| Author |
Selective change. PLEASE READ |
Jhomes
Chief Marshal
Joined: June 22, 2013
Posts: 92
|  Posted: 2014-06-23 16:02
Its clear that somthing must be done to change DS current situation. Ugto is gone for the apparent reason of ICC being op. As hard as it is to write that without cracking up laughing, somthing indeed must change.
1. Missiles
As many of you have said DS has recently become missile space. ALL factions missiles need to be nerfed badly, damage needs to be cut in half and recharge times should vary from faction to faction instead of the standard dred 11 sec 33 sec recharge times. ALL faction skirmish missiles need to be made to fire as the kluth missiles fire, which is straight out instead of the arc. Ugto and ICC skirmish missiles never ever even once will hit a target at minimum arming range, firing striaght out will easily fix this making skirmish missiles work the way intended (close range). I honestly do not understand what is OP about icc missiles since the damage is lower than ugto ones and much lower than luth missiles. The kluth ganglia with shock missiles equipped kills an icc heavy cruiser in 1 single round of fire due to the insane damage of current missiles and the fact that kluth skirmish missiles do not have the same problem of missing at minimum arming range. That is completley ridiculous, no ship dred or station should be able to kill any cruiser in a single shot, surely no other dreadnought ugto nor icc has such an outragous ability. That said i would like to show how i think missiles should be.
ALL factions- all skirmish missiles now fire straight out, equal range for both types, equal minimum arming ranges. Equal missile signature for PD detection.
Kluth- should remain by far highest damage, however like all kluth weapons should be balanced out with longer recharge time and high energy use.
Ugto- slightly less damage than kluth missiles, emp missiles scrapped and instead all ugto missiles have emp effect. Meduim recharge time and energy use.
ICC- slightly less damage than ugto, fastest recharge time and low energy use.
very easy fix, I 100% belive this will fix missile OP issues across the board, and allow no one faction from dominating in an otherwise even missile fight.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. Torps, Norps, rockets and all.
ALL factions- All standard torpedoes are now semihoming (remember the old 1.6 MI cannons, just like that.) (also excludes SABOT rockets). The large capital torps now travel at same speed of standard torps.
3. Cannons.
Ugto- Accelerated particle cannon- same exact minimum and maximum damage of standard particle cannon and same weapon falloff % but fires 3 projectiles which travel at faster speed than the standard particle cannon (gauss gun speed), has 1400 range and 2 or 3 seconds added to recharge times. This will allow ugto to have better way to deal with small dangerous ships that easily evade the standard particle cannons.
Kluth- Plasma Cannon- as has been said before this cannon actually does x4 of the damage stated in weapon stats and is already being adjusted for stats to be correct i think. This cannon is unique in that it does pure area damage. However the AoE is so small its pointless. Very large increase of AoE on this gun may make a huge difference in this seldom used weapon.
ICC- valance cannon- needs infinite ammo, but thats already happening anyways. Problem with them is here tho, if you use a small ship such as a frigate. the stock recharge time will be very low for val cannon. if you add weapon condesnsers to further lower this, the cannon will still be firing when its already recharged and ready to fire next round. This gets a little screwy and changing val cannons to less projectiles would easily fix.
4. Aux fusion reactors (sorry icc i know you will not like this)
ICC extractor transport ship has a unique mounted aux reactor in that its fore,left,right,aft. if you switch this out for aux shields its quite interesting. its makes a single shield that surrounds entire ship much like the armor that is mounted fore,left,right,aft. this shield is also unique in that you cannot transfer power into it from other shields. I propose all aux reactors should now be mounted fore,left,right,aft. This will greatly reduce any rumor of ICC shields being OP due to aux shield advantage.
Now the part you will really hate ICC, i propose UGTO should also be able to switch their aux fusion reactors for this type of shield as well. Would allow ugto to capture enemy planets easier by the generic aux shield regen preventing major damage to their much needed armor.
Also if you have ever noticed, the shields the pirate ships have are the same exact fore,left,right,aft design.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please consider minor changes like this instead of some massive nerfing of the wrong things which i am afraid may be impending. Now i honestly do not understand why the ugto have given up and quit in some sort of strange uncalled for protest but getting our Ugto friends back on this game is number one priority, but second priorty is not upsetting anyone else or tipping the balance in an unfair way.
