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Too many AI |
Iwancoppa
Fleet Admiral
Joined: November 15, 2008
Posts: 709
|  Posted: 2013-07-03 18:33
Can we please cut back on the MV AI count, especially in kaus? TLDR at bottom.
It's totally ridiculous. Having a fun 2v2 cruiser fight at Melando, then that K'luth elite that magically ruins the fun jumps in and forces a reship to dreds just to get rid of it.
Then, because we are destroying this annoying AI, an entire swarm of AI come in to defend it. As we work through the AI, A longhead comes in. We kill it, causing ANOTHER longhead to come in. By this time our opponents have reshipped into dreds and are taking full advantage of this AI Storm.
Finally, it gets too much. The AI have ruined the fight and made it easier for the more numerous K'luth players to win. I jump off and then jump back, hoping to reship, only for ANOTHER longhead to jump straight in and lock me in combat. 3 K'luth dreds then give the usual Anal treatment as I try to align out to a supply platform after being ravaged by YET ANOTHER longhead.
Yes, I am a little butthurt - I rarely lose my AD. But, the thing that makes me annoyed about this case is that it was purely because of the AI.
When AI was introduced, IIRC, the idea was that it would help the side with less players and generally add more size and fluff to battles by including smaller ship classes and generally adding some fun.
In the last week in Kaus all the AI has done is spam and jump right into fun PVP fights(usually K'luth AI too) and ruin them for both sides. The side under attack by AI usually has no choice but to run away and the opponent has no fun because the AI are doing it all.
The absolute worst part of it is that while this entire AI spam was happening at Melando, Not a single ICC AI was there until a longhead showed up, which prompted a few cruisers. Not once did any ICC elite turn up, which brings me to my next point -
Why is the K'luth elite dred always in Kaus?
The ICC elites aren't there
The UGTO elites aren't there
So why the K'luth elite?
Anyway, What I think should happen to Kaus.
-AI totally removed excluding MI
Why?
For a proper PVP arena without spoiling and interference by hoards of AI and elites.
TLDR;
AI are an inconsistent force multiplier that extremely often skews and then ruins fights, especially in Kaus where there appears to always be hoards of them.
[ This Message was edited by: iwancoppa on 2013-07-03 18:34 ]
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[Revan]
Fleet Admiral
Joined: June 12, 2010
Posts: 24
| Posted: 2013-07-03 18:36
Quote:
On 2013-07-03 18:33, iwancoppa wrote:
Anyway, What I think should happen to Kaus.
-AI totally removed excluding MI
Why?
For a proper PVP arena without spoiling and interference by hoards of AI and elites.
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with the few players that are on , having no ai's would make kaus a barren waste
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Pantheon
Marshal
Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1789
| Posted: 2013-07-03 18:37
AI can use gates, they're not part of Kaus.
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PsyCrow
Admiral
Joined: June 21, 2012
Posts: 56
| Posted: 2013-07-03 18:51
It may be better if AI only flew to and faught in a 'battle zone' area away from any planets, and didn't respond to distress calls at all outside their zone.
No idea how it could be coded to behave like that, but right now the AI are extremely bothersome to whoever doesn't have them.
If they stayed confined to a specific area, then we wouldn't be getting constant interference all the time.
I wouldn't say remove them, though, it gives us stuff to shoot at when nobody is online.
[ This Message was edited by: PsyCrow on 2013-07-03 18:52 ]
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2013-07-03 20:25
There is a way to get rid of AI dread for several mins: capture them.
I myself have spent time capturing all the AI dreads I saw in Kaus. This solution, at some points, makes me satisfied cause I gain capture point and has more ally AI dread to kill annoying hostile AI.
What does not make me happy enough is the playing time of the captured one. By the time I captured the 3rd dread, the first one went to gate and logged. Take the dice of capturing aside, the gap of time between runs is short. The playing time of captured AI is simply not so long.
I hear that the destruction of the captured one no longer minuses prestige of who was captured. Is that true? If it's true, then extending playing time of captured one is very praiseful.
Btw, can we have the capture ship (from cruiser to scout) chance easier? It's too difficult to drop infantry on them. I never think I can lay any infantry on AI scout & frigate. Nearly impossible.
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+SuperNova+
Marshal
Joined: June 20, 2008
Posts: 30
From: Inside You
| Posted: 2013-07-03 21:27
Quote:
On 2013-07-03 20:25, DiepLuc wrote:
What does not make me happy enough is the playing time of the captured one. By the time I captured the 3rd dread, the first one went to gate and logged. Take the dice of capturing aside, the gap of time between runs is short. The playing time of captured AI is simply not so long.
