| Author |
Planetary Torp |
DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
|  Posted: 2014-11-14 08:57
Today, I have expierenced with them. There are 2 issues:
Inaccuracy. When a bomber is moving, torps usually missed the stationery target.
But the worst is, its minimum and maximum range.
Planetary torp has so long minimum range. It's not good since torp is meant to be used at close range. ICC minimum is 600, UGTO minimum is 400. Why does it take such a long aiming range? It's inefficient because when the ship does not have scanner (bomber transport), it must bomb torp at close range when it detects the structure but unfortuantely it can't.
Planetary torp also has so long maximum range along with huge AOE. This is chance to exploit. ICC max is 1200. Technically, hide under ecm and spam planetary torp. The AOE from 24% projectile power clavate easily kills an ICC destroyer in 1 hit. 2 salvo from the same clavate kill ICC dread. I don't expect bomber cruiser to snipe this way but it happened. Some players really get angry at this tactics employment.
Few suggestions: faster cooldown & lower damage, shorter minimum & shorter maximum range.
It would be best if neutral bomb is replaced with bio long range beam. There is almost no reason to use neutral bomb nowaday. It's essential to have a beam that kills population and infantry (without hurting ship) in order to overcome platform fortification. Bio beam is the best tool to kill infantry (moving or floating high) IMHO.
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pawnerz
Chief Marshal
Joined: September 03, 2010
Posts: 50
From: Somewhere Somehow
| Posted: 2014-11-14 09:27
Torp is fine, don't touch 
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Yet another forum thread by me about planets and AI >:D
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Incinarator
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 24, 2010
Posts: 237
| Posted: 2014-11-14 10:45
Quote:
On 2014-11-14 08:57, DiepLuc wrote:
Planetary torp has so long minimum range. It's not good since torp is meant to be used at close range. ICC minimum is 600, UGTO minimum is 400. Why does it take such a long aiming range? It's inefficient because when the ship does not have scanner (bomber transport), it must bomb torp at close range when it detects the structure but unfortuantely it can't.
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Siege torps were never designed to be used against planets, so judging them based on that is meaningless.
Quote:
On 2014-11-14 08:57, DiepLuc wrote:
Today, I have expierenced with them. There are 2 issues:
Inaccuracy. When a bomber is moving, torps usually missed the stationery target.
But the worst is, its minimum and maximum range.
Planetary torp also has so long maximum range along with huge AOE. This is chance to exploit. ICC max is 1200. Technically, hide under ecm and spam planetary torp. The AOE from 24% projectile power clavate easily kills an ICC destroyer in 1 hit. 2 salvo from the same clavate kill ICC dread. I don't expect bomber cruiser to snipe this way but it happened. Some players really get angry at this tactics employment.
Few suggestions: faster cooldown & lower damage, shorter minimum & shorter maximum range.
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Siege torps are designed for killing platforms. In this respect them missing stationary targets would be extremely unhelpful. However, I can't imagine how they would miss as they use the same guiding logic as projectiles. The only thing I can think of is that you are again referring to planet structures. See my previous explanation.
The range was specifically tailored the way it is. The expected tactic to avoid siege torps is to move out of the way. For that reason, having them follow the usual close range nature of torpedoes would be too overpowered while simultaneously also killing your own ship. It would just be a mess. A large minimum range mitigates this problem by allowing targeted ships plenty of time to move while also not allowing you to launch in such a way as to deny them that time.
Yes, siege torp alpha is exceedingly high. An inattentive pilot in a small ship could be quickly killed before they realize what's going on. However, the same can be said of most any weapon system. If players are taken advantage of this way they have simply been outplayed. Furthermore, it's hardly impossible to backtrace the projectiles to find the launching ship.
Quote:
On 2014-11-14 08:57, DiepLuc wrote:
It would be best if neutral bomb is replaced with bio long range beam. There is almost no reason to use neutral bomb nowaday. It's essential to have a beam that kills population and infantry (without hurting ship) in order to overcome platform fortification. Bio beam is the best tool to kill infantry (moving or floating high) IMHO.
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This is a bit off topic, but I like your idea. Having a beam type weapon against planets would be difficult to balance, however, I believe the pros would beat out the cons. Cool idea.