So come on Devs we all want the same thing here. A better DS for all and no one faction or player to feel they are at a disadvantage in any of the basic game mechanics. If any former UGTO read this my goal is to get your opinion on what i have proposed for DS and if it addresses any of the things that caused you to leave.
Thank you if you read this far.
Jason (Jhomes)
_________________
|
Chewy Squirrel
Chief Marshal
Joined: January 27, 2003
Posts: 304
From: NYC
| Posted: 2014-06-23 18:52
Quote:
On 2014-06-23 16:02, The ICS Jhomes wrote:
Its clear that somthing must be done to change DS current situation. Ugto is gone for the apparent reason of ICC being op. As hard as it is to write that without cracking up laughing, somthing indeed must change.
1. Missiles
.....
|
I agree, missiles are the main problem, and the main reason people stop playing.
As far as I can tell, the problem with ICC is not that it is OP, it is that ICC missile ships are so much better than any other ICC ships because missiles right now are super OP for all 3 factions. And so naturally this leads the ICC to predominantly use line dreads and line stations, and these two ships have the potential of completely sucking any fun out of a battle. Right now the most common situation is that luth/UGTO vs ICC are having a nice battle, then ICC pulls out 2 line stations, a line dread, and maybe a combat dread, sits at a planet, and voila the battle is over due to the ridiculous damage dread and station grade missiles deal. A salvo of station grade missiles will take down an entire arc and 20% hull of a luth dread, and pretty much instagib a destroyer. And yes station grade missiles can even hit an attentive luth destroyer pilot. This combined with luth not having too many effective counters vs line stations(due to line station torps outranging most luth weapons, and the removal of perma-cloak) leads to the game becoming instantly boring. And boring is bad. Worst case scenario is that we have a situation where no luth want to attack, and so things get boring and people quit. Best case scenario, is someone grabs an engineer, speed builds thorn plats and we counter with our own missile/fighter ships and stations. This leads to the most boring battle imaginable where both sides spacebar each other with very little results. Or very rarely, if we have number superiority we can rush the station with beam/torp dreads (someone is going to die) or perform a coordinated mine attack and hope the station doesn’t jump us or have a line dread supporting it. And of course if you hit and run and let up the attack for more than 30 seconds the out of combat timer completely regenerates all the damage you dealt.
I don’t blame the ICC, most of their ships underperform while their missile ships vastly overperform. I certainly spent a lot of time in missile ships during my time on ICC as well. This is a deeper problem than we are discussing here.
I play very very little UGTO but I figure they have a similar problem with attacking ICC that turtle in with line ships.
This is not one sided of course, luth ganglia’s are incredibly powerful as well. They have fast, extremely powerful, pretty much guaranteed to hit missiles which easily take out opposing dreads. And then they have cannons to take out any smaller ships. A phenomenal combination which makes them a very commonly used luth ship and probably encourages the ICC to pull out their own missile ships (like the fun sucking line station).
So what needs to be done? I wouldn’t shed any tears if missiles are completely removed from the game, but since that probably isn’t going to happen, station/dread missiles need to have their damage dramatically reduced. Like to 1/4 of what it currently is. Or standard beams need to be allowed to PD again so you can have an assault dread tank the missiles. Or ugto/luth need to get a much much better PD ship than the ones they currently have. Or battle stations need to lose their missiles OR their torpedoes. Missiles let you do completely absurd amounts of damage with very little risk making the risk/reward ratio of their use lopsided. Compare them to norps which have very high damage, but also very high risk with their short range, low accuracy and huge splash. Missilespace is ruining darkspace.
