| Author |
Kluth Transports |
Code Red
Chief Marshal
Non Omnis Moriar
Joined: September 08, 2007
Posts: 184
|  Posted: 2012-11-20 08:14
Please can devs advise their thoughts on how we are to stop the luth tranny rush now that ping has gone and planets defs are so weak that the luth player does not even worry about using a full health tranny to do this? blind fire vs a tranny? the new ECCM system with the small player base does not help at all as far as I can see unless I am missing something (aprt from my sanity that is)
And in all seriousnes if countering this when the opposition just drop , Sd , respawn , is supposed to be FUN then i can tell you it is not and will not encourage people to play , something i hope the devs dont want!!!! Thjis was using a planet with sensor bases and sensor plats and a ship using ECCM and a sig near the planet of around 80 and the tranny can still just waltz in drop sd and repeat , seriously is this what DS has become?????
[ This Message was edited by: Code Red on 2012-11-20 08:37 ]
_________________
Code Red, For winning in the 1RA Fleet Wars event, here's your coupon for a week.
|
hzn
Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 09, 2009
Posts: 19
From: Jeddah (Saudi arabia)
| Posted: 2012-11-20 08:17
i`d like to know how to counter those tranny cloaked rushes too , and please dont say use bomber to counter it , that will just kill the population resulting in killing that planet power/workers and then the planet will be offline.. and then you will be defenseless which will help the kluth more by motivating them to get the planet by blockading it with ships
_________________
|
[ML]RogueAvengerTTV
Marshal
Joined: September 11, 2010
Posts: 300
From: England
| Posted: 2012-11-20 09:28
May waste plats but should work and 
_________________
![Email [ML]RogueAvengerTTV](http://www1.palestar.com/gamecq/phpBB/images/email.gif)
|
Brutality
Marshal
Joined: May 25, 2009
Posts: 659
From: Alaska, USA
| Posted: 2012-11-20 10:49
Only way to seriously counter this is to use the tactic like rogue said and build platforms around the planet. Other than that, there isn't much you can really do. 
_________________
|
Ravendark
Marshal
Sanity Assassins
Joined: July 01, 2010
Posts: 443
| Posted: 2012-11-20 11:41
i think tactics that are "hard" to counter can be found with every faction.
icc missile spam, uggie station spam for popular example. wich are all hard to fix because they are racial traits of some sort.
hint: spray style blind fire 
_________________
|
Code Red
Chief Marshal
Non Omnis Moriar
Joined: September 08, 2007
Posts: 184
| Posted: 2012-11-20 12:26
it is a small number that use this "tactic" thankfully , but as i pointed out earlier there were a large number of sensor and weapon platforms used to defend a sy planet as well as 2 sensor bases on the planet , along with my ship running eccm (the sig next to the planet was high 70's to 80) the enemy transport is able to cruise in pretty much undetected , unless some blind fire hits it , move safely around the planet and drop so close to the planet that platform pd is not effective. For me the worry is that 1 tranny can pretty much make the platforms and planet defs irrelevant , if the tranny drops quickly when it decloaks it makes the killing of said tranny pointless as they can sd anyways and respawn , rinse and repeat.
Planets should be a valuable powerful opponent (if built correctly  ) and while a constant flow of a few planets changing hands over a period keeps the game from stagnating In my humble opinion no one ship from any faction should be able to cripple a planet.
Sorry Bratwurst but the old days of me needing to farm anyone are long gone my friend, my pres is irrelevant to me its the FUN of playing that is , if we have plats tractor them like you did = fine , or grab combat and kill them = fine , or grab a bomber and hit a diff planet to draw defender away = fine , i have zero problems with 99% of actions as most have a counter , for me tranny rushing in a ship that is all but unstoppable = not fine as no counter.
[ This Message was edited by: Code Red on 2012-11-20 12:31 ]
_________________
Code Red, For winning in the 1RA Fleet Wars event, here's your coupon for a week.
|
Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2012-11-20 12:28
Quote:
|
On 2012-11-20 09:28, [ICS]RogueAvenger wrote:
img snip
May waste plats but should work and
|
|
It does not work when someone can move up to where they're touching the planet before decloaking to drop. You'll have MAYBE 1 or 2 pods PDed, and that's only if they don't do it right and are still a few GU away from touching the planet.
