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1.701 Cannon dread Analysis |
Iwancoppa
Fleet Admiral
Joined: November 15, 2008
Posts: 709
|  Posted: 2013-10-23 05:24
Instead of whining as usual, I've decided that I Should actually do an experiment. Wierd, right? Maybe it's a new beginning.
Objective
Analyse and compare the capabilities of the Tier 1 cannon dreadnaughts.
Hypothesis
The Krill will overperform, as shown in real gameplay.
BD and CD will be balanced.
Method
Stock Battle dreads, Krills and Combat dreads were used to shoot a stock heavy cruiser target.
An ICC HC was shot at from 960GU with core and non-core cannons seperately.
Measurements were taken of shield and, where applicable, armor health percentages after each salvo.
After removal of radical outliers, the statistics were averaged.
To determine relative damage, 25% of shield health was considered 100 damage and 25% of armor health was considered 125 damage. The unit #D is signatory of this relative damage statistic.
After completion of damage analysis, One full alpha strike was fired at 10gu/s velocity to determine relative energy drain.
After completion of energy analysis, other stats were collected for presentation in the Results.
The final test collected was a 'return fire' test. The target heavy cruiser maneuvered to point blank range and fired a single cannon and torpedo broadside in to the test dreadnaught to assess the overall 'tank' of the vessel and assess the ability of the Heavy Cruiser vessel to respond to the threat.
Adjusted damage totals were created by dividing the damage from core and non-core weapons by the reload time in seconds of the core and non-core weapons in order to provide a more 'accurate' measure of DPS.
Adjusted DPS was calculated by multiplying the adjusted damage totals by armor plate HP in thousands then dividing by 100.
Results
Statistics adjusted in compliance with method:
(Krill/BD/CD)
Core weapons damage in #D: 206.5/44/30
Non-core cannon damage in #D: 0/36/35.2
HC Hitpoints in #D: 400 + 500 + ~300
Total: 1200
Damage totals in #D:
Krill: 206.5
BD: 80 (Results comment #2)
CD: 65 (Results comment #1)
Adjusted damage totals(Reload speeds factored):
Krill: 39
BD: 11
CD:10.85
Adjusted DPS totals(above data with armor HP):
Krill:46.8 (Results Comment #3)
BD: 19.25
CD: 15.12
Maximum Continuous Alpha Capability at 10gu/s
Krill: 25
BD: 100
CD: 200(Assuming ammo reload, otherwise ~100)
Conclusion/Discussion
The above results clearly show that the Krill has much higher damage potential then the other tier 1 cannon dreadnaughts. Despite its fragile armor, it still provides 2-3x better adjusted DPS then its counterparts.
Although it may only fire 25 alphas at 10gu with max energy, we must consider the relative HP of our test target. With a 200 #D alpha strike and a target with aproximately 1200 #D, you can see that not much fire is required to destroy the target. Unfortunately, as hull health can not be accurately determined, the figure of 1200 is not fully accurate. However, it can be used as a fair estimate.
Quoting Jim Starluck, the krill is designed to be an anti-cruiser warship. However, it has far more power then it needs for this role and is thus also effective against dreadnaughts, and, to an extent, stations.
This effect is only exacerbated when a full 48% set of multiplexing enhancements is used to increase the damage. With such a set, a Krill can nearly hull a cruiser in one volley.
Another consideration for the Krill must be made - it was firing at maximum falloff, 960GU. The BD was firing within falloff, at 960GU, with a range of 1000 on cannons and 1200 on Heavy Positron cannons. The CD has no falloff. Continuing in the next paragraph..
SI maximum falloff is 66% damage. This means that the SIs were dealing 2/3 of their maximum damage. This means that at the beginning of falloff, the Krill deals a whopping 300 relative damage per salvo. Compare this to the relatively puny salvo damage of the Combat dread, at 65. At point blank range, the Krill deals 4.6x the amount of damage that the Combat dread deals. It would be irresponsible of me to note that the CD does have advantages in other areas, but 4.6x the damage is still a highly significant sum.
