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The Answer to Balance |
MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
|  Posted: 2003-08-16 10:28
I'm not in the situation Dem and UGTO are in right now, but I do agree with them. Taking back all those planets in all those systems and having to rebuild and reestablish everything for little to no gain seems a daunting, rewardless task.
If that is why UGTO aren't exactly jumping at the opportunity to take their planets back I don't blame them.
Plus, to tie in what I said to what Dem said, UGTO can spend all day and evening working to reestablish themselves, then when they log for the night ICC may come in again and start the cycle all over...bleh.
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Lith Ragond
Cadet
Galactic Navy
Joined: November 25, 2001
Posts: 1854
| Posted: 2003-08-16 10:40
MrSparkle, thank you so damn much for that post, i'm glad there are a few of you who actually understand.
though on a brighter note, due to my sleeping habits, i am now part of the VERY SMALL UGTO night shift... well, until 4AM EST at least.
thanks ICC, couldnt have gotten into this sleeping pattern without you.
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JediKnight
Admiral
Joined: April 23, 2002
Posts: 356
From: Jacksonville, FL
| Posted: 2003-08-16 10:55
I had made a post a long time ago suggesting that the game play very differently for members of different factions, have different ranks, make some harder to get than others, i mean anyone can be a lt. but making captain should be harder for say someone in kluth or uggy than in icc. You see what I mean? I dunno I guess I kind of look at it from a Starcraft point of view, sure make the game have 3 factions, but make them play very very differently and not with the same ships with different labels, force people to play differently and use teamwork.
To sum up the jumble above
1. Make ranking systems work different for each faction, not always double the prestige for the next rank, perhps make the UGTO that but the others different. I really think the game should feel different for each faction.
2, Balance must be perceived that each ship/device has a counter, but not a specific one. IE the pulse wave would be introduced because the new heavy disruptors hit the scene, bad example but you get the idea
more on this later?
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Orion_Prime
Cadet
Joined: December 12, 2001
Posts: 1323
From: Missouri, USA
| Posted: 2003-08-16 13:30
Quote:
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On 2003-08-16 10:16, Demorian wrote:
@Arch...
Relax. I didn't read your entire reply, but I got the gist of it, and what some of the others said was right. My topic was badly labeled. I wrote it at 2 AM and I was kind of rambling.
I DO think my idea is connected to some of the complaints about what players call "balance". That is what I intended to say... but what my post is really all about is the drive to play all fronts of DarkSpace.
Wakarimashita ka?
-Dem
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On 2003-08-16 03:27, Tbone wrote:
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On 2003-08-16 02:11, Stracius wrote:
Hey Arch, try reading the post next time before you go off on a rant  . Dem's topic is somewhat badly labeled (possibly to just grab your attention), but seriously, I'm wondering if you didn't reply in the wrong thread by mistake...
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What he said. You on the same page as some of us?
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lol, did you guys read his post? While he may have misunderstood some of the point of Demo's post, he didn't entirely. Demorian is offering a single "answer to balance" with the prestige argument, though it isn't quite as bad as Arch put it.
Arch actually said almost the same exact thing as Demorian, except Arch used different words and used PB as the example. The point Dem is trying to make is that the problem with "balance" is players, and a way to get more players is to give them "incentive."
Arch said that the key to balance is players, not the ships. Then he talked about how PB tipped the scales of "balance" by joining the other two teams to illustrate their point. Arch is ranting about how out of true context the "so-and-so's ships are too powerful."
So this is a great lesson in not only being a hippocrit (sp?), but also in "leadership by example," a skill most seem to misunderstand. This is also called "practice what you preach." Make sure you read all of Arch's post, not just the first line, before making stupid comments. That goes for you too Arch =P
Anyways, back on topic, Demorian is right and has a great idea. The problem is there are not enough players and in order to attract more, you need to lure them. What better way is there but to give out prestige?
The best and most easy way to do this now that I can think of is to fix the damned construction prestige. No one wants to fix planets because they know they will lose more prestige than they gain because of the scrapping. At hte very least make it 1:1 so that people don;t have to be afraid. That way it isn't possible to exploit it, but it still encourages people to fix planets.
