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Defiance's hijacked thread. (discuss whatever u want) |
Blackjack [DBL]
Grand Admiral
Faster than Light
Joined: February 25, 2011
Posts: 344
From: The land of venomous reptiles.
|  Posted: 2012-01-04 19:50
Seriously, he was trying to help people who are unable to use dreads and give them ways to do ok. Then it breaks down into a flame war. Then we all look like a bunch of stubborn morons.
I expected better of some of you.
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*FTL*Soulless
Marshal
Joined: June 25, 2010
Posts: 787
From: Dres-Kona
| Posted: 2012-01-04 20:16
thus the problem is revealed.
I will add to it now. Flying small ships feels more like an art, you get better with practise. a lot of the more advanced things cant be taught, they are learned through trial and error. Yes the basics can be learned but after that its in the Air. The reason for that is because there is so much going on with small ships, timing, dodgeing, manvering, jumping, energy.... the list goes on. Learning to manage all those in split seconds is what makes a Great crusier and below driver.
Now before others say anything, the same thing apply to dreads and stations, But not to the same degree. One simple mistake, missjudgement in timing can result in death in a small ship in under a second, with dreads they are more forgiving
And like its been said USE THE RIGHT TOOL FOR THE SITUATION
So not always will small ships work, and the same goes for dreads
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-01-04 22:55
Actually, a title change could have avoided all this.
"Bigger is not ALWAYS better."
And everybody here will probably agree.
But Defiance, being Defiance, loves flying cruisers because... (let's admit it people! ICC dreads do have a hard time when put up against the other factions' dreads) ... he doesn't have much of a choice, bless his noble heart. Plus, he's almost always outnumbered.
And so this thread becomes:
- Dreads suck, my cruisers rule
- Victory is not about killing you, it's enough to drive/bore/irritate/crotch-thrust you away
But in the big bad world of DS, almost everybody else (except for Defiance and his own) recognizes that killing the enemy, blowing up their ship, stomping their pilot into the ground, then cooking the crew into a nice goulash, then pouring it like gravy over a capped planet.... now THAT is a tangible victory.
Making the enemy go away because they're bored of chasing you around is not a victory. It's an illusion of a victory. Because he'll simply get bored of ship to ship combat and decide to field 5 stations and 10 dreads and take all of your planets instead... while you're still circling 1000 gus away in your cruisers taking potshots at them, basking in delusions of grandeur about your SPAAAAAAARRRRTTTAAAAAAAAA 300 last stand.
The irony about it is that once IQQ are in numbers, you'll see them fielding Assault, Combat and Siege dreads. It's time to take planets and kick teeth in after all!!
Hell. Who needs nimble cruisers when we have numbers and can fly bricks to steamroll the Metaverse! Hoo-Ah!!! Waaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrgh!!
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2012-01-04 22:59 ]
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2012-01-04 23:30
[ This Message was edited by: Defiance{CM7} on 2012-01-05 17:09 ]
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-01-05 00:40
Actually Def, you weren't wrong, or completely right either.
Cruisers are better than dreads in that they can dodge fire. So in that, they can be pretty survivable. But that's about it.
I agree with Ent that everywhere else, dreads are better. I used to love cruisers too, like you. Even when I could fly dreads, I stuck to my cruiser because it was nimble, cheap, fast. And those AM mines did a crap load of damage to enemy dreads and killed inattentive pesky scouts very easily.
But at the end of the day, the dreads always put the final nail into the coffin. They hit harder than my cruiser. They tanked more damage. But then again, the other factions don't have the same problem that ICC has. (hint hint: relatively weaker dreads, and being outnumbered always). And so they don't need to field cruisers to counter the enemy force.
U guys can whittle away from a distance all you want. But once the enemy dreads bunch up and have a suppie or SS with them, you're pretty much wasting your time. You might as well go play Jenga instead. Much more satisfying for the time spent. Worse still, if they get a dico and start pointjumping you.... you're hosed.
Cruisers used in your scenarios are at best, a delaying or spoiling action. Used only to impede the enemy. No victory. Like an insurgency, you become that itch on the ass that needs constant scratching.
Because we all know that you will also field stations and dreads if given the opportunity.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2012-01-05 00:43 ]
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Brutality
Marshal
Joined: May 25, 2009
Posts: 659
From: Alaska, USA
| Posted: 2012-01-05 01:17
Quote:
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On 2012-01-05 00:40, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
Actually Def, you weren't wrong, or completely right either.
Cruisers are better than dreads in that they can dodge fire. So in that, they can be pretty survivable. But that's about it.
I agree with Ent that everywhere else, dreads are better. I used to love cruisers too, like you. Even when I could fly dreads, I stuck to my cruiser because it was nimble, cheap, fast. And those AM mines did a crap load of damage to enemy dreads and killed inattentive pesky scouts very easily.
But at the end of the day, the dreads always put the final nail into the coffin. They hit harder than my cruiser. They tanked more damage. But then again, the other factions don't have the same problem that ICC has. (hint hint: relatively weaker dreads, and being outnumbered always). And so they don't need to field cruisers to counter the enemy force.
U guys can whittle away from a distance all you want. But once the enemy dreads bunch up and have a suppie or SS with them, you're pretty much wasting your time. You might as well go play Jenga instead. Much more satisfying for the time spent. Worse still, if they get a dico and start pointjumping you.... you're hosed.
Cruisers used in your scenarios are at best, a delaying or spoiling action. Used only to impede the enemy. No victory. Like an insurgency, you become that itch on the ass that needs constant scratching.