In summary, I believe my hypothesis was correct. Using the statistical evidence provided and other logical trains of thought, I safely conclude the Krill is overperforming. Here's a recap:
+Highest final adjusted damage figure by 2-3x
+Was most effected by falloff yet still had highest damage
+Role designation is for an 'anti-cruiser' vessel, yet damage is suitable for dreadnaught level targets
Suggestions
The krill is currently a competent multi-role tier 1 ship, which is not intended. I suggest that changes be made to ensure it is in line with the other tier 1 cannon dreads, suitable for an Anti-cruiser role and not as suitable for an anti-dread/anti-station role.
Alternatively, The krill could be changed to be an anti-dread platform designed to operate at medium ranges of ~700gu. Changes would be need to be made to ensure that it is no longer effective against smaller sized vessels.
Considering that the BD and Krill were both firing near the end/at the end of falloff, the CD's damage output should be considered for a small buff.
Thankyou for reading and considering the statistics and evidence presented in this experiment report. Please discuss below.
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Further Results commets
#1
I'd also like to take the liberty to point out that, even at the edge of falloff for the krill and near the edge of falloff for the BD, the CD is still doing less damage. Considering it gets no damage advantage at closer ranges, and the rotateable shields are counteracted by having less HP(and worse resists), I think it would be fair if the CD and BD had equal damage at the BD's maximum falloff.
#2
For the sake of consistency, the heavy positron cannon should be adjusted to have a refire time in line with the particle cannon weapons, with damage and energy useage adjusted accordingly.
#3
Not factored in to the final set of damage numbers was the presence of a cloaking device on the krill. Although this can not be factored in numerically, it's safe to say that effectively that number is even larger then it is due to the presence of a cloaking device.
#4
Response to Proposed changes by Pantheon
While increasing the damage falloff provides a sound solution to the Krill's long-range damage ability, I'd like to point out that doing this will not reduce the short range damage of this ship. At close range, the Krill puts out far more damage then it should for an anti-cruiser role or a support gunship role.
[ This Message was edited by: iwancoppa on 2013-10-24 04:42 ]
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2013-10-23 06:55
Quote:
On 2013-10-23 05:24, iwancoppa wrote:
The krill is currently a competent multi-role tier 1 ship, which is not intended.
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That right there is a classic statement.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2013-10-23 07:42
l refrain from commenting until I see the figures from Jim or Wally.
Interesting observation though.
edit:
However, outside the figures, I have to say that 'Anti Cruiser' usually means anti-cruiser AND above, given the reduced turn rates and performance of dreads and stations this patch. The Krill is simply more effective at hitting cruisers than other dreads are.
So don't take the description too literally.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2013-10-23 08:09 ]
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2013-10-23 07:55
Hm, sounds like the falloff on the krill's cannons are too small thus making them deal too much damage at range, if this data is accurate.
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Pantheon
Marshal
Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1789
| Posted: 2013-10-23 08:25
Thanks for testing. Adding falloff is most probably what we'll go for, and is a very easy thing to do.
[ This Message was edited by: Pantheon on 2013-10-23 08:28 ]
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Scorched Soul[+R]
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: November 14, 2005
Posts: 378
From: USA, NJ, Princeton
| Posted: 2013-10-23 16:14
Where was your Abstract? (Ha. Ha. Ha. (I'm sorry I typed that))
also your test doesn't take into account that SI's only fire 2 volleys per an activation making them easier to dodge or the speed of fired projectiles not that i know what they are for any of the gadgets involved.
so maybe the krill isn't really an anti cruiser ship, I'm not convinced that SI's or the Krill's layouts need changed. Maybe you could shuffle it around rank, badge and tier wise. Ganglia always struck me as the combo missile and gun ship anyway, so what if ganglia shifted down to tier 1 and krill shifted up to tier 2, or Krill could swap places with mandible as the "torpedo boat" since that's what it's pretty close to already, and mandible could be reworked into the gunboat seeing as how it is already an exact copy of the eclipse except it has a lot less ecm, one less armor plate and one less neutronium torpedo. I'm not wild about either one because i've seen dreads dodge the neutronium torps at 300 gu's, the splash back if you get too close does more damage than the ship your trying to kill and the AM torps do haha that tickles damage by comparison. In my personal opinion I wouldn't mind seeing the Mandible trade its neutronium torps for a comparable number of cannons.
