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is 484's new modding system really nessessary? |
GothThug {C?}
Fleet Admiral
Joined: June 29, 2005
Posts: 2932
|  Posted: 2006-10-06 15:44
i dont think it is...i dont like the idea of not being able to mod out the slots the way i like it....so i suggest keeping the modding the same as is minus the ability for Missle Cruisers To Dreads the ability to mod out missles for torps..plus i think all the kluth ships should get Torps instead of shredders/PSI missles, or just make the weapons ship specific like Torps for heavy combat ships like Torp Cruiser, EAD, BD, AD, Combat Dread, Mandible, Ganglia, and the dessies, The combat Dessie has 2 Missle Slots but how can it defend it self in close range combat? it cant, so give it 2 Torp Slots 
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Drafell
Grand Admiral
Mythica
Joined: May 30, 2003
Posts: 2449
From: United Kingdom
| Posted: 2006-10-06 16:49
The biggest reason for this change is that them current modding system is too flexible, and extremely difficult to balance. The 'ideal' behind the DS ship design is for each ship to have a useful and defined role. The purpose for modding is simply to allow players to further specialize within these roles to suit their own particular playstyle.
Under the current system pretty much all combat class ships are generic. There are no specific close or long ranged ships due to CL's and cannons being swappable; torp/missile swapping also breaks this purpose.
The changes are intended (and necessary) to address this balance, and make over powered designs essentially impossible.
Please bare in mind that we have not finished testing. A large number of ships will need tweaking and optimising to fit the new system.
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Leonide
Grand Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: October 01, 2005
Posts: 1553
From: Newport News, Virginia
| Posted: 2006-10-06 17:50
goth, i am with ya on the Battle Dread. it needs more than one torpedo slot. i say it should has 3 torp slots and 2 missile slots.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2006-10-07 03:36
The modding systems is also to simplify the process for new players, as the old system was too complicated. But you hit the nail spot on the head on why we're changing it. Too many players are just finding ships, and modding them out to play how they were not intended to be played, and therefor breaking the game.
This change allows us to limit faction items to the right faction, and allow us to balance the game easier than we were able too before.
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Russian Roulette with Muskets
Grand Admiral
Joined: September 04, 2002
Posts: 393
| Posted: 2006-10-11 14:21
well..... let me put it this way:
The reason we mod the ships is: The load out simply SUCKS.
Why does it suck? because half of the weapons are useles by default.
So why are you suprised we mod our ships with missiles and cannons?
Torpedos are almost exclusivly usable (efficiently) ba smaller craft (who can actualy get close enough to hit with them).
for example:
What blockhead did put torpedos onto a dreadnought? That thing moves with 15 GU tops, means it will never get close enough for those torpedoes to hit anything (i remember the times when you could angage a cruiser, knowing youre able to actualy hit it). Even Dreads dodge them regualry.
Next issue: small chemical lasers. useles. damage is pathetic even at close range and the way you get spammed with missiles the lasers dont help against that either.
so i modded them for p cannons (a fine mix of low levels and level 10's) and now (for example) my ead can field an effective weapon against those pescy cruisers. (still dies to destroyers)
And now, 2 Lame torpedoes in the REAR ARCs dont help in any way.
I hope you consider that when you alter the layots again or restrict modding in any way.
id actualy like to see that torpedos get more shots with higher levels, more traveling speeds but less tracking (aka turning a level 10 torpedo in something more like a giant cannon). Destroyers will still dodge it (since they basicly dodge anthing) and cruisers will have to make sure not avoid the front arcs. dreads can slug it out like... dreads and stations will spam missiles anyway.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2006-10-11 15:17
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On 2006-10-11 14:21, Daimen wrote:
well..... let me put it this way:
The reason we mod the ships is: The load out simply SUCKS.
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That is true for some ships, and we aim to fix those ships, but a large majority of them are fine - you're just not using them how they're meant to be used.
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Why does it suck? because half of the weapons are useles by default.
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See "You're not using them how they're meant to be used".
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So why are you suprised we mod our ships with missiles and cannons?
Torpedos are almost exclusivly usable (efficiently) ba smaller craft (who can actualy get close enough to hit with them).
for example:
What blockhead did put torpedos onto a dreadnought? That thing moves with 15 GU tops, means it will never get close enough for those torpedoes to hit anything (i remember the times when you could angage a cruiser, knowing youre able to actualy hit it). Even Dreads dodge them regualry.
