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Cloaking update... |
Faustus
Marshal
Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 2748
From: Austin, Texas
|  Posted: 2012-01-29 23:17
I've made some major changes to the cloaking device in beta that I would like feedback on..
* ECM/ECCM pinging no longer works. Once a ship is cloaked, it's cloaked.
* The cloak energy cost is now based on the amount of signature being masked.
* If the energy level of a cloaked ship reaches zero, then the device, drives, and reactors start taking damage. Obviously, a destroyed cloaking device doesn't hide your ship.
If you have time to jump in beta and check out the new cloaking system I would welcome your feedback.
-F
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-01-30 08:09
Quote:
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On 2012-01-30 04:01, chlorophyll wrote:
Jack is right in my case.
I tested the new cloak system. When I was in a dread/station, energy draining by cloak is even faster than defense mode. When you activate ECM, the draining speed is slower. Ironically, in Colony case, activating 3 gadgets (2 ECM & 1 cloak) drains less energy than activate 1 gadget (cloak). Generally, the more ECM surrounds you, the less energy you loss because of cloaking. And you can't maintain cloaking so long when you're in dread/station.
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I tested it out. Concur with Chlorophyll.
The drain is too high. Cloaked, sitting dead still and turning on your ECM will see your energy drop about 1 unit per second. Worse when you're moving. It can be up to 2 or 3 units per second on the move, depending on speed.
Cloak drain needs to be drastically reduced. Even halving it, the drain will still be too high to be useful. Even orbiting our own planets will drain energy at 1 unit per sec. Turning on ECM, reduces your sig, but also increases energy drain at the same time. So it cancels each other out in some way.
I tried attacking an AI cruiser. Simulated an attack on a human controlled ship. Jumped in at 1000 gus, and cloaked to get in range. By the time I'm in optimum all-weaps range at about 300GUs, my energy is down to 25% of full (entered at half speed), and I only had 1 alpha to give before I had to break off, otherwise I'd have no energy to cloak.
All i can say is either:
1. Massively reduce energy drain so that it becomes feasible on the move, or
2. Implement a separate cloak energy bar.
Sharing it with movement, ECM, and weapons fire (disruptors suck up a lot of power) means that there is no point at all in using cloak to approach your enemies. Your energy is already nearly out the moment you get into range.
Likewise, hit and run has also become a non option.
Eg. You jump in, start shooting, and then you don't have energy to even cloak to run. Add weak K'luth armor, and it becomes a pointless option.
Here's what I think. A good way to start would be no drain at all when the ship is dead still, with no external ECM/ECCM effects. In short, if the ship is sleeping in deep space, it should be able to remain cloaked indefinitely.
Once it moves, or gets into ECCM range, the drain should begin.
My opinion: Good idea in theory, but current execution effectively renders Kluth unplayable.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-01-30 08:21
OK edit:
I tried a few more ships.
I take back the post above. It seems to apply ONLY to the Siphon for some strange reason. (I haven't tried stations)
On the Mandible.... or cruisers, or dessies. Energy doesn't drain when I'm sitting still.
The drain is still a tad quick, but it is actually quite manageable.
Is there a bug on the Siphon?
Or is it because of the hull size or mass of the Siph that's affecting it's sig?
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Faustus
Marshal
Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 2748
From: Austin, Texas
| Posted: 2012-01-30 08:31
Quote:
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On 2012-01-30 08:21, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
OK edit:
I tried a few more ships.
I take back the post above. It seems to apply ONLY to the Siphon for some strange reason. (I haven't tried stations)
On the Mandible.... or cruisers, or dessies. Energy doesn't drain when I'm sitting still.
The drain is still a tad quick, but it is actually quite manageable.
Is there a bug on the Siphon?
Or is it because of the hull size or mass of the Siph that's affecting it's sig?
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More than likely, that ship doesn't have the same energy generation rate as the other ships... currently, the cloak uses energy based on the level o the ship as well, I may remove that as a factor tonight to see how it plays.
-F
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Xavier I. Agamemnon
Grand Admiral
Exathra Alliance Fleet
Joined: October 12, 2010
Posts: 357
From: Babylon5
| Posted: 2012-01-30 10:28
mmay i ask whats the point of the new ECCM ECM system now?
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-01-30 10:37
Quote:
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On 2012-01-30 10:28, Agamemnon (//:CO:\\) wrote:
mmay i ask whats the point of the new ECCM ECM system now?
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Focused ECM/ECCM:
Single target lock with enhanced signature bonus/penalty
Longwave ECM/ECCM:
Standard ECM/ECCM with increased AOE range at the cost of less signature bonus/penalty
Focused ECM/ECCM:
Single target lock with great range and signature bonus/penalty. Consums a larger amount of energy and has a higher cooldown
From what Doran described, to increase/decrease the energy cost of cloak usage itself by raising the base signature of the ship. Using a focused or longwave ECCM will either create greater energy havoc for Kluth at close range, or have less effect but within a larger area.
It also affects cloak / decloak time, if that hasn't been removed yet.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2012-01-30 10:50 ]
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-01-30 10:46
Quote:
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On 2012-01-30 08:31, Faustus wrote:
Quote:
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On 2012-01-30 08:21, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
OK edit:
I tried a few more ships.
