| Author |
New Slots.... |
Faustus
Marshal
Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 2748
From: Austin, Texas
|  Posted: 2004-02-22 10:23
I've gone through all the device types and slots and made some adjustments that should making modding much more fair and balanced.
After the next update (monday at the latest), please everyone take a look at the new changes before making any kind of judgement on the possible removal of faction specific devices.
-Richard
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Faustus
Marshal
Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 2748
From: Austin, Texas
| Posted: 2004-02-22 10:58
Here are the new slots... and some of the devices that fall into them...
enum Type
{
UNKNOWN, // unknown device
DRIVE, // maneuvers ship and provides energy
JUMP_DRIVE, // allows intersteller travel
SPECIAL1, // ECM, ECCM, Mining beam, Reactor, Scanner
SPECIAL2, // Auto Repair, Cloak, EMP, Pulse Shield
SPECIAL3, // Worm Hole I, Interdictor
SPECIAL4, // Wome Hole II
WEAPON1, // Cannons, AR Missiles
WEAPON2, // Torpedos, IE Missiles
WEAPON3, // WeaponQSbomb
BEAM1, // CL300, CL500
BEAM2, // ELF beam, Flux Beam, IPS beam
BEAM3, // CL1000, CL2000
BOMB1, // MiRV, BPC bomb
BOMB2, // Proton cruise missile
FIGHTER_BAY, // fighter bay
MINE, // mine slot
ARMOR, // armor plate and shields
DRONE_BAY, // drones
ORB, // moderator device
};
Note, Mines now have their own slot type...
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Richard -Faustus- Lyle
Lead Programmer - DarkSpace
www.darkspace.net / www.palestar.com
[ This Message was edited by: Faustus on 2004-02-22 10:58 ]
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Axianda The Royal
Fleet Admiral
Terra Squadron
Joined: November 20, 2001
Posts: 4273
From: Axianda
| Posted: 2004-02-22 11:17
Quote:
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On 2004-02-22 10:58, Faustus wrote:
Here are the new slots... and some of the devices that fall into them...
SPECIAL2, // Auto Repair, Cloak, EMP, Pulse Shield
WEAPON3, // WeaponQSbomb
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Cant help it to see some new things...
care te tell us what your planning whit those? 
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- Axi
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Piotr-san
Chief Marshal
*Renegade Space Marines*
Joined: July 18, 2002
Posts: 385
From: Poland
| Posted: 2004-02-22 11:33
Nice i like SPECIAL2, // Auto Repair, Cloak, EMP, Pulse Shield the most.I always turned off cloak in batteles couse it was useless now i can change it for soemthing more usefull like second ar or pulse shield  .Good job and dont worry about all those whines below my post.
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* LobbyGhost votes [PB]Piotr-San for most likly to be Dems mom
Raptus regaliter
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Demorian
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: October 06, 2001
Posts: 3406
From: Charlotte, North Carolina
| Posted: 2004-02-22 11:37
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UNKNOWN, // unknown device
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Dun dun dun! Ominous music...
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DRIVE, // maneuvers ship and provides energy
JUMP_DRIVE, // allows intersteller travel
SPECIAL1, // ECM, ECCM, Mining beam, Reactor, Scanner
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These are all fine. No potential advantages except standard upgrades/low-level customization here.
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SPECIAL2, // Auto Repair, Cloak, EMP, Pulse Shield
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This is where it seems like things will get hairy. I remember back in the day when modding first came out, UGTO and ICC could cloak and mount autorepairs. It took away most, if not all, sense of faction distinction/identity. It was fun at first, don't get me wrong, but it didn't last. Yes, this actually happened before, I've seen this first hand, so I can comment on it.
The cloak and auto repair are distinctly K'luth just as the EMP and Pulse Shield devices are distinctly UGTO/ICC. I highly recommend against changing this. K'luth don't want humans cloaking, UGTO don't want enemies fluxing, and ICC don't want enemies pulsing. Seems fair to everyone.
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SPECIAL3, // Worm Hole I, Interdictor
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There is something to be said for an "Interference" Slot... For future comm jamming devices and Interdictor devices... the reason I say that is that there is a great deal of security that comes with knowing what ship is going to be stopping you from jumping out. With this modification, the ICC Jump Cruiser could use an interdictor, and the ICC Interdictor could use a Wormhole device. That security would be taken away.
I'm sure the ICC would love that, but it seems redundant to me, from any faction's standpoint. Yes, there is merit in adapting strategy when a ship does something (Interdictor creates a wormhole) that you don't expect, but enough combat strategy is already placed in simply bringing an interdictor (and avoiding it if you're on the other team) in the first place. Simply put, they create enough fear already.
I recommend a slot for interference-type devices rather than grouping wormhole/interdictors together.
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SPECIAL4, // Worm Hole II
WEAPON1, // Cannons, AR Missiles
WEAPON2, // Torpedos, IE Missiles
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These last two have worked flawlessly for years. No changes needed.
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WEAPON3, // WeaponQSbomb
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I'm not sure why this is "WEAPON" class and not "BOMB3"... are we talking W.M.D.'s here? Just pointing this out.