Anyways, Dem is right, we need more players to achieve this "balance" everyone is talking about...
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Tbone
Grand Admiral
Joined: July 21, 2001
Posts: 1756
From: Vancouver
| Posted: 2003-08-16 14:15
Too bad so few are willing to achieve that balance for the sake of the life of this game.
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g0ds s0ldier
Grand Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: October 24, 2002
Posts: 954
| Posted: 2003-08-16 14:36
Demorian does have a point, for all the time it takes to get a System back to fully operational, you dont really gain much...and who wants to sit around for 2, 3, 4hours building a System and gaining almost nothing? not me, not you, not anyone...
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Pitch Black
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-=Arch=-
Cadet
Joined: July 10, 2002
Posts: 214
From: *CLASSIFIED*
| Posted: 2003-08-16 14:45
Im awake now ... and not half lit.
Dem, I didnt understand your post until some of the others pointed out wha tI missed as obvious.
But my comments remains .... how does one expect to achieve balance when the player activity is 90% of the problem.
Say for example they go ahead and nerf the kluth ..... then your party of 3-4 UGTO dreads will be killed by 10-15 nerfed dessies and feel even worse ... lol .. (Sorry, some arrogant humor, I must stop that)
My point is simple ..... Tbone says it the best when he keeps on about we need balance to make the game playable. What he and alot of other fail to realize it take numbers, activity and a strong player base to keep up. Nerfing an active faction to make up for lack of recruiting, activity, initiatve or whatever you want to call it inst the answer.
Even if we were all the same ... say we were all ICC, had the same tech, ships everything ..... if your fleet of 5 ships comes up against 10 ships .... you gonna die .....
And Id like to add this ..... since my brothers of the PB formed up and went to the ICC .... I now feel your pain .... Im getting my butt handed to me fighting 4 on 1 odds ..... but atleast I know that Im doing my best and its an issue of majority rules .... not that I now want the ICC nerfed cuz I cant kill everyone one of them.
Like I said late lastnight dem .. it wasnt a flame ..... but now I see what you were attempting to say ....
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g0ds s0ldier
Grand Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: October 24, 2002
Posts: 954
| Posted: 2003-08-16 14:48
Yeah, Active numbers is the key, not ships...
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Pitch Black
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Ragglock
Marshal
BIOnics Industry Syndicate
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1955
From: Denmark
| Posted: 2003-08-16 16:11
who is giving out working brains for free here ?
well spoken
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Stracius
Cadet
Joined: February 26, 2003
Posts: 96
From: Denial
| Posted: 2003-08-16 17:20
@ Orion
Umm, not only did I read it, but I re-read it again and again. Seems that you and me are interpreting arch's post differently. Maybe arch did the same on dem's post. But please don't call me a hypocrite, I take offense to that :/.
edit:: blah spelling. yeah, working brains. for free.. that'd be nice 
[ This Message was edited by: Stracius on 2003-08-16 17:22 ]
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Lith Ragond
Cadet
Galactic Navy
Joined: November 25, 2001
Posts: 1854
| Posted: 2003-08-16 21:41
Quote:
| how does one expect to achieve balance when the player activity is 90% of the problem |
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by giving the players more incentive to play <--- dems post in one sentance.
dems entire post:
Quote:
| It's been alluded to before, it's been skimmed in posts all long, uberlong, short, and one-lined... but I don't think any one post has ever been devoted to it. The answer to everyone's fights about capping, recapping, etc, lies in some subtle changes to weaponry and armor and such, sure... but what we're really talking about is incentive.
This is a game. Incentive to play is everything, and a DarkSpace player's incentive is Prestige. Let's face it... you don't get a lot of prestige for building nowadays, and that's not even the half of it.
Any faction that's well organized and has the right numbers can go on a rampage in one or two enemy systems (or the entire territory of an enemy). They will make mountains of prestige from destroying defense forces and from bombing planets to dust, crippling trade.
...and how does this this mirror the recapping force's task?