_________________
Adapt or die.
|
Forger of Destiny
Chief Marshal
We Kick Arse
Joined: October 10, 2009
Posts: 826
| Posted: 2012-11-21 07:28
what i see as the causes of the problem is that
1) transports, especially heavy/armored transports, dont cost any prestige/resources/shipyards to spawn. so a single player can, with unreasonably high chances of success, flood enemy planets and players with noob inf
2) (and to a lesser extent) kluth cloak does not penalise/reward much with respect to the ECCM being used against (and ECM being used for).
as an immediate remedy, make heavy transports require a shipyard to spawn, and a prestige loss (approx 10-50 midshipman-to-chiefmarshal) as basic deterrence.
and later, maybe review ship signatures in general, because i see it at fault more than the cloak mechanism itself (2 signature for destroyer, 20 signature for station for example).
@rsm thx
_________________
Forging legends and lives outside till naught remains inside.
|
Doran
Chief Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 29, 2003
Posts: 4032
From: The Gideon Unit
| Posted: 2012-11-21 15:07
_________________
|
Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-11-21 23:42
Quote:
|
On 2012-11-21 07:28, Mike Paradox wrote:
what i see as the causes of the problem is that
1) transports, especially heavy/armored transports, dont cost any prestige/resources/shipyards to spawn. so a single player can, with unreasonably high chances of success, flood enemy planets and players with noob inf
2) (and to a lesser extent) kluth cloak does not penalise/reward much with respect to the ECCM being used against (and ECM being used for).
as an immediate remedy, make heavy transports require a shipyard to spawn, and a prestige loss (approx 10-50 midshipman-to-chiefmarshal) as basic deterrence.
and later, maybe review ship signatures in general, because i see it at fault more than the cloak mechanism itself (2 signature for destroyer, 20 signature for station for example).
@rsm thx
|
|
Actually, these are very good suggestions.
Trannies, if we refer to the ship recognition charts, are roughly dessie sized ships, and should require SYs to spawn. The only issue i see with this is that it will affect Scenario play, where the initial part of the game involves tranny rushing unoccupied planets to cap and secure ground.
Making them more expensive to lose could work too. Just give them the pres loss of a dessie.
The idea of making ECCM have more effect (energy drain) on cloak sounds good too, but with that I propose to increase ECM's effectiveness against ECCM.
Right now, ECCM is pretty useless, and ECM in turn is, too. By doing this, we can bring EW back into play. Kluth will need to field ECM to counter ECCM.
_________________
... in space, no one can hear you scream.....
|
Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2012-11-22 00:28
ECM has been utterly useless for a long time, it was nerfed by 50%, and I've been pointing out that it was a horrible idea since it happened. ECM doesn't need a buff it just needs to be de-nerfed so it's on equal footing with ECCM like it was.
ECCM having more of an effect on power drain for cloaked ships sounds like a good idea, but remember what happened with the Siphon at first? It wouldn't solve the cloaked tranny rush issue anyway since they'd only need to get into range of a planet or ship then drop, most don't care if they die after, and some just SD because it's quicker than flying to a SY.
Giving Transports increased pres loss is also not the best idea because that will also hit ICC and UGTO as well. Transports die way too easy.
Making it so Transports need a SY to spawn.....may actually not be such a bad idea. You don't need inf to cap neutral planets in scen, you just need to orbit them for a few seconds and they're yours. That may actually HELP scen because it would stop the early "spawn, drop, SD/dock, repeat" tranny rushes on planets that people are trying to build. Even better if AI transports are removed as well, they're only slightly less useless in scen as MV.
Simplest solution would be to remove the cloak from luth noncombat ships and give them more armor.
_________________
Adapt or die.
|
Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-11-22 01:35
Quote:
|
On 2012-11-22 00:28, Talien wrote:
ECM has been utterly useless for a long time, it was nerfed by 50%, and I've been pointing out that it was a horrible idea since it happened. ECM doesn't need a buff it just needs to be de-nerfed so it's on equal footing with ECCM like it was.
ECCM having more of an effect on power drain for cloaked ships sounds like a good idea, but remember what happened with the Siphon at first? It wouldn't solve the cloaked tranny rush issue anyway since they'd only need to get into range of a planet or ship then drop, most don't care if they die after, and some just SD because it's quicker than flying to a SY.
