about how K'luth have two special slots and ICC/UGTO have 1. |
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That's one of the reasons a ship overhaul is necessary. As far as I know, only Kluth have special II slots, and they get two per ship. For UGTO or ICC to get one of those slots, the ship would need to come with a flux wave or pulse shield.
Our old, beloved relics need to be retired and new ships designed, or we will have a big mess on our hands.
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Koda
Marshal
Fatal Squadron
Joined: August 29, 2002
Posts: 1384
| Posted: 2004-02-23 18:45
@ Faustus, if you want my Opinion here it is. The new slot Changes and such will work when there is a decreased amnt of Faction tech floating about.
I would like to Add that Ax has a good point about scarcity, if for instance your in a battle and A > B and B goes BooM! then lets say there a 75% chance youll probably get a Engine, and a 5% chance youll get Cloak.
To prevent some BLACK MARKETS being created and people giving Aid to the Enemy. Make a new window for shipyards in which people have to Unload this New part on the shipyard to have it installed on to their ship. And the old part cost would be credited to their acct. So lets say A vs B, A wins, Device1 from B's ship is a unique item.. A travels to nearest shipyard to "mod".. A Unloads D1 to shpyard and selects the item to switch out.. Blue drones come out from shipyard and new device installs and charges up. So the ACT of Modding is takken out of the hands of people and placed into part of the Shipyards functions. Thus makking it a more time consuming process to "mod". and hopefully detering any unnessasary modding. maybe even adding a amnt of time to certian items.. like 3 min for each engin and 6 min for a cloak?
As for any unbalances, each faction has there "Uberness" people dont mind fighting this way now. everyday people Rank UP playing against Flux dreads, Cl2k boats and NukeMine ACs..
I Would like to See Faustus's Vision for His game. I know some of you out there think that this Path isnt the correct one, but Faustus's vision so far has brought us this game. I think i will side with the Makker. Hail Faustus!
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[ This Message was edited by: CharAznable on 2004-02-23 18:45 ]
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Vinco
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: August 31, 2001
Posts: 939
From: Too Close for Comfort
| Posted: 2004-02-23 18:48
Faustus...
I must BEG you to reconsider some of your reasoning here. One of the things that most appealed to me about DarkSpace BEFORE modding was enabled was that all three factions had their own distinct feel. I've personally been in clans for each of the three factions, and found that UNMODDED, they are all powerful for their intended purpose. Yes, the K'luth ships died quickly in a firefight... but I've been with a hunting pack of 5-6 ships, and we could unloak, kill an outlying enemy ship, cloak, and move away without anyone knowing what really happened.
The character of each faction is perhaps the GREATEST strength that this game currently boasts. Please try to increase this uniqueness, rather than dropping it entirely as a "quick fix"
Just my personal opinion, built over the ENTIRE release life of Darkspace, as well as a reasonable chunk of the open beta.
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In Another Place
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Faustus
Marshal
Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 2748
From: Austin, Texas
| Posted: 2004-02-23 19:02
Vinco... don't worry, we had a dev meeting today... things will stay faction restricted. Locking topic.
-Richard
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[ This Message was edited by: Faustus on 2004-02-23 19:02 ]
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