[ This Message was edited by: Chewy Squirrel on 2014-06-24 00:34 ]
_________________
|
Forger of Destiny
Chief Marshal
We Kick Arse
Joined: October 10, 2009
Posts: 826
| Posted: 2014-06-24 00:11
i kind of left because a certain someone loved to fly a pair of line stations with their buddy. a secondary reason was that i got disconnected while fighting one in an EAD, but that doesnt count here.
yeah, missiles hurt and all that..
no, i dont see that nerfing missiles will be enough.
i'd want to have missile damage reduced a bit (10~20%) in return for having more ammo (10~20%), greater range for smaller missile ships (frigate missiles go out only upto 1.5kgu or so) and a bit longer cooldown for the smaller ships.
missiles dealt with, i want to see combat stations have more varying weaponry.
atm, all combat stations have beams, torpedoes and missiles. of these, missiles are most used, and beams rarely. my idea is that these stations lose some weaponry in favour of getting some other kinds of weaponry.
kluth nest could lose a couple of missiles and get some siege torpedoes and either of mine launchers or 2 PD fighters
ICC LS can lose half of its torpedoes and have siege torpedoes and either of heavy railguns (4-ish) or 1-2 ion cannons.
UGTO BS can lose couple each of missiles and beams, and receive siege torpedoes and either of flux torpedoes or PD beams.
them siege torpedoes do some very nice damage on the dread level, but it would be nice to have some station-level siege torps too (ones that would travel at atleast 7 gu/s instead of 3.5)
plus, so that a station of war can refit to scare some planets too.
_________________
Forging legends and lives outside till naught remains inside.
|
Code Red
Chief Marshal
Non Omnis Moriar
Joined: September 08, 2007
Posts: 184
| Posted: 2014-06-24 11:00
I will add my thoughts to the above as they are differing , it is not as much any OP'ness of a faction but the actions of the players within it , as mentioned before when a faction has numbers and regularly decides to pull LS , Line Dreads and pew pew from safe range vs a smaller opposing faction then are people really suprised when the opposition says "adios" as the fights are no longer fun , and there are so many other games to choose from !!!
A lot of the problems within DS are player number and attitude related rather than a problem needing the nerf bat , a good example is players joining the side with greater numbers rather than help the other faction and as mentioned previously choosing stats/dreads and sitting safely rather than getting close up and having a good battle.
I personally keep an eye on the game but wont be returning while weak minded players flock together like sheep and choose ships they know will kill the fun for the opposition.
Take care all , peace out !!!!
_________________
Code Red, For winning in the 1RA Fleet Wars event, here's your coupon for a week.
|
Jhomes
Chief Marshal
Joined: June 22, 2013
Posts: 92
| Posted: 2014-06-24 22:55
Good getting people talking and voicing opinions on what to do is first step for better DS.
Great post chewy, but getting rid of missiles alltogether lol wld be bit much, but cutting damage by half would work well. Currently dread level icc harpex is
damage 7920-13200
area- 7920-13200 , that ends up being exactly twice the damage of a dread level heavy gauss gun, so a line dread hitting with all 10 side fire heavy gauss and all 8 harpex would be like being hit by 26 heavy gauss guns at a time! Chewy said it best that ICC missile ships over perform and others underperform and that is exactly right. Cutting missile damage in half would make the line dreads damage similar to a combat dread but with added bonus of missile range but weaker in close range combat which is what it was supposed to be anyway.
As for Nest,Battle station, and line station i would honestly love to see their beams and torps gone. and in place of torps give each one 2 or 4 capital cannons to each one for limited long/meduim range fire, and mine slots! Maybe 6 or 8 mine slots per station. mines and stations would go together great imo. What u guys think of that?
_________________
|
Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2014-06-25 10:29
PD ships or Carriers with Interceptors to help shoot them down? ECM to make yourselves untargetable to begin with? Just a couple thoughts.
_________________
Adapt or die.
|
Bardiche
Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247
| Posted: 2014-06-25 11:34
Quote:
This will allow ugto to have better way to deal with small dangerous ships that easily evade the standard particle cannons.
|
I'm pretty sure the design philosophy is that you're intended to bring small ships to counter small ships. You're not meant to reign supreme in your dreadnought.
On the subject of DarkSpace not being fun, that's mostly because the game has a heavy emphasis on numbers, and no balancing factor to prevent the skewing of numbers. The developers intend to implement something that encourages joining the weaker side, but I'm sceptical.