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One of the reasons behind this A.I. logging was to avoid the abuse of AI capturing. Since too many AI on one fraction will lead to an imbalance.
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Legatus Immolation
Marshal
Joined: December 20, 2004
Posts: 384
| Posted: 2013-07-03 21:29
Here's Something for you about the AI, ICC and UGTO AI have to Come from their Main systems, yet you wonder why Kluth AI quicker, Answer is, they spawn Directly in Kaus, they Spawn faster then all the other AI's and they spawn directly from Uolme.
oh and for the Dev - They are not from Kaus - ... well... why do Kluth AI spawn so much faster and spawn from Kaus?
[ This Message was edited by: -Merc- Inner Sphere on 2013-07-03 21:32 ]
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Taelon
Marshal
Joined: December 26, 2011
Posts: 255
| Posted: 2013-07-03 22:00
kluth do not spawn in kaus, only MI do, and Kluth get places faster cause their planets dont block gates and also JD recharges slightly faster.
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Iwancoppa
Fleet Admiral
Joined: November 15, 2008
Posts: 709
| Posted: 2013-07-04 04:02
I don't think it's a case of 'gets there faster', but more a case of 'always there and never other factions'
They also seem to operate in large mobs which other faction AIs don't. I know they run the same code, but it's darn annoying how K'luth AI always outnumbers UGTO/ICC AI by 3/4:1.
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Marshalrol
Chief Marshal
Joined: August 29, 2007
Posts: 18
From: Nassau,Bahamas
| Posted: 2013-07-04 08:33
Ai are a problem but not ot have them is even worst. Prehaps ai count can be reduce as people log into one faction other words ai reduce on one faction when the coun t is high increase it for the other i believe it could help the balance. When 1.7 comes out it will be better.
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Xydes
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 07, 2009
Posts: 276
From: England
| Posted: 2013-07-04 11:32
Seen and heard a lot of complaints about there being too many AI.
What I have noticed is that the K'luth Elite Dreads love to jump into battles all over the system. So they end up having a bunch of AI surrounding anyway. Also, whenever I am on, I like to use AI to my advantage, that's what they are there for.
As most of the fighting is in Kaus Borealis, the AI do love to flock there due to distress signals being sent out by planets, AI and other players. The reason they seem to always be in Kaus Borealis is that Uolme is always under attack by the MI. Longheads, Transports and Cruisers love to flock to Uolme so the AI Defend or Fallback to that planet as it is the only friendly planet in the system for Luthies (At the moment).
As for why they seem to 'get there faster' - Jump Drives. As Pantheon mentioned, they have a faster recharge than other factions.
Why UGTO and ICC AI Elites always seem to be alone?
Don't know about that one. Possibly racism or segregation among the Human Race has isolated some elites? lol.
Just my thought.
-Xydes
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*Flash*
Chief Marshal
Joined: April 19, 2009
Posts: 291
From: Semi retired after 1.67 !
| Posted: 2013-07-04 11:53
Quote:
On 2013-07-04 08:33, Admiralrol wrote:
Ai are a problem but not ot have them is even worst. Prehaps ai count can be reduce as people log into one faction other words ai reduce on one faction when the coun t is high increase it for the other i believe it could help the balance. When 1.7 comes out it will be better.
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Aye thats what ive always said!
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2013-07-04 12:32
Quote:
On 2013-07-04 11:53, *Flash* wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-07-04 08:33, Admiralrol wrote:
Prehaps ai count can be reduce as people log into one faction other words ai reduce on one faction when the coun t is high increase it for the other i believe it could help the balance.
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Aye thats what ive always said!
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Already in game.
If you notice, when you're in F2, press unhide AI and you will see the total of ships - including players, NPC and platform - always sum up at a fixed number.
The more platforms you build, the less NPC ship run around. NPC transport (which is called by starport) also reduces NPC combat (or vice versa).
Even if it does not work, in the mean time, there is no other solution for us - the player - to have less NPC.
Quote:
On 2013-07-04 11:32, Dark Xydes wrote:
What I have noticed is that the K'luth Elite Dreads love to jump into battles all over the system. So they end up having a bunch of AI surrounding anyway.
As for why they seem to 'get there faster' - Jump Drives. As Pantheon mentioned, they have a faster recharge than other factions.
