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A brief(ish) analysis of the Psychology behind Darkspace players. |
Sheraton*XO*
Chief Marshal
Faster than Light
Joined: January 18, 2013
Posts: 482
From: Keel Mountains
|  Posted: 2013-08-30 22:01
Quote:
On 2013-08-30 21:46, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-08-30 12:18, Fattierob wrote:
Coeus seems to be advocating the concept of Perfect Imbalance but on a larger scale.
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Heh. Perhaps we should just do as suggested. The next time players scream OP, just leave it be and wait for the geniuses to find a way to overcome that purported OP-ness.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2013-08-30 21:47 ]
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I always advocate combat destroyers, personally for this last point.
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Twilit Keel Mountains traversed at last we met a dragon who spoke thus: \"Sheraton am I who interprets the signs.\"
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2013-08-30 22:51
TBH,
I'm wishing that the interdictor cruisers of old can be brought back. This will make short ranged ships even more vulnerable to missile ships, given that they now have limited PD to defend themselves against a swarm of vampires. Vice versa for missile ships being caught in a field with an assault ship in tow.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2013-08-30 23:01
Quote:
On 2013-08-30 22:51, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
TBH,
I'm wishing that the interdictor cruisers of old can be brought back. This will make short ranged ships even more vulnerable to missile ships, given that they now have limited PD to defend themselves against a swarm of vampires. Vice versa for missile ships being caught in a field with an assault ship in tow.
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Yeah, having them disable a ship's own JD while active and have a cooldown after being turned off would have solved all the issues with them.
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Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
| Posted: 2013-08-31 00:22
Sure, go ahead and bring back interdictors, but not until you remove prestige penalty for death entirely.
Interdictors just make a stacked team even more impossible to deal with.
Usually you can at least jump out if you're out-numbered, interdictors are just going to make sure the target dies, and for what purpose? only to make them lose prestige, as you can just as easily put someone out of commission and out of your way without killing them.
Causing death isn't a requirement for winning a battle, enemy withdraw is just as good.
If a team with superior numbers is utilizing an interdictor, there's only two ways to properly handle that situation: log out or use an ECM corvette/frigate and be slightly annoying.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2013-08-31 04:48
Quote:
On 2013-08-31 00:22, Fluttershy wrote:
Sure, go ahead and bring back interdictors, but not until you remove prestige penalty for death entirely.
Interdictors just make a stacked team even more impossible to deal with.
Usually you can at least jump out if you're out-numbered, interdictors are just going to make sure the target dies, and for what purpose? only to make them lose prestige, as you can just as easily put someone out of commission and out of your way without killing them.
Causing death isn't a requirement for winning a battle, enemy withdraw is just as good.
If a team with superior numbers is utilizing an interdictor, there's only two ways to properly handle that situation: log out or use an ECM corvette/frigate and be slightly annoying.
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Yep.
Just like what the thread is all about. They want to be able to kill to gain pres, but not lose pres when they die. Everybody wants gains without risks.
The penalty in DS is so much less severe than in other games, for eg. EVE Online. You don't have to grind it out to earn the millions of credits needed to go construct your Elite Ass Dread, only to have it ganked by a gang of trolls just 500 gus out from your Shipyard and then lose all your weeks or even months of hardwork just like that.
No. Hell no. You lose what? 200 pres? In the smaller ships, you lose even less, it's virtually nothing.
It's mentalities like these which dumb down a game to its lowest levels. Gotta be blunt about it.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2013-08-31 04:58
Quote:
On 2013-08-30 23:01, Talien wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-08-30 22:51, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
TBH,
I'm wishing that the interdictor cruisers of old can be brought back. This will make short ranged ships even more vulnerable to missile ships, given that they now have limited PD to defend themselves against a swarm of vampires. Vice versa for missile ships being caught in a field with an assault ship in tow.
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Yeah, having them disable a ship's own JD while active and have a cooldown after being turned off would have solved all the issues with them.
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There're many ways to implement interdictors. What we had was a simple on and off dico that sapped energy.
Did we even consider or evaluate other ways of changing the dicos before capitulating to QQ's of ppl who are scared of losing pres, and eliminating them completely?
Perhaps we could have explored other ways to re-implement it.
For eg;
- Dicos that activated only for 10 secs when it was activated, and then have a cooldown of say, 30 secs?
- Dicos that affected all ships friend and foe alike?
- The dico ship itself not being able to jump (and run from an enemy) when his own dico was switched on?
- A counter-interdictor field which negated or render useless a dico when it meets the dico source?
- A 2-mode dictor (one interdictor, one counter-interdictor) to do as above?