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BEAM1, // CL300, CL500
BEAM2, // ELF beam, Flux Beam, IPS beam
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Interesting... this would put the ELF beam back in the hands of humans, yet another K'luth tech unrestricted. Are we sure this change is necessary, or should an "ELF" slot be created for ELF field/beam?
...I think there should be a slot. Same for Flux beam. Let everyone keep their happy beams
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BEAM3, // CL1000, CL2000
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Sounds good, but where are the disruptors? I'm guessing there's a BEAM2.5 someplace around here... I still think K'luth lasers need their own slot.
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BOMB1, // MiRV, BPC bomb
BOMB2, // Proton cruise missile
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Good! This allows for the same kind of modding we've been doing and still restricts people from making PCM dreads. Looks good to me.
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FIGHTER_BAY, // fighter bay
MINE, // mine slot
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ME LIKE! This way miners are only miners, and we know what to expect... No more evil scarabs or Miner Torp Cruisers.
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ARMOR, // armor plate and shields
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Armor plates AND shields? Is ICC not set up to be the long-range, missile-based, defensive faction (or at least, it's supposed to be)? That's why they have shields... I think we should continue moving in that direction rather than open up shields to all players.
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DRONE_BAY, // drones
ORB, // moderator device
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Looks good to me 
---
Okay, based on those responses, here is a list of my recommendations.
UNKNOWN, // unknown device
DRIVE, // maneuvers ship and provides energy
JUMP_DRIVE, // allows intersteller travel
SPECIAL1, // ECM, ECCM, Mining beam, Reactor, Scanner
WORMHOLE1, // Worm Hole I
WORMHOLE2, // Worm Hole II
JAMMING, // Interdictor, [Future Comm Jamming device]
WEAPON1, // Cannons (NOT FLUX), AR Missiles
WEAPON2, // Torpedos, IE Missiles
BEAM1, // CL300, CL500, CL 550
BEAM2, // Disruptors, [Chemical Disruptors]
BEAM3, // CL1000, CL2000
BOMB1, // MiRV, BPC bomb
BOMB2, // Proton cruise missile
BOMB3, // Quantum Singularity Bomb
FIGHTER_BAY, // fighter bay
MINE, // mine slot
ARMOR, // armor plates
SHIELD, // shields
DRONE_BAY, // drones
TRACTOR // Tractor Beam (Yes, just one per ship)
ORB, // moderator device
IPS, // IPS beam (not sure about the effects of this device, gave it its own tentative slot)
Faction-specific slots* (categorized for easy viewing )
CLOAK, // Cloak
BIO, // Autorepair, [Future K'luth-hull-only devices]
ELF, // ELF beam, ELF field
EMP, // Flux Wave, Flux Beam, Flux Cannon.
PULSE, // Pulse Shield
*This is not to say that these are the only slots that will be faction-specific. These are just the ones I made the biggest faction-oriented changes to.
Again, these recommendations are based mostly on past experience.
[EDIT] Added Tractor Beam
-Dem
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``We are the GTN. You will be resupplied. Resistance is optional.``
[ This Message was edited by: Demorian on 2004-02-22 11:41 ]
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Sopwith Camel
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 651
From: Toronto
| Posted: 2004-02-22 11:38
Quote:
|
On 2004-02-22 10:58, Faustus wrote:
Here are the new slots... and some of the devices that fall into them...
enum Type
{
UNKNOWN, // unknown device
DRIVE, // maneuvers ship and provides energy
JUMP_DRIVE, // allows intersteller travel
SPECIAL1, // ECM, ECCM, Mining beam, Reactor, Scanner
SPECIAL2, // Auto Repair, Cloak, EMP, Pulse Shield
SPECIAL3, // Worm Hole I, Interdictor
...
BEAM1, // CL300, CL500
BEAM2, // ELF beam, Flux Beam, IPS beam
BEAM3, // CL1000, CL2000
...
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In SPECIAL1, what happened to the tractor beam?
In SPECIAL3, it means that a WH device can be put on any interdictor, on a different slot than the jump drive, right?
And by the way, where do disruptors fit into?
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[ This Message was edited by: Sopwith Camel {C?} on 2004-02-22 11:39 ]
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Fleet Commander, Galactic Navy
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JackSwift
Cadet
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: October 30, 2002
Posts: 1806
From: Where the Sun dont Shine (Seattle-ish)
| Posted: 2004-02-22 11:41
Quote:
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On 2004-02-22 10:58, Faustus wrote:
MINE, // mine slot
Note, Mines now have their own slot type...
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There goes my other half of my enjoyment of this game. Hopefully ships will be equipped with an alternative method of destroying those pesky K'luth destroyers...
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\"Errare Human Est.\"
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Demorian
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: October 06, 2001
Posts: 3406
From: Charlotte, North Carolina
| Posted: 2004-02-22 11:42
Thanks Sop, I added Tractor beam to my slot list based on your catch
-Dem
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2004-02-22 11:44
EMP sounds like flux...: /
QSB , i think i mright in saying this, was in DS before...but it was taken out...
and
Will the M orb be making a come back???
