| Author |
Mine discussion/suggestions/tactics |
Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
|  Posted: 2012-07-26 23:23
I've tried various methods of mine use, none of which seem to have much effectiveness.
- Placing them on gate exit points.
This worked to an extent, however the limit imposed on them meant that the target just came through with some moderate damage to the front. If by any chance a ship came through while you were laying mines there, you'd probably get torn up by your own trap.
- Creating rings around a defensive position.
This wasn't too effective, the mines don't do enough damage for the oncoming enemies to give a damn, and really, the most good they did was make the enemy PD waste some energy.
- Overwhelming PD so missiles can hit, and so energy is wasted.
Tried dropping a bunch of these in front of an assault dread.
Waited for allied Harpex to get near the target.
Activated ECCM devices.
Enemy lasers all got occupied attacking the now-visible mines, so got hit by Harpex instead.
- Dropping them in the path of an enemy mid-combat.
Not really wise. Trying to do this will more often than not get your rear shot off, while doing virtually no significant damage.
I'm not exaggerating when I say that I had better luck doing damage with the lasers than the mines for which the ship is built around.
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NoBoDx
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 784
From: Germany / NRW
| Posted: 2012-07-27 00:52
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On 2012-07-26 23:23, Fluttershy wrote:
I've tried various methods of mine use, none of which seem to have much effectiveness.
- Placing them on gate exit points.
This worked to an extent, however the limit imposed on them meant that the target just came through with some moderate damage to the front. If by any chance a ship came through while you were laying mines there, you'd probably get torn up by your own trap.
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this should be a good tactic, problem is, in most cases you cant say where they wil exit the gate
some time ago, i think kenny and hakke were masters of this, and finished up multiple ships fleeing through a gate, spawning directly ontop of their scarabs mines
but in those days mines dealt alot more damage
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- Creating rings around a defensive position.
This wasn't too effective, the mines don't do enough damage for the oncoming enemies to give a damn, and really, the most good they did was make the enemy PD waste some energy.
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imho the main purpose of mines
unfortunatly not possible, because each launcher can only have 3 "shots" active and to mine a complete planet, you cant lay enough mines
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- Overwhelming PD so missiles can hit, and so energy is wasted.
Tried dropping a bunch of these in front of an assault dread.
Waited for allied Harpex to get near the target.
Activated ECCM devices.
Enemy lasers all got occupied attacking the now-visible mines, so got hit by Harpex instead.
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interesting idea, but youll get probably shot while setting up that minefield in front of an enemy (fleet)
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- Dropping them in the path of an enemy mid-combat.
Not really wise. Trying to do this will more often than not get your rear shot off, while doing virtually no significant damage.
I'm not exaggerating when I say that I had better luck doing damage with the lasers than the mines for which the ship is built around.
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this used to be a perfect tactic, scarabs with 8x +weapondamage 2-3 shottet dreads esp when they were distracted by other players
afaik thats was the main reason, why mine-damage was nerfed (ask kenny )
you'll take alot of damage, esp your rear, but it used to be very deadly, and the scarab had to get repairs every few attacks (but helped me getting many support-pres  )
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2012-07-27 01:29
In some laggy situations mines spawn after a delay, causing you to not be able to use them mid combat in front of a maneuvering enemy's path.
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Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
| Posted: 2012-07-27 01:45
The problem with having more powerful mines under the current game mechanics is that it would allow for them to be used in an incredibly overpowered way in a few circumstances.
Let's face it, nobody wants to go through a gate just to die, neither does someone want to sit around making a 1 minute long jump that leaves them without any fuel.
Allegiance had a similar problem, primarily that mines were normally used around sector connection points. However, due to better player numbers, you typically had 10 or so defenders that would peek in and disperse the mine layers, or a few people hanging around the gate to make sure a defense couldn't be well established.
Mines need an overhaul or just a replacement, because they really don't fit into any particular tactic that can't be dealt with in other more effective ways.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-07-27 03:53
In this game, there WAS really only 2 practical ways to use mines in their current form. I say was, because they're not as effective since some changes were made after 1.6.
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- Placing them on gate exit points.