[ This Message was edited by: Incinarator on 2014-11-14 10:49 ]
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2014-11-15 07:24
Quote:
On 2014-11-14 10:45, Incinarator wrote:
Siege torps were never designed to be used against planets, so judging them based on that is meaningless.
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That's what I'm pointing at.
Siege torp is an alternative weapon of bomb, its main object ought to be planet, not ship. To destroy the platforms around the planet is the role of cannon, torp class.
Before trying siege torp, I had thought it would be normal torp that is used to damage structure. When I used them together with others, we all agreed that siege torp has been broken for various reasons:
- Siege torp damage number tells it's heavy core weapon type. Now from scout to cruiser can carry dread & station weapon. Errr... no. Bombers usually have some ECM, they're very deadly.
- The long cooldown and high damage of sieg torp is equal to normal cooldown and low damage of siege missle. The problem with using this outside of dico range is bomber does not see the structure so both torp & missle will mainly hit the center diamond to kill population. In this cause, Siege torp max range is near siege missle range and it's non-pd and extreme destruction. Too good.
- The bomber role has something that can instant kill. What role do you call an all siege-torp-setup ship is: Bomber or Torp role?
- We need bomber to kill planet, not ship or platform. Siege torp, however, does not help small ship to bomb planet due to its long cooldown.
Again, siege torp should just be normal torp that able to damage structure. That's all. No horrific damage; no tremendous AOE; no minimum range.
If there is anything I would ask, is that bombing weapon (mirv, siege missle, siege torp and maybe siege beam?) would also deal the same damage to ship. Hence, jumping a dread to shield the planet from a line of bomb wave must hurt a bit.
Quote:
On 2014-11-14 10:45, Incinarator wrote:
Having a beam type weapon against planets would be difficult to balance, however, I believe the pros would beat out the cons. Cool idea.
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Thanks for supporting.
I think we should have all kinds of planetary weapon: missle, cannon, torp, fighter, beam... for various tactics and situations.
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2014-11-15 09:14
Quote:
On 2014-11-15 07:24, DiepLuc wrote:
That's what I'm pointing at.
Siege torp is an alternative weapon of bomb, its main object ought to be planet, not ship. To destroy the platforms around the planet is the role of cannon, torp class.
Before trying siege torp, I had thought it would be normal torp that is used to damage structure. When I used them together with others, we all agreed that siege torp has been broken for various reasons:
- Siege torp damage number tells it's heavy core weapon type. Now from scout to cruiser can carry dread & station weapon. Errr... no. Bombers usually have some ECM, they're very deadly.
- The long cooldown and high damage of sieg torp is equal to normal cooldown and low damage of siege missle. The problem with using this outside of dico range is bomber does not see the structure so both torp & missle will mainly hit the center diamond to kill population. In this cause, Siege torp max range is near siege missle range and it's non-pd and extreme destruction. Too good.
- The bomber role has something that can instant kill. What role do you call an all siege-torp-setup ship is: Bomber or Torp role?
- We need bomber to kill planet, not ship or platform. Siege torp, however, does not help small ship to bomb planet due to its long cooldown.
Again, siege torp should just be normal torp that able to damage structure. That's all. No horrific damage; no tremendous AOE; no minimum range.
If there is anything I would ask, is that bombing weapon (mirv, siege missle, siege torp and maybe siege beam?) would also deal the same damage to ship. Hence, jumping a dread to shield the planet from a line of bomb wave must hurt a bit.
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You're thinking about the role of bombers too narrowly, too literally.
They already have plenty of weapons to damage the surface of a planet, but those are all useless if the planet has defenders nearby to shoot down their bombs and missiles--especially a large number of stations and platforms.
Siege Torps are meant to clear away the crunchy defenses so the bombers can reach the chewy planet center. They're not supposed to be used against planets, they're supposed to be used against planet-camps.
Otherwise, a Bomber is something only brought out after all the defending ships and structures have already been destroyed or chased off, like a lonely janitor sweeping up after the party's over.
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2014-11-15 10:59
Quote:
On 2014-11-15 09:14, Jim Starluck wrote:
You're thinking about the role of bombers too narrowly, too literally.