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What blockhead uses a dreadnought to take on small ships with slow moving weapons? Use your beams to attack them (We are fixing them). They work perfectly for what they're designed to do, infact, the torpedo's are THE most balanced weapon in the game. They're designed for close-combat, not 500gu +.
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Next issue: small chemical lasers. useles. damage is pathetic even at close range and the way you get spammed with missiles the lasers dont help against that either.
so i modded them for p cannons (a fine mix of low levels and level 10's) and now (for example) my ead can field an effective weapon against those pescy cruisers. (still dies to destroyers)
And now, 2 Lame torpedoes in the REAR ARCs dont help in any way.
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We're fixing the beam issue, we know it's far from perfect, and we'll keep testing until we find a suitable level of damage for them.
Since weapons will be locked, you will no longer be able to modify ship layouts to how you desire (completly). DarkSpace is not all about finding a ship with more weapon slots for the most powerful weapon in DarkSpace and modifying it for use in a situation it was not designed.
Cannons and beam type weapons will no longer be swapable, and neither will torpedo's and missiles. You will need to live with this, but we will work to introduce more weapon-types in the future, so that people can play about with setups without breaking the game like it has done in the past.
We will look into some ship layouts, like the EAD (as you most probably know, it's my favourite ship). We aim to give each ship a suitable role to fill by default, right out of the dock, so there is no need for modding.
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id actualy like to see that torpedos get more shots with higher levels, more traveling speeds but less tracking (aka turning a level 10 torpedo in something more like a giant cannon). Destroyers will still dodge it (since they basicly dodge anthing) and cruisers will have to make sure not avoid the front arcs. dreads can slug it out like... dreads and stations will spam missiles anyway.
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There are no issues with torpedo's, however, if we do find some in our testing (when 1.484 is nearer a testing phase), we will make the changes to ballance it out.
I'm talking as both a developer and player here, we aim to make 1.484 as close to balanced as possible, but to do that, there will be some modding sacrafices made. We will most probably add more weapons in the future though, so players have more veriaty, but not a generic weapon that is more powerful, as 1.483 has shown us that is wrong.
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2006-10-11 20:13
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On 2006-10-11 15:17, BackSlash *Jack* wrote:
Cannons and beam type weapons will no longer be swapable, and neither will torpedo's and missiles. You will need to live with this, but we will work to introduce more weapon-types in the future, so that people can play about with setups without breaking the game like it has done in the past.
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...So that leaves us with...zero beam type weapo upgrades (Point defence or attack), and zero cannon type upgrade (Long range railgun or partical cannon? Don't even get me started on that waste of a gauss weapon.
You know, the gauss gun would be useful it bypassed...armor and shields. Maybe you know. a tiny bit of hull damage.
So, what weapons are we getting? I mean, you use beams for two things:
a) shooting down missles (pulse laser. thats it.)
b) pew pew shooting enemy ships (upgrade it to the most powerful CL or disruptor. CL-500! Cl-501 Cl-502....
So beams are going to be screwed. I liked being able to switch out cannons and beams, depending on where i'm battling (near a planet or out in space).
Know what needs fixing: arcs. Why are restricted to 4 degrees? why not actuall degree arcs? That would super-balance some ships that are like "hah! this weapon is bolted on the side, but I get full 90 front arc coverage anyway!"
Another thing: Armor rings. Are we ever going to get armor rings to hug the ship EVER? I remember I wrote up a good post about that years ago.
One more thing: Weapons shouldn't fire if you got out of the arc (I'm looking at you, k'luth. .1sec of forward arc, 4.9seconds of not facing the enemy ship)
and one one more thing: You select the ships diamond. Even though your weapon could still fire and hit the enemy ships armor rings, you are still "out of range", making you waste time contrl clicking near the ship and firing.
okay i'm done.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2006-10-12 05:14
You must misunderstand somehow.
We still have beams, they just won't be interchangable with cannons, and cannons can still be changed within your faction tech.
IE:
Standard CL > Flux Beam (UGTO).
Standard CL > Pulse Beam (ICC).
Particle Cannon > EMP Cannon (UGTO).
Railgun > Gauss Cannon (ICC).
See how this works, this allows us to control the technology each faction gets, and in doing so, stops the imbalance of the game by quite some degree (Mandable with Particle Cannons and F torps, should be a no-no, same with EAD with AM torps).