This worked to an extent, however the limit imposed on them meant that the target just came through with some moderate damage to the front. If by any chance a ship came through while you were laying mines there, you'd probably get torn up by your own trap.
- Dropping them in the path of an enemy mid-combat.
Not really wise. Trying to do this will more often than not get your rear shot off, while doing virtually no significant damage.
I'm not exaggerating when I say that I had better luck doing damage with the lasers than the mines for which the ship is built around.
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Dropping them in the path of an enemy mid-combat
That was the job of the minelayers back in 1.5x. While the battle was going on, they would be doing the second function mentioned above. Dropping them in the path of an enemy mid-combat. You need 8 X AWM enhanced mines to do any sort of useful hurt.
Hitting dreads and stations were the main use of the Scarab back then. There was no cloak cooldown, so I could decloak next to a station's ring, release a salvo and immediately cloak. The ship would still lay the mines as it started to go invisible. Then I would simply reverse my direction, ensure that I was far away enough, and det them.
Against dreads, you would need them distracted by your allied dreads. Then you'd go head on or across their flight path and just release away. Let the enemy dread run into them and close det the ones that miss. You would take some damage for sure, but that's the risk you'd take.
Useless against cruisers or dessies as they are usually maneuvarable enough to dodge your bombing attempts.
Oh, and yes, the mines were quite effective against Scouts. Sensor/Covert-Op scouts usually flew with ECMs on to avoid detection, and that made them vulnerable to mines as they couldn't see them. You had to watch their exhaust trail, lay mines in their path, and bait them to go after you. Once they closed to within 50 GUs, you simply manual det the mines, and the blast (remember.. 8 x AWM) will instagib them.
Placing them at gate exit points.
You can kill the smaller ships with a full release (that's 3 x salvos for you), and provided they were all buffed with 8 X AWMs. Anything dessie or below stand a good chance to be instagibbed. You would damage cruisers moderately, and do little to dreads or stations.
But in the heat of battle, no one would see you scoot off to the gate and go off to the other side to lay mines. As the UGTO/ICC ship would often fight till 15% hull then plot a jump through the gate, you could always steal a kill.
BTW, there IS a fixed exit path through every gate. You'd just have to go through the gate a low speed, stop once you're through and lay your mines their X 3. Then move about 150GUs away and wait for your prey.
IMO, mines weren't OP. They were right where they were supposed to be. Not everyone could use them effectively (besides gate mining), so I don't know why they were supposedly nerfed. Besides, it encouraged the use of Kluth cruisers...
But I suppose if a certain legal tactic irritated a group of users enough, it would eventually be nerfed or declared illegal. Has always been the case in any online game.
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Forger of Destiny
Chief Marshal
We Kick Arse
Joined: October 10, 2009
Posts: 826
| Posted: 2012-07-27 05:10
back then (before 1.6) mine launchers launched only >1< mine per activation (thats 5 mines per 10 to 15 seconds for the v1.5 scarab)
and, if i can remember correctly, the limit on number of mines a ship could drop was 2 or 3, same as now (ugto minelayers currently drop 2 minestrips of 8 mines per activation).
the "legal" tactical minelayers could not hope to have an enemy collide in their mine fields (if you could call 6 mines a minefield). and the 'illegal' minelayers could focus the power of those 6 destructive mines at chokepoints (the exit of a jumpgate, as kenny said)
so the number of mines dropped per activation got increased 5-fold, and damage per mine decreased 5-fold. that way, in-combat minelayers would have better chance of damaging small ships. but the "illegal" tactics still work.
if i were you, i would team up with other minelayers (2 frigates for example) and team-spam an enemy ship with mines. 48 EMP, 54 TN and 45 AM mines are a force to be rekkoned with. for gate-mining, do it the way 3 kennies would have done it. 1 minefield would damage the armor, and the other 2 fields would bring a dread's hull down 15%.
or just dont use minelayers. they are edge and super-tactical ships, plus they havent had much attention in a long time given the more iimportant updates at present.