Options, options. Better than just listening to threats of players who're concerned about losing 200 pres out of their thousands.
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Pantheon
Marshal
Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1789
| Posted: 2013-08-31 05:30
Dictors will not be returning to ships for a number of reasons.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2013-08-31 06:21
Quote:
On 2013-08-31 05:30, Pantheon wrote:
Dictors will not be returning to ships for a number of reasons.
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Yep. We know that.
Was just trying to make a point pertaining to this thread.
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Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
| Posted: 2013-08-31 06:58
Quote:
On 2013-08-31 04:48, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
Yep.
Just like what the thread is all about. They want to be able to kill to gain pres, but not lose pres when they die. Everybody wants gains without risks.
The penalty in DS is so much less severe than in other games, for eg. EVE Online. You don't have to grind it out to earn the millions of credits needed to go construct your Elite Ass Dread, only to have it ganked by a gang of trolls just 500 gus out from your Shipyard and then lose all your weeks or even months of hardwork just like that.
No. Hell no. You lose what? 200 pres? In the smaller ships, you lose even less, it's virtually nothing.
It's mentalities like these which dumb down a game to its lowest levels. Gotta be blunt about it.
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My complaints over the interdictor as it was implemented were based on several incidents happening to other players, not really a personal preference, not because I didn't like it, I'm not even sure I let myself die to one, maybe once or twice.
Hell, I was using interdictors as often as possible up until the point that they got removed, because it was a ship I could really help the team with when I couldn't use an assault dread.
There were just so many scenarios where players were getting hunted down, trapped, and slaughtered, often at the last second so they don't have time to maneuver or fire at the interdictor.
One time we saw a station launch from a SY, just popping in to see what's up, so we jump in, keep its combat timer going, and when it felt like it was about to jump out, the interdictor showed up and pinned it down so it could be destroyed.
Never had to complain about the Interdictor, just used it and let everyone else do the complaining.
Perhaps it didn't need to be removed entirely. Alternatives WERE discussed, but many were not easily done or didn't fix the issue.
[ This Message was edited by: Fluttershy on 2013-08-31 06:58 ]
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2013-08-31 11:54
This thread smells such a retro one.
I miss the old defense system so much. There are many games who also love them. I wish they come back with a tweak.
Panth had stated that planetary PD loaded tons of CPU usage several times. But there are three crucial update in 1.7: 2 types of beams (anti-ship and point-defense); sensor and ewar gadget balancing; number of planets is cut. The key to bring factionally planetary defense is to assign them only anti-ship beam. I'm not a developer, I guess antiship beam does not eat resource as pointdefense beam does. Even if its equal, tier II bomber has enough ECM to hide itself and does not acwake the defense. It's those AI which causes troublesome with their PD!
The old planetary defense did not balance well in its role, each of defense type (bomb, hydrid, offense) did not distinguish from the others. As I heard planetary system will be overhauled after 1.7, I think we can clarify like these:
- Bomb 1: 2 normal antiship beam, 1 torpedo. Bomb 2: 2 heavy antiship beam, 1 torpedo.
- Hydrid 1: 1 normal antiship beam, 2 normal cannon. Hydrid 2: 1 normal antiship beam, 2 heavy cannon.
- Offense 1: 1 normal antiship beam, 1 skirmish missle. Offense 2: 1 normal antiship beam, 2 strike missle.
The current defense system does not require builder much thinking of design. Nevertheless, it was always exciting to keep a factional defense due to its original weapon. I remember ICC hydrid and K'Luth offense was famous in 1.5.
To be honest, the current planetary defense has disappointed both builder and bomber. There are a quarter of players love building and bombing and I think parts of them quit because they lost their interest. In facts, players dislike defense able to shoot all targets in range.
If aforementioned planetary defense dares to turn back in game, cloud bombing will come back as a consequence. Bomber has reason and has the rights to cloud bomb within missle range. Thus the joy is double! Old gamers will be eager to replay when they hear the delightful news.
I heard from veteran that the old 1.4 planetary system was able to destroy 100 bombs within its range with a sole defense structure. There are more players in 1.4 compared to 1.6 and they also did cloud-bombing more often. Obviously server couldn't sustain at such rate. But in 1.7 there are several clues that server can afford factionist planetary defense: less players, less planets, more powerful server, weaker sensor, and anti-ship beam not-anti-pod. I hope the idea of reviving factionist planetary defense can be reviewed.