[ This Message was edited by: Bardiche on 2014-06-25 11:40 ]
_________________
|
*Neon*
Chief Marshal
Joined: February 02, 2010
Posts: 75
| Posted: 2014-06-26 14:34
Quote:
On 2014-06-25 10:29, Talien wrote:
PD ships or Carriers with Interceptors to help shoot them down? ECM to make yourselves untargetable to begin with? Just a couple thoughts.
|
OH WOW! How did we not think of that before?! That fixes all that is wrong with the entire game. All the vets will come flooding back now. Absent fleet members and old enemies we havent seen in ages! Come back all we can fly pd or little underpowered ewar ships! Exciting stuff. Can't wait for all that yummy prezs
[ This Message was edited by: *Neon* on 2014-06-26 14:39 ]
_________________
|
Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2014-06-26 19:44
Quote:
On 2014-06-26 14:34, *Neon* wrote:
OH WOW! How did we not think of that before?! That fixes all that is wrong with the entire game. All the vets will come flooding back now. Absent fleet members and old enemies we havent seen in ages! Come back all we can fly pd or little underpowered ewar ships! Exciting stuff. Can't wait for all that yummy prezs
[ This Message was edited by: *Neon* on 2014-06-26 14:39 ]
|
Seriously, all the dumbing down that people complain about has been done for this very reason, nobody is willing to give up fast pres in exchange for filling a vital role in a team. It's often like pulling teeth to even get someone to build or repair a planet that's just been bombed because it's not as much pres as combat. People complain that there's nothing to do then we get more stuff to do and the same people complain because some of the new stuff doesn't rake in the ph4t pr3$tig3 as quickly as combat does.
Then again maybe it's just me because I actually enjoy things like PD and EW. It's fun frustrating the other team by making what they're doing mostly ineffective and can easily cause them to make mistakes. One person in a PD Destroyer can counter most, if not all, of a MD or LS missile volley. Did you ever stop to think that maybe when their missiles are getting shot down that they might switch to different ships?
_________________
Adapt or die.
|
Bardiche
Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247
| Posted: 2014-06-26 19:49
Quote:
On 2014-06-26 19:44, Talien wrote:
Did you ever stop to think that maybe when their missiles are getting shot down that they might switch to different ships?
|
It is my experience that this is not the common response.
_________________
|
Chewy Squirrel
Chief Marshal
Joined: January 27, 2003
Posts: 304
From: NYC
| Posted: 2014-06-26 20:17
Um... ok. So your PD destoryer neutralizes the missiles from a single enemy missile ship. Even less than a single enemy missile ship if you equip long range pd beams to better cover the friendly fleet. And then what? The missiles from all the other missile ships still get through and absolutely decimate both you in the pd ship, and the rest of your fleet. So what do you do? Do all of you switch into PD ships? How do you deal damage in that case?
The whole "Use ECM/PD ships!!!" argument is incredibly out of touch with the current game situation. Let's say we have a 3v3 battle, as is very common these days. Let's say it is 3 ICC vs 3 Luth as is also very common these days. ICC pull out 2 line stations and a line dread, as is very common these days. So what can luth reasonably do? Lets say we pull out our PD destroyer, which only has 7 PD beams if I recall correctly. Make these long range PD beams so that they can actually help cover friendly ships and you have 7 missiles you can take out every 20 seconds. So every 20 seconds you can help your faction by PDing 7 out of 28 enemy missiles. Add in the 4 dread PD beams and oh crap, thats still only 11 out of 28 missiles. All of you are still going to die a horrible and quick death.
All right, replace that 1 pd destroyer with a ecm scout. Well crap, dreads are always visible at over 1000gu when moving at full speed. Even more with a scanner, which stations have. And you need dreads if you want to damage a station. And if you slow down too much manually targeted missiles will still kill you pretty hard.
And that's not even counting offense. What can Luth do to deal damage? With 2 offensive dreads, there is not a whole lot you can do vs 2 line stations and a line dread. Sure we can try to get within 1000gu of the line stations and above 750gu. That leaves a very narrow safe range and if the line stations even stagger a little bit you are still going to get hit by missiles from the other one. Not to mention the line dread. Another problem is that very few luth weapons hit over 750 gu. And this isn't even trying to deal with a planetary dico or planetary defences.
There is simply no way to survive a 3v3 if the opposing side stacks missile ships due to the sheer damage missiles deal and the minimal PD left in the game. Nobody likes playing a game where 3 salvos of missiles can destroy you before you even have a chance to react, and when you have no effective counter.