I take back the post above. It seems to apply ONLY to the Siphon for some strange reason. (I haven't tried stations)
On the Mandible.... or cruisers, or dessies. Energy doesn't drain when I'm sitting still.
The drain is still a tad quick, but it is actually quite manageable.
Is there a bug on the Siphon?
Or is it because of the hull size or mass of the Siph that's affecting it's sig?
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More than likely, that ship doesn't have the same energy generation rate as the other ships... currently, the cloak uses energy based on the level o the ship as well, I may remove that as a factor tonight to see how it plays.
-F
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Yeah. I was on with Eledore earlier and he figured that one out pretty quick. The Siph only has a single reactor. Guess that one got by me. LOL.
If you're looking for a cloak counter, you may have to look beyond ECM/ECCM.
I suggest that EW specialized ships like the Interdictor or Sensor / Covert Ops Corvettes get additional anti-cloak measures like
- Anti cloak torps (which disrupts or drops Kluth cloak if it hits a Kluth vessel or catches one within its blast radius/AOE)
OR
- Add in a second type of beacon (switchable with the original) that doesn't raise the sig, but instead does what the anti cloak torp does.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2012-01-30 10:46 ]
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Faustus
Marshal
Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 2748
From: Austin, Texas
| Posted: 2012-01-30 16:36
I don't know about that Kenny.. Electronic Warfare is ECM, ECCM, and Cloak.. it's a triad that is easy for most people to understand and get how to play the game.
Start making cloak something different and having to counter the cloak differently just don't make much sense to me (perhaps I can be convinced otherwise).
-F
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-01-30 21:07
Hmm. The thing is that players are already used to having something that can break through the cloak. Pinging is currently it.
It's a bug turned feature, yes. But it can crack the cloak, even if just for a moment (actually a high ECCM environment coupled with pinging can break cloak for seconds at a time) and let them shoot at cloaked Kluth.
The new cloak eliminates that altogether in exchange for "burning through" cloaking by way of energy usage over time. Players still want something that can break through cloaking.
So now you've done it; cloak is now absolute. Just as you originally meant it to be. But it comes with a cost: energy usage.
What I think is, let it ride for now. There should be no other way to break cloak.
You can perhaps change focused and longwave ECM/ECCM to:
eg:
Focused: range of 200 GUs, raises/lowers sig by 10
Longwave: range of 500 GUs, raises/lowers sig by 3
It becomes a trade off of range vs power. So an attacking Kluth doesn't exactly know what type of ECCM his enemy is using. He can either play safe and keep at arm's length and use cannons, or risk it and close in for the full alpha.
Also, I would like to add that players can now choose to spam sensor bases on planets to defeat cloak, thereby making Kluth attacks on planets a near impossibility.
Can we limit planetary sensor bases, like Depots, to just one per planet?
If they want to make an ECCM fort, they can rely on their onboard ECCM or sensor plats. At least those are limited and have a cost attached to them.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2012-01-30 21:10 ]
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2012-01-30 23:10
One big plus is multiple sensor bases would get rid of SY camping.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-01-31 00:30
Quote:
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On 2012-01-30 23:10, Talien wrote:
One big plus is multiple sensor bases would get rid of SY camping.
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Use and abuse.
On one hand you stop SY camping. On the other hand, you can simply spam it and make an attack impossible.
Besides, these days, not much SY camping going on anymore. Or maybe it's cos there're not many players around.
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Forger of Destiny
Chief Marshal
We Kick Arse
Joined: October 10, 2009
Posts: 826
| Posted: 2012-01-31 05:29
raise cost of sensor and anti-sensor bases to 3000 resources, up from 250. limit them to a maximum of 1 or 2 each per planet, and increase energy usage from 10 to 20-25. also increase sensor strength by ~10-20%, and then possible cloak energy abuses would be very limited.
also, i think that if a kluth ship is sitting still for 20-30 seconds, then cloak device should drain only 1/2 ~ 2/3 of the required cloak energy. that way they can get in position, stay still and prepare for attack.
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Fatal Command (CO)
Chief Marshal
Fatal Squadron
Joined: November 27, 2002
Posts: 1159
From: Back in Texas and noticing some ppl are like canoes.....they need to be paddled.
| Posted: 2012-01-31 15:13
dumb question but...
way back when,if you closed in on a kluth ship cloaked (or vice versa) YOUR sig used to drop.that still occur?without ecm running that is.had to be like 50-100 GUs I think it was.
Also I remember background (starfield) used to have a shimmerlike effect,maybe make a certain sig do that instead of damaging drives/devices?let the cloak take it but not others.
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[ML]RogueAvengerTTV
Marshal
Joined: September 11, 2010
Posts: 300
From: England
| Posted: 2012-01-31 16:22
Yeh maybe not make it damage the engines but the generators and the cloak its self and when the cloak is under 50% make the ship "flicker" every 2-3 seconds like the cloak is effectively losing power/malfunctioning temporarily but on the whole it seems good although i am going to miss pining as that was a key counter measure the energy drain over time seems a little easy to abuse if your ugto or icc making fighting luth a no-cloak fight but i could be wrong however i would like to keep pinging as it is i like the idea of a "ping" to be a for of "Space Echo location" the sound echoing off the cloaked ships hull so to say.
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2012-01-31 18:59
erm... beam sweeping will still work...
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