We'll still have all the weapons, but you'll only be able to modify them if the slot is able too ie - if you have two Standard CL's, you can swap them out for Pulse Beams.
Arcs work perfectly, however, there are ships that need their setups evaluated, and possibly changed, so that each standard setup has a use, so no modding is needed, but there is still some possibility to swap some weapons out for others, if say you want less damage and more defence, or more acuracy for less damage (Pulse Beam + Flux Cannon).
There's always the possibilty to add more weapons in the future, but the primairy concern is getting DarkSpace back on track, as I think we can all agree, the stage it is at now, is not acceptable.
The 'weapons not able to fire', is not a bug. The ship is going too fast, away from you, so the weapons would not be able to hit them (they would 'die' before reaching).
- Jack
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash *Jack* on 2006-10-12 05:16 ]
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Russian Roulette with Muskets
Grand Admiral
Joined: September 04, 2002
Posts: 393
| Posted: 2006-10-12 11:11
o.O no to diect hull damage weapons..
nothing should simply bypass armor or shilds.
concerning the ship layoits:just remember: missiles suck if not used in real swarms, so don't dare to mix in one or 2 missilies between.. say torpedoes...
Keep em missiles to ships with "missile this, missile that" in name.
If im flying an Assault Dread (Elite even) i demand a set of torpedos facing front (and maybee some left and right arcs like it is now), not rear ^^.
bottom line: please do not make weird weapon mixes again.
for example: ead with p cannons, torps and heavy lasers has proven quite useful (at least to me). its close to medium range, against big targets even long range. the qst is a nice addon.
PD is left to either escort crafts or ignored completly thus no lasers.
thats what i'd call an assault ship. see any missile there?
only mix weapons that actualy work good together. (and small beams dont work for anything... at least not on a dread. )
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Supertrooper
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: March 18, 2004
Posts: 1895
From: Maryland, U.S.A
| Posted: 2006-10-12 16:30
Anyone care to remember that..
A) Ship Layouts havent even been reconfigured, and will be before .484 is released.
B) Weapons havent been fixed/worked on yet.
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2006-10-12 16:47
The other thing we could do is that instead of allowing a large range of modding, restrict modding pretty heavily and then add a bunch more ships - that way you don't necessarily have to mod as much because there are more ships for more roles.
The trouble with that is that if you keep loose-ish modding, it means you can potentially get situations like now, where a modded missile cruiser with torps is better than a torp cruiser. So that's really only feasible with pretty strict modding.
Anyway, this isn't necessarily our policy; just tossing it out there as a potential direction.
And please, don't hesitate to suggest stuff. We need to be as informed as possible to make the game as good as possible.
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Russian Roulette with Muskets
Grand Admiral
Joined: September 04, 2002
Posts: 393
| Posted: 2006-10-12 19:31
Restricting certain weapons to certain ships is nothing im against.
i just don't want to see shiplayouts that simply are useless (take out any ship right now an see what i mean...)
and no, i don't have enough faith in your redesign. (it basicly sucked the first three times after all).
no more mixes, specialisation is king.
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2006-10-12 20:43
Backy, I think you misunderstood me mistunderstooding you. or something
here are some things that need to be "fixed" before we can complain about "balancing"
1) Armor Rings. I can under stand shields being a fixed distance from a ship...but armor? Seriously. Think how much combat would change if armor actually formed around the hull. Think about all the new ship designs we could have. Think about the changes in strategy that could come from this.
2) Arcs. Although I think arcs are screwed up, my main beef is this:
I have a beam. this beam weapon is rear arc. I am flying a ship that can turn *really* fast. I fire my rear arc, and then turn. The enemy ship is within arc range during fire, HOWEVER, when I turn, it is out of range.
the beam still fires. the cannons still fire. The enemy ship can jump away an ungodly amount of distance and the beam would still do damage do it (Try this scenario: have a k'luth dread disruptor you, and then jump. Watch the damage on your ship. I can kill you, if your armor is down and you have low enough health)
If these two things were fixed, combat would be *greatly* improved.
Those are the only things I feel need fixing in combat besides weapon balancement
So, CL goes to FLUX? so that means FLUX is superior right? Otherwise, why would I ever upgrade to flux adn spend money on it?