Giving Transports increased pres loss is also not the best idea because that will also hit ICC and UGTO as well. Transports die way too easy.
Making it so Transports need a SY to spawn.....may actually not be such a bad idea. You don't need inf to cap neutral planets in scen, you just need to orbit them for a few seconds and they're yours. That may actually HELP scen because it would stop the early "spawn, drop, SD/dock, repeat" tranny rushes on planets that people are trying to build. Even better if AI transports are removed as well, they're only slightly less useless in scen as MV.
Simplest solution would be to remove the cloak from luth noncombat ships and give them more armor.
|
|
We're not talking about a massive 50% increase in EW effectiveness. A few percentage points goes a long way. Let's just say we increase ECCM drain on cloak energy by another 10%. Then we simply un-nerf ECM's effectiveness against ECCM by a corresponding figure.
This will not impact ships like the Siphon too much. If it does, then said ship will simply have to bring along some ECM support.
I'm for increasing pres loss for trannies. Because not only Kluth does the tranny rush thing. Yes... K'luth trannies have 2 key advantages.
- The ability to close drop a dictored planet
- The ability to decloak and drop on an enemy ship
But all trannies can do close drops on undictored planets. I've witnessed UGTO trannies close jumping to within 50 GUs of a planet surface, and then dropping before SD-ing. You just need a little bit of knowledge of how to plot your jumps, and you're all set to tranny rush. Not gonna name the fleet. But these things do happen.
This is what happens when you have a feature in a game that can be USED (I'm not going to say exploit, because tactically speaking, that's what the cloak and jumpdrive are for). There is no perfect system to account for or cover everybody's playstyle or tactic.
Some tactics will be more difficult, or perhaps even impossible, for you to counter. But that doesn't mean the feature has to be removed. What the dev team can do is to do some tweaking, and hopefully not adversely affect or unnecessarily nerf the function of that feature in its more "standard" or "legitimate" use elsewhere.
Or sometimes, it will be simpler to just let it be. I'm serious about that. Not because I'm playing K'Luth (if I'm even playing much these days). But because you have to weigh the cost of correcting some otherwise minor thing that a small percentage of the playerbase do not like versus the bugs or adverse side effects that will follow.
As for removing cloak from any Kluth non-combat ship... I dunno about that. It's like removing shields from ICC non-combat ship. It's a faction characteristic.
_________________
... in space, no one can hear you scream.....
|
Hakketak
Grand Admiral
Joined: March 24, 2009
Posts: 301
| Posted: 2012-11-22 05:16
secret knowledge: you can fight enemy inf, with friendly inf. when you dont have friendly infantry, you can grab a transport ship and actually help defend your planet with some fresh recruits.
even more secret knowledge: you can repair structures with an engineer, for instance, when enemy infantry are razing
theres is more solutions then nerfing ships....
_________________
"I shouldn't be alive"
|
Borgie
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: August 15, 2005
Posts: 2256
From: close by
| Posted: 2012-11-22 06:17
Quote:
|
On 2012-11-22 05:16, Bratwurst wrote:
secret knowledge: you can fight enemy inf, with friendly inf. when you dont have friendly infantry, you can grab a transport ship and actually help defend your planet with some fresh recruits.
even more secret knowledge: you can repair structures with an engineer, for instance, when enemy infantry are razing
theres is more solutions then nerfing ships....
|
|
that would require people to get outta there stations and dreds
_________________
|
Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2012-11-22 09:16
Quote:
|
On 2012-11-22 05:16, Bratwurst wrote:
secret knowledge: you can fight enemy inf, with friendly inf. when you dont have friendly infantry, you can grab a transport ship and actually help defend your planet with some fresh recruits.
even more secret knowledge: you can repair structures with an engineer, for instance, when enemy infantry are razing
theres is more solutions then nerfing ships....
|
|
The issue isn't with luth dropping inf or structures being damaged, it's that there's no way to stop them from doing it. A transport that can be 100% undetectable until it chooses to decloak then drop it's inf with no chance of doing anything about it unless the player in the luth transport screws up and drops while they're still several GU away from the intended target.
Secret knowledge: It IS infact possible to fully read threads before chipping in.
_________________
Adapt or die.
|
English
Deutsch
Nederlands
)