Gaifen following Orb lol 
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Malduc{-GTN-}
Cadet
Joined: January 19, 2003
Posts: 544
From: New Jersey
| Posted: 2004-02-22 12:21
Quote:
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On 2004-02-22 11:37, Demorian wrote:
EMP, // Flux Wave, Flux Beam, Flux Cannon.
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Pretty much everything Demo said, I like, except the above quote. Flux beam should still be Beam 1. EMP slot should be flux wave and EMP cannon only.
Very nice though Demo, I think that will work well.
Malduc
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Honor Is All
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Faustus
Marshal
Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 2748
From: Austin, Texas
| Posted: 2004-02-22 12:39
Thanks guys... thats EXACTLY the kind of feedback I was looking for, thanks especially to Demorian..
I'll review your suggestions some more, and make adjustments accordingly...
Keep in mind, we can always create special faction specific slots STILL, it's not completely ruled out, I just haven't made up my mind on this subject yet. However, I think people find it cool to destroy a K'Luth, pick up a cloaking device from the wreakage, and equip it into their ship... same for faction tech going the other way.....
Additionaly, in some ways this truely creates a balance for all factions...DarkSpace was originally designed with no ship modding, for some of you who remember. After we adding modding to the design, thats really what began the balance problems and what we've been fighting ever since that FEATURE was added. So my thought, is to make things fair to all factions, their should be NO devices that are restricted to only one faction ... the alternative is just to remove ship modding, which probably just make everyone mad
-Richard
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Richard -Faustus- Lyle
Lead Programmer - DarkSpace
www.darkspace.net / www.palestar.com
[ This Message was edited by: Faustus on 2004-02-22 12:43 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Faustus on 2004-02-22 12:44 ]
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Dwarden
Admiral
CHIMERA
Joined: June 07, 2001
Posts: 1072
From: Czech Republic
| Posted: 2004-02-22 12:49
will be efficiency of "such" way captured technology lowered? as it makes no sense to be equal as when used by real owners ...
i really dont wish to see multiple cloaks or cloaked dread or station space where capturing planet is question of equip cloak, load troops, jump, orbit, unload, loop till capture...
also i always wished to be able change from IT missiles for AR (e.g. 5 AR missiles are bit better than just 3), but this should be one way change (not IT for AR)
mines, well that's the problem, there is no real minelayer and minesweeper class and just minelayer destroyer and frigate as subclass, what to do with , e.g. put ability use light weapon slot for mines but not vice versa ...
i'm also worried about qsb return
i guess most of what i said is too complicated for now ...
demorian's thoughts as for now better scenario ... when i find something better i write it ...
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Doran
Chief Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 29, 2003
Posts: 4032
From: The Gideon Unit
| Posted: 2004-02-22 13:07
Quote:
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On 2004-02-22 10:58, Faustus wrote:
IPS beam
BPC bomb
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whazzat?
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Faustus
Marshal
Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 2748
From: Austin, Texas
| Posted: 2004-02-22 13:20
I said nothing about bringing back the QSB... but I still have the code, so it still needs a slot
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Demorian
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: October 06, 2001
Posts: 3406
From: Charlotte, North Carolina
| Posted: 2004-02-22 13:29
Quote:
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Additionaly, in some ways this truely creates a balance for all factions...DarkSpace was originally designed with no ship modding, for some of you who remember. After we adding modding to the design, thats really what began the balance problems and what we've been fighting ever since that FEATURE was added. So my thought, is to make things fair to all factions, their should be NO devices that are restricted to only one faction ... the alternative is just to remove ship modding, which probably just make everyone mad
-Richard
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"After we adding modding to the design, thats really what began the balance problems and what we've been fighting ever since that FEATURE was added." ...well, that's because true work was never put into making sure everything was properly balanced in the first place. If it was, it certainly hasn't made it to the game.
No-one said that balance was going to be easy. Ask any RTS game developer (the Age of Empire series, for instance, which has so many different teams/nations to choose from) and they will most likely tell you that the most difficult part of final development is making sure no faction has an unfair advantage, *YET* retains its individuality.
Notice that they don't make all the factions equal, Faustus, because then there would be no point in having factions in the first place. They create every nation/faction with its own distinct advantages and disadvantages that cannot be changed. By opening up ship modding way back in the day, DarkSpace entered a new and very difficult frontier of balance that very few games ever cross into.
So, with all due respect (and that's a lot), I think you need to consider what's going through your head when you think of the word "balance". Simply unrestricting tech and allowing set "faction" advantages such as cloak be distributed among all teams is not the kind of balance that will help this game, and I cannot say that with any more certainty. I've been here for two and a half years, dude; I know what we've tried before, and what has failed.
Again, it's not easy... but balance needs to come from specific advantages and disadvantages that each team has. This takes careful study and planning, and that's what we of the community and Development Team want to help you with, Faustus. Opening up the tech frontier will not "balance" the game, it will just make all factions the same in the end.
-Dem
[ This Message was edited by: Demorian on 2004-02-22 13:56 ]
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