Because we all know that you will also field stations and dreads if given the opportunity.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2012-01-05 00:43 ]
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this pretty much sums it up right here. Our dreads are great if you have enough people to get a decent order of battle setup and you aren't horribly outnumbered. I really don't like flying my dreads unless I have some form of other support such as another dread or two or a stat. It's just to easy to get ganked by luth or jumped by a single EAD and destroyed when on your own in an icc dread. 
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-01-05 02:21
Which brings us to another point Bruticus.
Many of us would love to see battles with a well balanced fleet. The 'order of battle' you spoke of. Something like 3 dreads, 6 cruisers, 5 dessies. etc etc.
I wouldn't mind flying a dessie or cruiser if there was such a thing.
Although it's completely off topic and a matter to be discussed elsewhere, I just have to say it.
This game needs some sort of class limit system.... or at least, some kind of mechanism in place to limit the type of ships that can be fielded. So at least a fleet will at least look like a proper fleet of mixed ships. And not a group of titans.
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Blackjack [DBL]
Grand Admiral
Faster than Light
Joined: February 25, 2011
Posts: 344
From: The land of venomous reptiles.
| Posted: 2012-01-05 02:36
Quote:
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On 2012-01-05 02:21, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
Although it's completely off topic and a matter to be discussed elsewhere, I just have to say it.
This game needs some sort of class limit system.... or at least, some kind of mechanism in place to limit the type of ships that can be fielded. So at least a fleet will at least look like a proper fleet of mixed ships. And not a group of titans.
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Sadly, theres a percentage of people who would have a tantrum if they are unable to deploy their EAD/Siph/AD and are stuck in a dessie. Good idea in theroy, but it would not work due to this percentage.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-01-05 02:42
Quote:
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On 2012-01-05 02:36, Perseverance *FCA* wrote:
Sadly, theres a percentage of people who would have a tantrum if they are unable to deploy their EAD/Siph/AD and are stuck in a dessie. Good idea in theroy, but it would not work due to this percentage.
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Many ppl also QQed abt the new planetary system. But it went ahead anyway. I'm sure there's some way to correlate either some kind of economy system, or planets owned per system, or something else to fleet size and type.
Again, that's a discussion for another topic. But I'm sure the Devs must have thought of this somewhere down the line.
Oh, BTW...
http://www.darkspace.net/index.htm?module=forums.php&page=/viewtopic.php?topic=52286&forum=36&0
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2012-01-05 03:30 ]
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Fatal Perihelion
Chief Marshal
Fatal Squadron
Joined: April 15, 2010
Posts: 308
| Posted: 2012-01-05 03:37
Actualy i like to get roflstomped, i dont want an auto ballance by limiting shipclasses.
What i mean is, i find it fascinating that there are so many Scenarios and sometimes you can be way outnumbered but still the game works and there are ways to deal with any situation.
And i dont agree much with ICC Dreads being underpowered, this statement lowers my self esteem. ICC is doing great the last days. Actualy we are op and need a nerf.
MD owns UGTO way to hard, 2 Kluth Siphons cant kill an AD, i see them run run run.. ICC is imba
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2012-01-05 10:05
Quote:
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On 2012-01-05 02:21, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
Although it's completely off topic and a matter to be discussed elsewhere, I just have to say it.
This game needs some sort of class limit system.... or at least, some kind of mechanism in place to limit the type of ships that can be fielded. So at least a fleet will at least look like a proper fleet of mixed ships. And not a group of titans.
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It's been made pretty clear in the past that hard limits are something thats considered a big not gonna ever happen. Freedom of choice is very important to people.
Really, the biggest issue I ever see in the MV isn't the size of the ships (thats No. 2 in my book), its the player numbers on each faction. There is no scenario-like way to keep the MV faction numbers balanced, so if one side starts to win...
Well it goes downhill from there. One thing I strongly advocate is a limitation preventing fleetless players from choosing the faction with the most people on it at the time, but I don't know what kind of support that has.
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Mylith
Grand Admiral
Faster than Light
Joined: July 19, 2011
Posts: 507
From: Hivarin, CD+36*15693
| Posted: 2012-01-05 13:31
Quote:
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On 2012-01-04 17:10, Defiance{CM7} wrote:
i say ignore the indictor. Accept your fate. Deal damage to the damage dealers.
On another note. I give up. Screw it.
Was trying to make a small ship guide (actual application) for ICC built off of FTL Exp.
Aint gonna do it now, may as well delete this whole craptonametric thread.
[ This Message was edited by: Defiance{CM7} on 2012-01-04 17:13 ]
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I would love to read a guide like that, think you could ask a mod to post stuff for you in a locked thread or something?
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2012-01-05 14:02
no, but your more than welcome to join ftl
edit- fixed. I was not calling you a nut. Stupid phone 
[ This Message was edited by: Defiance{CM7} on 2012-01-05 17:03 ]
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Defiance and Opposition, a tribute to teamwork. I will remember always
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Sardaukar
Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: October 08, 2002
Posts: 1656
| Posted: 2012-01-05 16:41
Threads are about discussion. Discussion refines and explores ideas. I'm not sure why you see this thread as a failure, because it's brought up a lot of intense and, ribbing aside, civil debate.
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2012-01-05 16:46
Quote:
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On 2012-01-05 10:05, Enterprise wrote:
Well it goes downhill from there. One thing I strongly advocate is a limitation preventing fleetless players from choosing the faction with the most people on it at the time, but I don't know what kind of support that has.
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I would greatly prefer a time limit on faction changing, say 2 hours between faction changes or even longer, like 24 hours.
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