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And practically.
Quote:
On 2014-11-15 09:14, Jim Starluck wrote:
Siege Torps are meant to clear away the crunchy defenses so the bombers can reach the chewy planet center. They're not supposed to be used against planets, they're supposed to be used against planet-camps.
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If the bomber was among a group with combat, then there is no need to clear the camper - the combatants may do the job. Just bomb the planet dico & other stuff quickly. In this case, the bomber will approach closely to the planet and destroy structure as fast as possible. That's why I ask for normal planetary torp - non-PDed, high damage, small AoE, quick cooldown.
If the bomber was solo, then there is NO need to clear the camper neither. The camper will actively hunt the bomber, and how to attack with siege torp in this case? Result is no bombing at all.
I figure out campers here are platforms. Hence the strategy would be staying out the dico, launch the siege torp, jump to the next location and repeat the progress. Right? Even if the siege torp manages to clear all the obstacles around the planet in this easy case, then the bomber HAS to get back to the metal planet to switch siege torp to mirv. If the soloist has to go 2 times like that, why does he not pick the cannon/missle role at the first approach for faster attack and plexible when resistance occur? There is no one to stop him throughout the progress.
Quote:
On 2014-11-15 09:14, Jim Starluck wrote:
Otherwise, a Bomber is something only brought out after all the defending ships and structures have already been destroyed or chased off, like a lonely janitor sweeping up after the party's over.
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The reason the bomber has to bomb after party because mirv and siege missle are PD-ed. If you give us a planetary torp just function like normal torp, then yes we would join the battle right the moment teammates disturb the defenders. Bio long beam is also great tool during invasion.
I myself joined a team as siege dreadnaught with 6 siege torps. It did not well because some AI flew quite inside aiming range thus the torp exploded at 0 damage. Nevertheless, there were many platforms randomly built around the planet so it must have had taken lots of time to destroy them just by the siege torp.
I would say this directly, since siege torps are not supposed to be used against planets, they're supposed to be used against planet-[i]camps, then bombing is something only happen out after all the defending ships and structures have already been destroyed or chased off. Siege torp destroys then mirv bombs later. In a nut shell, siege torp does not change the facts.
I don't argue about the siege torp usage. I'm saying that we need correct tools and siege torp does not fit the task.
Pawn and other luth have found the other use of siege torp and made use of it marvelously. It does not mean siege torp is used at wrong intention. It's just better at other purpose.
[ This Message was edited by: DiepLuc on 2014-11-15 11:10 ]
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Incinarator
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 24, 2010
Posts: 237
| Posted: 2014-11-15 18:44
Bombers have enough bombs that only carrying two slots of bombs is enough to clear a whole planet. If you're loaded out like that you can have the rest be siege torps: you can kill the defense (platforms) AND the planet in one go. No refits or restocks are necessary.
In the combat scenario having a bomber with stupidly huge AoE and alpha weapons would certainly be more useful, don't you think? Platforms are notoriously difficult to remove normally, but siege torps make it much easier.
As for making siege torps into bomb weapons... just no. Your beam idea was cool, so if you want a non-PDable way to attack then stick with that. Having an un-PDable torpedo that deals structure damage would be stupidly overpowered. A beam that slowly removes pop or resources would be the only viable option for a 'non bomb' variant.
Just because siege torps swap with bombs does not mean they should also be bombs.
[ This Message was edited by: Incinarator on 2014-11-15 20:07 ]
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2014-11-16 09:51
Quote:
On 2014-11-15 18:44, Incinarator wrote:
Just because siege torps swap with bombs does not mean they should also be bombs.
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All swapable gadgets must serve same purpose. The purpose of bomb category is to damage planetary structure. Siege torp falls out of that.
When the role introduced, I thought the role was clear and simple. Bomber role is to damage planet. Torp role is to damage ship. The only reason that bomber does the job after the combat is bright like the day: there is no way to bomb a planet when there are many point defenses around. Fix that.
Is there anyone here actually use siege torp on cruiser/dread with bombing intension?
Quote:
On 2014-11-15 18:44, Incinarator wrote:
Having an un-PDable torpedo that deals structure damage would be stupidly overpowered.