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Iwancoppa
Fleet Admiral
Joined: November 15, 2008
Posts: 709
| Posted: 2013-10-23 17:27
Quote:
On 2013-10-23 16:14, Scorched Soul[+R] wrote:
Where was your Abstract? (Ha. Ha. Ha. (I'm sorry I typed that))
also your test doesn't take into account that SI's only fire 2 volleys per an activation making them easier to dodge or the speed of fired projectiles not that i know what they are for any of the gadgets involved.
so maybe the krill isn't really an anti cruiser ship, I'm not convinced that SI's or the Krill's layouts need changed. Maybe you could shuffle it around rank, badge and tier wise. Ganglia always struck me as the combo missile and gun ship anyway, so what if ganglia shifted down to tier 1 and krill shifted up to tier 2, or Krill could swap places with mandible as the "torpedo boat" since that's what it's pretty close to already, and mandible could be reworked into the gunboat seeing as how it is already an exact copy of the eclipse except it has a lot less ecm, one less armor plate and one less neutronium torpedo. I'm not wild about either one because i've seen dreads dodge the neutronium torps at 300 gu's, the splash back if you get too close does more damage than the ship your trying to kill and the AM torps do haha that tickles damage by comparison. In my personal opinion I wouldn't mind seeing the Mandible trade its neutronium torps for a comparable number of cannons.
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The SI has velocity for cruiser hitting. The two shots are consistent with other core weapons. Wether they hit cruisers or not us a seperate issue. The issue raised here is the massive damage the krill projectds.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2013-10-23 20:24
Quote:
On 2013-10-23 16:14, Scorched Soul[+R] wrote:
Where was your Abstract? (Ha. Ha. Ha. (I'm sorry I typed that))
also your test doesn't take into account that SI's only fire 2 volleys per an activation making them easier to dodge or the speed of fired projectiles not that i know what they are for any of the gadgets involved.
so maybe the krill isn't really an anti cruiser ship, I'm not convinced that SI's or the Krill's layouts need changed. Maybe you could shuffle it around rank, badge and tier wise. Ganglia always struck me as the combo missile and gun ship anyway, so what if ganglia shifted down to tier 1 and krill shifted up to tier 2, or Krill could swap places with mandible as the "torpedo boat" since that's what it's pretty close to already, and mandible could be reworked into the gunboat seeing as how it is already an exact copy of the eclipse except it has a lot less ecm, one less armor plate and one less neutronium torpedo. I'm not wild about either one because i've seen dreads dodge the neutronium torps at 300 gu's, the splash back if you get too close does more damage than the ship your trying to kill and the AM torps do haha that tickles damage by comparison. In my personal opinion I wouldn't mind seeing the Mandible trade its neutronium torps for a comparable number of cannons.
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The Krill is a T1 ship because it carries only 1 type of weap (PD nonwithstanding), and that is the Stellar Incinerator. The Gang carries both missiles and cannon, hence the T2 tag.
The main issue Coppa has with the Krill is basically the SIs. The SI has increased range from 1.6x, has relatively fast moving projectiles which does quite a lot of damage, and can deal two-thirds of it at max range.
Not to mention that the Krill also has LOTS of them. The Krill is a glass cannon amongst dreads. It's a unique ship meant to hit cruisers at moderate to close ranges, and deal damage to dreads and stations at long range. It cannot knifefight effectively.
The falloff for SIs will be increased, according to Panth, to compensate for its ability. This will, affect all other SI equipped ships across the board of course.
Personally I think that's a reasonable tradeoff. The Krill will still retain its ability as a standoff fire support dread, but deals less damage at extreme range to avoid being overpowered.
It's a lot better than the nerfed Krill in 1.6, wouldn't you think? With 4 SIs and 5 cannons. That version was so useless, nobody flew it.
One thing I had hoped for Coppa to test was a 1 v 1, Krill vs BD or CD starting at 1000gus, facing each other. Statistics are always one thing, when you stand still and pound at each other. But battles usually tell a different tale.