With the exception of some decent building prestige (if only two to four people are rebuilding the system), you get no prestige for re-establishing trade routes. You get no prestige for stabilizing economies and other forms of planetary management.[/b]
The mountains of prestige are to offensive forces as the molehill is to the re-establishment forces. That is what plagues so many of us... undoing what damage has been done yields no reward when it should.
I'm not saying it's all prestige, but it's DEFINITELY incentive...
Players need a reason to recap their systems and rebuild. They need something to look forward to, whatever it may be.
...just a few cents.
-Dem |
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tell, me where in that post did demo say we should nerf a faction, or that it's all the fault of uber ships?
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| lies in some subtle changes to weaponry and armor and such, sure... |
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here?
wiat...
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| but what we're really talking about is incentive. |
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damn, nope, guess he never talked about "nerfing" or "uber ships", what did he talk about then?
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| but what we're really talking about is incentive. |
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| you get no prestige for re-establishing trade routes. You get no prestige for stabilizing economies and other forms of planetary management |
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| The mountains of prestige are to offensive forces as the molehill is to the re-establishment forces. That is what plagues so many of us... undoing what damage has been done yields no reward when it should. |
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| I'm not saying it's all prestige, but it's DEFINITELY incentive...
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| Players need a reason to recap their systems and rebuild. They need something to look forward to, whatever it may be. |
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am i the only one that sees clearly as to what demo is saying?
1 hour in heavy combat, hundreds of prestige
1 hour building/setting up a system, less than 100 prestige.
i dont care if Kluth dessies have 500 CL2ks, i dont care if PB offspring fleets join a different faction every other week. i care about having a REASON to go recap, build, and set up a system.
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Specterx
Fleet Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: December 09, 2001
Posts: 547
From: Virginia/California
| Posted: 2003-08-17 15:00
You want an incentive to play?
How about some new content for a change?
1.476 (imho the peak of the game) is where PS should have started adding new content - more ships, more weapons, new platforms and fighters, etc. etc. Instead we start the year-long cycle of removing, nerfing, and dumbing-down, along with progressively more twitch-oriented and arcade-style gameplay. Arcade games hook players for the short term - minutes, hours, or days - but not for months. Getting people to pay up for several months of gameplay requires something deeper. I had a hell of a lot more fun with the original hull values, slower JDs, and smaller fuel loads than I do with the instant action game we've got now, and there's been not a single piece of new content added to fill the void.
THAT is why DS is declining.
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Orion_Prime
Cadet
Joined: December 12, 2001
Posts: 1323
From: Missouri, USA
| Posted: 2003-08-17 17:04
Amen Specterx...
And now, all the cool new stuff that was highly anticipated for this next patch has been pushed back to the magical "balance" patch.
I don't care about barracks rotating. I don't care about ECM forts. I don't care about elites being the only type of infantry. I don't care about only having 16 inf on a planet. I don't care about the rest of the random crap in the dev log. I want new content and new concepts, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
What's the point to paying for a p2p game if it's never going to change? In fact, since I've started playing, it's had its content [i]reduced[i].
Specterx is right, if you want more active players and new players, add new stuff to drive them to pay.
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Lith Ragond
Cadet
Galactic Navy
Joined: November 25, 2001
Posts: 1854
| Posted: 2003-08-17 17:37
well, thanks for reiterating what every dev for every game has ever wanted to do for their game. unfortunatly the "give it to me now" attitude will only leave you disapointed. Faus has been updating all the low level features of this game, so that when he starts giving you your new content, not only will it cause less lag, fewer crashes, but it will look nicer, be easier to use and overall more than it could be otherwise. but hey, who cares about that. just give it to us now right?
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g0ds s0ldier
Grand Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: October 24, 2002
Posts: 954
| Posted: 2003-08-17 17:43
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On 2003-08-16 21:41, Lith "Forum Lawyer" Ragond wrote:
i dont care if Kluth dessies have 500 CL2ks, i dont care if PB offspring fleets join a different faction every other week. i care about having a REASON to go recap, build, and set up a system.
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I have found your reason lith my friend...
And here it is, To Rub it in the Enemies face!!
pure genious i know, i know, thank you.
[Edit: some words werent in the right place.]
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[ This Message was edited by: g0ds s0ldier on 2003-08-17 17:49 ]
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