In the combat scenario having a bomber with stupidly huge AoE and alpha weapons would certainly be more useful, don't you think
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I think these 2 sentences sound contradictory.
Quote:
On 2014-11-15 18:44, Incinarator wrote:
Platforms are notoriously difficult to remove normally
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Tracking beam.
Quote:
On 2014-11-15 18:44, Incinarator wrote:
Bombers have enough bombs that only carrying two slots of bombs is enough to clear a whole planet. If you're loaded out like that you can have the rest be siege torps: you can kill the defense (platforms) AND the planet in one go. No refits or restocks are necessary.
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Yes, frigate or cruiser with siege torp will be new sniper and here more evidence: This has got to stop
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Walrus of Apathy
Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: August 07, 2005
Posts: 466
From: Dorans Basement
| Posted: 2014-11-16 12:37
Quote:
On 2014-11-16 09:51, DiepLuc wrote:
All swapable gadgets must serve same purpose.
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Says who, exactly?
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pawnerz
Chief Marshal
Joined: September 03, 2010
Posts: 50
From: Somewhere Somehow
| Posted: 2014-11-16 13:14
400 GU Arming range, 800 max range, 70 seconds cool-down. Hardly a sniper XD
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Yet another forum thread by me about planets and AI >:D
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Incinarator
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 24, 2010
Posts: 237
| Posted: 2014-11-16 15:05
Quote:
On 2014-11-16 09:51, DiepLuc wrote:
All swapable gadgets must serve same purpose. The purpose of bomb category is to damage planetary structure. Siege torp falls out of that.
When the role introduced, I thought the role was clear and simple. Bomber role is to damage planet. Torp role is to damage ship. The only reason that bomber does the job after the combat is bright like the day: there is no way to bomb a planet when there are many point defenses around. Fix that.
Is there anyone here actually use siege torp on cruiser/dread with bombing intension?
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No, swappable gadgets do not have to serve the same purpose. Auxillary shields and auxillary generators are an example.
I agree that having the bomber 'role' have anti planet AND anti ship weaponry is a bit strange. I can't think of a better solution, though.
Yes, I would use siege torps to clear plats so I could bomb. Would I do that if I'm solo? Maybe not. In a larger group, though, that could be invaluable for an assault on a fortified enemy position.
Quote:
On 2014-11-16 09:51, DiepLuc wrote:
Quote:
On 2014-11-15 18:44, Incinarator wrote:
Having an un-PDable torpedo that deals structure damage would be stupidly overpowered.
In the combat scenario having a bomber with stupidly huge AoE and alpha weapons would certainly be more useful, don't you think
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I think these 2 sentences sound contradictory.
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No. Siege torps do not deal planet damage, so that doesn't follow.
Quote:
On 2014-11-16 09:51, DiepLuc wrote:
Tracking beam.
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A team that knows what they are doing will easily defend from that. Advocating a strategy that is almost always suicidal does not help those who care about their stats. It also gives no prestiege.
Quote:
On 2014-11-16 09:51, DiepLuc wrote:
Yes, frigate or cruiser with siege torp will be new sniper and here more evidence: This has got to stop
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First off, I don't see what that has to do with my quoted statement. Secondly, siege torps may have high alpha but their DPS is not that great. Ergo, if they don't kill in one shot they're nearly useless... and sub dread siege torps rarely will. I also never claimed that I think siege torps are balanced the way they are. I do not think siege torps are balanced the way they are.
[ This Message was edited by: Incinarator on 2014-11-16 15:10 ]
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2014-11-16 23:59
Fun fact: Siege Torps have a much lower DPS than the core torpedoes they're based on.
Variance Torpedo: 3,000 DPS
Quantum Singularity Torpedo: 3,500 DPS
Neutronium Torpedo: 4,000 DPS
Variance Siege Torpedo: 1,800 DPS
Quantum Singularity Siege Torpedo: 2,100 DPS
Neutronium Siege Torpedo: 2,400 DPS
Also, keep in mind that they're unguided and very slow. Within the first few days of them going live, I watched a Battle Station dodge Dread-launched Siege Torps.
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