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Iwancoppa
Fleet Admiral
Joined: November 15, 2008
Posts: 709
| Posted: 2013-10-23 20:40
Quote:
On 2013-10-23 20:24, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-10-23 16:14, Scorched Soul[+R] wrote:
Where was your Abstract? (Ha. Ha. Ha. (I'm sorry I typed that))
also your test doesn't take into account that SI's only fire 2 volleys per an activation making them easier to dodge or the speed of fired projectiles not that i know what they are for any of the gadgets involved.
so maybe the krill isn't really an anti cruiser ship, I'm not convinced that SI's or the Krill's layouts need changed. Maybe you could shuffle it around rank, badge and tier wise. Ganglia always struck me as the combo missile and gun ship anyway, so what if ganglia shifted down to tier 1 and krill shifted up to tier 2, or Krill could swap places with mandible as the "torpedo boat" since that's what it's pretty close to already, and mandible could be reworked into the gunboat seeing as how it is already an exact copy of the eclipse except it has a lot less ecm, one less armor plate and one less neutronium torpedo. I'm not wild about either one because i've seen dreads dodge the neutronium torps at 300 gu's, the splash back if you get too close does more damage than the ship your trying to kill and the AM torps do haha that tickles damage by comparison. In my personal opinion I wouldn't mind seeing the Mandible trade its neutronium torps for a comparable number of cannons.
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The Krill is a T1 ship because it carries only 1 type of weap (PD nonwithstanding), and that is the Stellar Incinerator. The Gang carries both missiles and cannon, hence the T2 tag.
The main issue Coppa has with the Krill is basically the SIs. The SI has increased range from 1.6x, has relatively fast moving projectiles which does quite a lot of damage, and can deal two-thirds of it at max range.
Not to mention that the Krill also has LOTS of them. The Krill is a glass cannon amongst dreads. It's a unique ship meant to hit cruisers at moderate to close ranges, and deal damage to dreads and stations at long range. It cannot knifefight effectively.
The falloff for SIs will be increased, according to Panth, to compensate for its ability. This will, affect all other SI equipped ships across the board of course.
Personally I think that's a reasonable tradeoff. The Krill will still retain its ability as a standoff fire support dread, but deals less damage at extreme range to avoid being overpowered.
It's a lot better than the nerfed Krill in 1.6, wouldn't you think? With 4 SIs and 5 cannons. That version was so useless, nobody flew it.
One thing I had hoped for Coppa to test was a 1 v 1, Krill vs BD or CD starting at 1000gus, facing each other. Statistics are always one thing, when you stand still and pound at each other. But battles usually tell a different tale.
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Will test that this afternoon.
Going to add that the krill is not as glass as you say it is, especially with cloak factored in.
[ This Message was edited by: iwancoppa on 2013-10-23 20:44 ]
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Scorched Soul[+R]
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: November 14, 2005
Posts: 378
From: USA, NJ, Princeton
| Posted: 2013-10-23 22:56
Quote:
On 2013-10-23 20:24, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
The Krill is a T1 ship because it carries only 1 type of weap (PD nonwithstanding), and that is the Stellar Incinerator. The Gang carries both missiles and cannon, hence the T2 tag.
The main issue Coppa has with the Krill is basically the SIs. The SI has increased range from 1.6x, has relatively fast moving projectiles which does quite a lot of damage, and can deal two-thirds of it at max range.
Not to mention that the Krill also has LOTS of them. The Krill is a glass cannon amongst dreads. It's a unique ship meant to hit cruisers at moderate to close ranges, and deal damage to dreads and stations at long range. It cannot knifefight effectively.
The falloff for SIs will be increased, according to Panth, to compensate for its ability. This will, affect all other SI equipped ships across the board of course.
Personally I think that's a reasonable tradeoff. The Krill will still retain its ability as a standoff fire support dread, but deals less damage at extreme range to avoid being overpowered.
It's a lot better than the nerfed Krill in 1.6, wouldn't you think? With 4 SIs and 5 cannons. That version was so useless, nobody flew it.
One thing I had hoped for Coppa to test was a 1 v 1, Krill vs BD or CD starting at 1000gus, facing each other. Statistics are always one thing, when you stand still and pound at each other. But battles usually tell a different tale.
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I was unaware of the traits that define a T1 ship, everything makes a little more sense now, I wished, because im a selfish K'luth player, that SI's weren't getting a change across the board, but I guess it makes sense. In any case I love the 1.7 krill over the 1.6 wet paper bag.