Why UGTO and ICC AI Elites always seem to be alone?
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You answer it yourself - the jumpdrive cooling.
Due to fast cooldown, NPC K'luth can catch up with the calling distress one in a few minutes, and is faster than human. It's not likely "alone NPC", it's kind of slow response.
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Code Red
Chief Marshal
Non Omnis Moriar
Joined: September 08, 2007
Posts: 184
| Posted: 2013-07-05 06:46
I have to agree that there is too much ai , today for example , I am only ugto on , capture a planet in kaus , 1 luth appears (after dieing) in a station and when he is near the planet has 10 ai with him inc the mandi and the infamous krill , sorry but this is just fun killing overkill , we cant cloak to avoid it so its jump away or be ai'd to death. ( and at this time I had a ai suppy and a dessie and a BD trying to get to me being attacked by the MI)
As a side note , today while i played , MI nuked Paul three times , Melando twice and Acerue once and haven once, and thats the ones i saw = again overkill sorry , i know a lot of players that just cant be bothered to play while this is going on.
This one factor limits my playtime and enthusiasm to play more , sorry but thats just the plain fact of the matter.
[ This Message was edited by: Code Red on 2013-07-05 10:31 ]
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Forger of Destiny
Chief Marshal
We Kick Arse
Joined: October 10, 2009
Posts: 826
| Posted: 2013-07-05 12:00
1. shorter travel times.
What this image conveys is that ICC and K'Luth territories each have a transfer gate in the systems adjacent to Kaus, while UGTO do not.
transfer gates are from where AI hordes spawn. the shorter is the travel time from a gate, the faster will the ai return to combat after being killed.
as someone pointed out, the route for ICC ships is blocked by planets, while that for KLuth ships is not. so, both UGTO and ICC ai need 2 jumps for reaching Kaus, and KLuth require only 1. combining this with faster jump drives, kluth ai dominate the territory.
also worth noting, the v1.7 map has the UGTO server gate directly connecting to the main system (lalande).
2. too many ai.
i understand that transfer gates have some form of timer which prevents them from spawning too many ships too quickly (this is very noticeable at the very beginning of a scenario map, and may be observed there).
this timer/limit is not compatible with the number of ai that are maintained in the MV. once the limit is reached, the transfer gate(s) are able to near-immediately respawn any ai that get destroyed (which often tend to be dreads given their high priority), within times as short as 1 minute.
if an enemy faction captures planets in a system with a transfer gate (best example is cincinnati), ai dreads will continually jump in, fight, die, respawn and jump in again.
this continues until there are no more enemy ships to attack, at which point ai transports will hit it out at planets and mark them for blockading.
in a sentence, killing ai makes little difference in the opposition that a faction has to face, for the ai get replenished nearly as fast as they get destroyed. perpetual motion at its best.
also worth mentioning, having too many ai (especially starport ai) would inevitably cause some form of load on the server (ok, hydra is immune to this) and on the location updates that are sent out to clients.
having less ai to update would mean faster and more efficient bandwidth usage, and better client performance.
3. ai in hordes
a long time back (ofcourse no one remembers it) a change was implemented so that ai always travel in packs, and smaller ai hover around dread ai.
i speculate, that only because of this change, ai ships stopped forming 2 ship or 3 ship groups and started believing in 6-10 ship fleets.
3 ship squadrons were better for fending off against, as they posed moderate risk but didnt mean instant defeat the moment they arrived.
4. stupid ai
AI just... throw themselves wherever they think they can be of use. ideally, scouts would scout (which they do fine currently), frigates would patrol planets (which they dont), destroyers would support other ships, cruisers would lead random attacks and the one or two dreadnoughts would defend planets under attack.
if there are 10 ai on a faction, and if all of them respond to a planet being attacked by a puny corvette, then something isnt right.
ai need to weigh in the magnitude of enemy forces (no one can guess 3 mandibles would cloak near a clavate bomber) and decide whether they should move or stay back.
1 frigate should suffice for small time distress calls. these should not be responded by cruisers (so slow) or dreads (so few).
on the other hand, a sizeable group of ships blockading a planet should be responded by most or all dreads and cruisers, but a handful of frigates and destroyers should hang back as a minimal garrison.
its mostly common sense, and i hope it can be understood. as a general rule, the more ai that already have responded to a distress, the less chance that another ai responds to it.
[ This Message was edited by: Trader of Destiny on 2013-07-06 08:54 ]
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