Sure we can also pull nests and ganglias and speed build thorn plats. But who the hell wants to play like that. Removing either missiles or torpedoes off of battle stations would go a loooooong way to resolving this issue.
Or make PD ships incredible. Make them have a special kind of PD beam that is both rapid fire and long range. Then they would actually be worth something.
(Please don't think I am saying ICC is op or blaming ICC, if the situation was flipped with 2 nests and a ganglia, things would be very similar. ICC would be slightly better off with longer ranged weapons, better PD, and faster turn rates, however. But also maybe a bit worse off since ganglia missiles fire straight.)
Quote:
On 2014-06-26 14:34, *Neon* wrote:
OH WOW! How did we not think of that before?! That fixes all that is wrong with the entire game. All the vets will come flooding back now. Absent fleet members and old enemies we havent seen in ages! Come back all we can fly pd or little underpowered ewar ships! Exciting stuff. Can't wait for all that yummy prezs
|
Haha Neon.... this is perfect.
[ This Message was edited by: Chewy Squirrel on 2014-06-26 21:24 ]
_________________
|
Bardiche
Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247
| Posted: 2014-06-26 20:52
As Chewy illustrates, and what I want to stress: this game has a numbers problem.
I accept the following as true:
- The counter to missiles are PD ships and/or EWAR.
- In an ideally balanced encounter, both groups have an equal number of ships.
- In an ideally balanced encounter, both sides will be equally strong.
- Point-defence and E-war do not yield prestige rewards.
If any of the above is untrue, of course, my entire argument becomes void.
Now the point with the argument,
If the enemies are fielding missile ships, retort with PD ships and/or EWAR, is that it requests a flawed tactic to respond with to a superior tactic. Consider the following.
Prestige gain is directly related to the amount of damage you do, or in the case of grouping, your group. Point-defence actions and E-war actions do not contribute directly to the acquisition of prestige. They passively contribute to it by supporting the fleet, but the action itself gives no reward from the system.
The purpose of all actions in this game is to accrue prestige. Therefore, the argument requests that you perform actions counter to the goal of accruing prestige. Hold on before you retort.
"But Bardiche," you shout, "fielding e-war lets you counter the enemy and gain prestige through long-range combat."
I accept that as true. Sufficient amounts of e-war and dedication will allow you to retaliate in such a manner that you can acquire prestige. However, I counter as such:
I propose that it is not fun to make combat primarily reliant on hitting the spacebar. A long-range fight requires no dodging or otherwise activity bordering on the intellectual, so I'm going to rudely say that long-range combat requires nothing more than a spacebar and a willing thumb.
As a third point, I will say that given the circumstances of An Ideal Balanced Encounter, you will have an equal number of ships. The first side that fields primarily missile ships is the last side that needs to reduce its number of combat ships to field support ships, I claim. It'll take your opponents time to come up with an appropriate response, and only after that will you have to swap your own ships to respond to them. However, you will already have acquired the advantage in prestige gain due to it taking time for your enemies to be on to your ploy and responding.
In an Ideally Balanced Encounter, therefore, the first side to adopt a missile strategy is the side that will have more combat ships available to them, as they only need to respond to counter-measures.
Therefore, the argument asks of you three things:
1) Fly a ship that can not contribute to the goal of accruing prestige directly.
2) Fly a ship that encourages a long-range combat style.
3) Handicap yourself by removing at least one combat ship from the equation to fly support.
"But wait, Bard!" you protest. "It's still a valid strategy to jump in close with missile ships."
I pshaw at you; if you jump in close, the missile ships can jump out, and you will be helpless before their onslaught and likely in an unfavourable position. The argument, "use smaller ships" falls flat when you must consider that smaller ships demand superior numbers to meet head-on a superior force; therefore, you would demand Less-Than-Ideal Combat conditions. I would also hazard that jumping in with 24 Dreadnoughts against 12 is still a net advantage, especially if you stagger the jumps.
I conclude, then, that under Ideal Combat Situations, it is a flawed strategy to respond with smaller ships to a superior threat, as you will be hurting your ability to accrue prestige, you will be promoting a gameplay style that is directly averse to fun and you are harming your team's firepower.
tl;dr
actually using pd/ewar against missiles sucks because long-range combat sucks and most people play this to do damage, not to hang around and watch the pretty battle go on
_________________
|
Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2014-06-26 22:03
Of course it's not going to be a good idea when you're outnumbered, in that case the only reasonable solution is to either log out or continue to slam your head against the proverbial brick wall.