[ This Message was edited by: DiepLuc on 2013-08-31 12:51 ]
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Ray[OU]
Marshal
Joined: December 07, 2010
Posts: 189
From: Some where in deep space, From another galaxy. [Origin Unknown]
| Posted: 2013-08-31 13:21
Again i stopped reading after the secound page BUT I DO agree with the originaly post. I also agree with i have no desire to log in anymore, It's not FUN anymore. The game is dull and boreing content and player based. I also agree with you guys are trying to be Borg and make it perfect in this case why dont you just give everyone a Box ship and a Lazor that does 1% damage and let em all loose in a blank map? Lower ranked players in all other MMO games always get poped by higher levels and yet you are trying to make it Fair? theres no joy in noobs vs vets=Fair theres Joy in vet=own noob everytime that noob learns and then one day will to pop noobs with ease.
I dont care how old a game is i just know back when i first started up till Mid FA it was fun i got killed all the time and i hated the map but it WAS fun and i loved it yea i QQed alot but it was fun there was a reason to play there was always a Battle there was no shortage of pres yea you guys say that when i was playing the pres system was broken and giveing more then supposed to but hey it was fun back then id die ina stat and lose 300 but gain it back in 5-10 minutes missles/fighter spamming nowadays i lose 600 and it may take all damn day to get it back. Its like money why would you do something that lose you more money then you gained?
Game needs players and content that was actually useful it needs more then just pew pew, The game doesnt need Balanece your quest for perfection will never be reached, give up and talior the factions Accordingly If you bring back Faction swapable devices it would be fun again just say ok this ship has 100 points for devises engines are 10 points each and torpedo's are 20 and cannons are 15 and beams are 10 Electronic warfare cost 15 ok pick and choose your devices for your ship. OR have ok this ship has 4 weapons Fore and 4 weapons aft 1 engine slot ect. Id suggest something like STO but there's not enough money for that everyone works in there "Spare" time ect. Yea sure this might result in insta pop noob in a frig with a dread But in every game that is the case Frigs shouldnt have a chance against a dread. perhaps in large numbers yes you could widdel it down but youd suffer loses.
Anyhow its not like anything i say matters here. so go on about your day and continue your everlasting non profitable quest of Balance.
-Ray
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2013-08-31 14:04
This:
Quote:
On 2013-08-31 13:21, Ray[OU] wrote:
Again i stopped reading after the secound page
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...is what guarantees this:
Quote:
Anyhow its not like anything i say matters here.
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If you haven't followed the conversation, why should we bother listening to you? The points you raise have been brought up and addressed already, and I have no desire to repeat myself.
I also question whether you've played Beta at all before forming your opinions on "balance".
[ This Message was edited by: Jim Starluck on 2013-08-31 14:05 ]
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Pantheon
Marshal
Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1789
| Posted: 2013-08-31 15:57
Quote:
On 2013-08-31 11:54, DiepLuc wrote:
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The planets have to search for missiles in range and fire them on the server, which adds load.
PD on ships is done by the client, unless it's AI, in which case the server lowers the polling rate if the CPU load is high. If we did this for planets, people would just exploit it bomb easier.
The decision was made to move to a far more simple system which gave us ridiculous levels of room to play with back then. Even so, we've had to split the MV up even more to facilitate future plans as load is still high.
There is nothing we can do to bring the old system back that doesn't have a performance impact past re-designing significant portions of the engine, in which you'd have no code changes done up to 12 months just to have the beams back.
That's not an acceptable decision for either Faustus or myself. I don't know how many times I have to beat this horse to death: it is not coming back for technical reasons.
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Sheraton*XO*
Chief Marshal
Faster than Light
Joined: January 18, 2013
Posts: 482
From: Keel Mountains
| Posted: 2013-08-31 16:21
Quote:
On 2013-08-31 15:57, Pantheon wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-08-31 11:54, DiepLuc wrote:
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I don't know how many times I have to beat this horse to death: it is not coming back for technical reasons.
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Once more, as always Jack, once more.
-Sheraton
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Twilit Keel Mountains traversed at last we met a dragon who spoke thus: \"Sheraton am I who interprets the signs.\"
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2013-09-01 03:57
Quote:
On 2013-08-31 16:21, Sheraton *XO* wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-08-31 15:57, Pantheon wrote:
I don't know how many times I have to beat this horse to death: it is not coming back for technical reasons.
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Once more, as always Jack, once more.
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Jack, you can stick a (lock) thread developer feedback. List terminated suggestions that you have rejected several times. Explain the technical reasons in a simple way so that non-IT gamers can comprehend. It ought to take you a few time to write, then players will read it and not create duplicate topics afterwards since they're satisfied. And you can always share the link in your signature. Free of beating horse to death!
[ This Message was edited by: DiepLuc on 2013-09-01 14:16 ]
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