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iwancoppa2
Ensign
Joined: October 23, 2013
Posts: 12
| Posted: 2013-10-23 23:55
Nevermind, not going to test the Krill vs other tier 1 cannon dreads. The math proves that it will win.
The 1.6 'useless' krill would fit very well in to 1.7. Although the layout was garbage in 1.6, that was due to issues with other ships being poorly balanced, etc.
4 Core weapons and 5 cannons would balance the Krill for its tier 1 cannon dreadnaught role exceptionally well.
A 4 SI, 5 Cannon krill would bring the krill in line with the other faction's tier 1 cannon dreadnaughts and make it not as overpowered as it is now.
Original post updated with analysis of CD results.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2013-10-24 01:23
Actually Scorched... scratch that. I was a little off in my analysis.
T1 dreads are so called because they carry one type of weap or role. In this case, SIs are cannons... as are PSI/Plasma cannons. It does not mean that they're restricted to a single type/variant of weapons (ie. all SI or all cannons)
A Krill could be outfitted 50-50 with a mix of SIs and PSIs and still remain Tier 1.
But if you want to fit it with cannons and missiles/beams/torpedoes/fighters ... then it will have to be T2.
My bad. Remind me not to post next time when sleep deprived.
That being said, it will ultimately fall to Jim and Wally on what they want to do with the Krill. If they decide to take some SIs off and replace it with PSIs, it is their call.
@Coppa: Yes it probably could be refitted. But it depends on what the Krill was meant to be.
In this case, the Krill is actually a medium range fire support ship, and not a battle/combat vessel.
Again, I would suggest, try using the BD and CD against it in a knife fight, and then post the results. If you want to test it in Beta with me, I can take the Krill, and you the BD/CD. Gimme a ping when you see me in lobby... but it's gotta be in the morning (your timezone) as I'm on the other side of this lump of rock from you.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2013-10-24 01:50 ]
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Iwancoppa
Fleet Admiral
Joined: November 15, 2008
Posts: 709
| Posted: 2013-10-24 03:50
Alright, Will be glad to do that. Nothing better then math that lines up with real-life tests 
I can probably do this saturday, my fridays are hectic.
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2013-10-24 17:40
Looking over the layouts and my design documents, I think a large part of this is due to the Krill's weapon arcs.
The ICC Combat Dread has a very heavy emphasis on broadside firepower. It can bring 2 Ion Cannons and 8 Heavy Railguns to bear on a target broadsides, 2 Ions and 6 Rails on a target fore, and 4 heavy rails on a target aft.
Total points spent on weapons: 56 points
Maximum point-value on-target: 26 points
DPS per point: 420 (ICC weapons are weaker)
Total overall DPS: 10920
The UGTO Battle Dread, on the other hand, takes more of a well-rounded approach, with a modest emphasis on forward firepower. It can bring 2 Heavy Positron Cannons and 7 Heavy Particle Cannons to bear on a fore target, 2 Positron and 6 Particle broadside, 6 Particle aft.
Total points spent on weapons: 56 points
Maximum point-value on-target: 24 points
DPS per point: 600 (UGTO weapons are middle-of-the-road)
Total overall DPS: 14400
Damage falloff: 83.33%
Max range DPS: 12000
The K'Luth Krill is different than the other two, however. Not only does it have a pure core cannon armament, while the others split betwen core and heavy cannons, it also has far more restrictive arcs... which means it packs in more firepower, because each individual weapon is cheaper. It can bring a whopping 7 Stellar Incinerators to bear forward, 4 broadside and only 2 aft.
Total points spent on weapons: 60 points (they have a bit more room due to sacrificing Armor to equip Cloak)
Maximum point-value on-target: 35
DPS per point: 720 (K'Luth weapons are stronger)
Total overall DPS: 25200
Damage falloff: 66.66%
Max range DPS: 16800
Falloff for K'Luth cannons is already quite high, and I'd be hesitant to change something that affects ships across the board just to nerf one. I'd rather look at breaking the Krill's armament down across multiple arcs rather than being so heavily forward-focused. Even if we keep the all-Stellar Incinerator concept going, if we can bring it down to at most 5 of them on one target it should get it a lot more under control.
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Iwancoppa
Fleet Admiral
Joined: November 15, 2008
Posts: 709
| Posted: 2013-10-24 18:31
That's a great idea jim.
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