The alternative to actual PD ships is a Carrier with Interceptors, send them midway between you and them and watch. Yes there is no "perfect" solution, but as others have pointed out it's mostly because of small player numbers.
As far as PD and EW giving prestige? Everyone should know I've been a big proponent of that since it would actually give people more incentive to do those roles. I really wish this were the case.
Another thought is what if missiles were returned to the horribad accuracy they previously had? Personally I think a big part of the problem now is they're just too accurate, even Station missiles are too easy to hit with. Lowering missile speed could also help, giving more time to PD them.
_________________
Adapt or die.
|
Forger of Destiny
Chief Marshal
We Kick Arse
Joined: October 10, 2009
Posts: 826
| Posted: 2014-06-27 01:56
personally, i am in disagreement with how a tier 2 ship can retain most of the missiles of a tier 1, while also having most of the cannons of a tier 1 cannon ship.
IMO, wherever a missile role is crossed with another combat role, the ship should have even lesser missiles than they currently have.
theres not much difference between 8 missiles and 10 when your opponent either gets forced into close combat with your other weapons, or tries to get another ship and wastes time.
and i agree with Bardiche, shipyards have become too essential in combat now. earlier, you could have a group of ships and be fairly sure that you'd be able to respond to multiple situations reasonably. now, you just have to face the other way while your incompetent ships get pummeled by superior roles and inferior tactics.
i guess i miss the versatility of the older ships.
_________________
Forging legends and lives outside till naught remains inside.
|
Jhomes
Chief Marshal
Joined: June 22, 2013
Posts: 92
| Posted: 2014-06-27 06:48
Ok first off, telling ppl to just use PD ships to counter missiles is ridiculous, and only shows how little understanding of current DS you have. For example the short range PD beams which lets face it are the only ones that are really going to protect you agaisnt barrages of missile fire have such a short range that missiles often still deal area damage when shot down. This is esp bad with the kluth short range PD as the range is only 100 gu. Also people who use missiles are not stupid, they put each missile on a seperate key to stagger the missile fire, this technique will waste the players PD beams on the first few and the rest get in, this is esp true with the newer skirmish missiles. So please people do not talk to us like we are brainless children as we know this game well and know what works and what does not.
Ok with that out of the way, i agree with destiny here. Single role ships becoming obsolete is somthing that has bothered me since 1.7 came out. A ship such as icc patrol destroyer despite its description is borderline useless agaisnt a target of any size with its at the best 4 heavy gun fire. Same goes for ugto variant gunboat destroyer. Once you unlock the combat destroyer (icc) or the battle destroyer (ugto) you will find nearly the same cannon firepower but with 6 or more torps firing with them as well. Their is even an ugto destroyer with bombs and 6 heavy guns, and even though it can only fire 4 heavy guns at any one it still comes with more cannons than its single role cousin?? I understand its supposed to be balanced out with single role ships having a bit more armor and all but what good does armor do if your weapons are useless.
This is esp true with the light cruiser(icc) and the interceptor cruiser (ugto), both of these ships are heavily armored tier 1 cannon ships. In the description it says these ships are for combating smaller targets and with 6 heavy guns firing at any one time they work ok for this role. The problem is that lowlevel/new players unlock this ship before any others and MUST use it agaisnt watever opposition they may face. Currenty these ships come with 6 heavy guns that can all fire at once in one arc or another.
I propose dropping ALL 6 heavy guns from these ships, and in place give each ship 10 standard guns (for variety purposes) and 1 single positron/ion cannon.
So what is your point here Jhomes. Point is there shouldnt be so much difference in damage/firepower between a tier 1 ship with 1 type of weapon system and a tier 2 with 2 types of weapon systems.They should only be slightly more powerful and able to attack in different ways with only slightly more damage than tier 1 combat ships. However this rule doesnt apply to tier 3 superships because they are just that, a supership.
Sorry for rambling on and on, thanks for reading.
Jhomes
_________________
|
|
English
Deutsch
Nederlands
)