The thing is, DS is trying to walk on an invsible line. A line, where, skill can overcome modding and time spent into a ship to a limit, but modding and time spent into a ship can overcome skill to a limit.
So, let's discuss.
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Leonide
Grand Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: October 01, 2005
Posts: 1553
From: Newport News, Virginia
| Posted: 2006-10-15 20:21
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On 2006-10-12 20:43, Fattierob (x2 ND-001 Nadesico) wrote:
1) Armor Rings. I can under stand shields being a fixed distance from a ship...but armor? Seriously. Think how much combat would change if armor actually formed around the hull. Think about all the new ship designs we could have. Think about the changes in strategy that could come from this.
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I would love to see that fix. the dreads would be more agile if you did that fix. for example, when a Mandy is beaconed, you expect the beacon to be on the hull, not 10 GU away from the hull on the edge of the armor rings floating in space....
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2006-10-16 06:59
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On 2006-10-12 20:43, Fattierob (x2 ND-001 Nadesico) wrote:
Backy, I think you misunderstood me mistunderstooding you. or something
here are some things that need to be "fixed" before we can complain about "balancing"
1) Armor Rings. I can under stand shields being a fixed distance from a ship...but armor? Seriously. Think how much combat would change if armor actually formed around the hull. Think about all the new ship designs we could have. Think about the changes in strategy that could come from this.
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There is no need for this, the current rings serve as an indicator only, and it would be hard for someone to try and look at a scout going that quickly with rings hugged to its hulls. Also some of us who are colour blind would not be able to distincivly recognize it, so I don't see what it really does bring to the game, although me and Draf did want to do something different with armor rings a while gack.
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2) Arcs. Although I think arcs are screwed up, my main beef is this:
I have a beam. this beam weapon is rear arc. I am flying a ship that can turn *really* fast. I fire my rear arc, and then turn. The enemy ship is within arc range during fire, HOWEVER, when I turn, it is out of range.
the beam still fires. the cannons still fire. The enemy ship can jump away an ungodly amount of distance and the beam would still do damage do it (Try this scenario: have a k'luth dread disruptor you, and then jump. Watch the damage on your ship. I can kill you, if your armor is down and you have low enough health)
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I don't see a problem with this really. And you're actually wrong. Once someone is out of range of a weapon (beam), it will not do any damage. The reason you still take damage is because the server is still sending you information from when you where next to the dread - you simply havn't recieved allthe data.
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If these two things were fixed, combat would be *greatly* improved.
Those are the only things I feel need fixing in combat besides weapon balancement
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I can't see how these *greatly* improve combat. They'd possibly actually detract, and think about what happens if someone waltzes in and out of your firing arc for 0.1 seconds, you're going to waste your energy, and time, and I can see it annoying people.
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So, CL goes to FLUX? so that means FLUX is superior right? Otherwise, why would I ever upgrade to flux and spend money on it?
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It can upgrade to a flux beam, but a flux beam can be upgraded to a CL. Works both ways. If you want a chance to do more systems damage, flux it is, if not, CL's baby. Same with ICC, less damage more defence = pulse, or if you choose not too, go with CL.
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The thing is, DS is trying to walk on an invsible line. A line, where, skill can overcome modding and time spent into a ship to a limit, but modding and time spent into a ship can overcome skill to a limit.
So, let's discuss.
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Modding will never be part of the skill. It's wrong that one configuration be better than the other, you should be using a ship for a purpose, and then using your skill to put that ship to good use.
Time spent in a ship equates to skill, as you always learn new things, and over time gain experience in that ship.
1.484 is an atempt to balance the game almost completly, and get rid of that "I have more torps than you so I win by default" feeling. Let me give you a scenario.
Two UGTO Torp Cruisers.
For instance lets give them some loadouts..
TC #1 = 9 CL's, 7 Torps.
TC #2 = 5 CL's, 4 Flux Beams, 7 Torps.
TC #1 does more damage than TC #2, but, TC #2 will do more systems damage than TC #2, therefor it should level out, as TC #2 will go into armour sooner than TC #1, but once TC #1 does, his systems will start to degrade.
See what I'm getting at here?
We're trying to give modding options to players, but not so that it breaks the game, or the setup of the ship. We need to give ships defined roles, and make them the best at that in their class. There's no point being able to modify a Missile Cruiser to work better than a Torp Cruiser.
- Jack
[ This Message was edited by: David Hasselhoff on 2006-10-16 07:01 ]
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