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Hakketak
Grand Admiral
Joined: March 24, 2009
Posts: 301
| Posted: 2012-07-28 04:44
a minelayer is a ship that is different in tactics from a combat ship, or an assault ship. just like the carrier is different from the missle ship. I like different ships, different tactics from time to time. Yes it makes it hard to come up with a perfect balance, but doesnt balance also rely on what players play what faction? I think minelayer ships should always stay a part of darkspace.
Now, for the flashback: hmmm jummy food in my tummy times. at the time there was rank limit for for players who didnt pay, so the scarab was main ship. attacking the group of UGTO, trying to dodge ping to keep element of suprise was hard, but i made it, got into position, drop mines, jump 1K gu out and remote detonate! end result was dead supply ship and 2 dreads who almost lost an armor layer. Turn the scarab around and movin in for the 2nd strike.
the key with minelayers was persistance, just like any other ship. I could also spawn a parasite or a claw and shoot the UGTO fleet with that. just the minelayer is good at hitting a group of people in a tight formation. And its indiscriminate hehe, like: laying a ring of mines on the back armor of a dread, and there just happen to be a supply near that position as well  The power of mines is versus groups of people, not just 1 person. against 1 person u are better off with one of the other classes (combat, assault, etc)
Indeed the mines dmg got split up by 3, but u drop 3x more mines. Seems they only purpose for that is to make it harder to pd em, so that the minelayer has some time to get out. also, the position of the mines is about 7x wider since there are 3 mines next to eachother with a small space in between, so there is bigger chance a ship flies into em so u get the maximum damage out of it. I dont think mines where nerfed, i think shield and armor has been rebalanced but the weapons havent jet.
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GunsOfHonor
Fleet Admiral
Joined: July 31, 2011
Posts: 191
| Posted: 2012-07-28 10:01
Ima say this again........... REMOVE THE MINE DROP LIMIT.. plz 
thats the only thing wrong.
Maybe make mines have a Mini ecm making you HAVE TO HAVE ECCM to see
Also if you mine a gate and then go through the gate do your mines Self Destruct i used to do that all the time i ran mines, but everytime i did that my mine cap was off and i could drop again so... i assumed they SD'd
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Mylith
Grand Admiral
Faster than Light
Joined: July 19, 2011
Posts: 507
From: Hivarin, CD+36*15693
| Posted: 2012-07-28 11:10
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On 2012-07-28 04:44, Hakketak {the pest} wrote:
the key with minelayers was persistance, just like any other ship.
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Stop making me obligated to use ships I don't want to! 
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Brutality
Marshal
Joined: May 25, 2009
Posts: 659
From: Alaska, USA
| Posted: 2012-07-28 14:07
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On 2012-07-28 10:01, Infinity *CO* wrote:
Ima say this again........... REMOVE THE MINE DROP LIMIT.. plz
thats the only thing wrong.
Maybe make mines have a Mini ecm making you HAVE TO HAVE ECCM to see
Also if you mine a gate and then go through the gate do your mines Self Destruct i used to do that all the time i ran mines, but everytime i did that my mine cap was off and i could drop again so... i assumed they SD'd
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Problem with that my friend, is server load. It would be really easy to intentionally lag the server by grabbing a bunch of minelayers and dropping mines everywere. I believe thats why there is a drop limit, not just for balance.
[ This Message was edited by: Brutality on 2012-07-28 18:03 ]
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Xavier I. Agamemnon
Grand Admiral
Exathra Alliance Fleet
Joined: October 12, 2010
Posts: 357
From: Babylon5
| Posted: 2012-07-28 18:33
really you are still doing this :/
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-07-28 22:25
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On 2012-07-28 11:10, Persistance *CO* wrote:
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On 2012-07-28 04:44, Hakketak {the pest} wrote:
the key with minelayers was persistance, just like any other ship.
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Stop making me obligated to use ships I don't want to!
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You'd have to switch yr fleet to Kluth.
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NoBoDx
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 784
From: Germany / NRW
| Posted: 2012-07-29 03:31
http://darkspace.uservoice.com/forums/154971-general/suggestions/3035348-change-mines-to-a-aoe-field
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GunsOfHonor
Fleet Admiral
Joined: July 31, 2011
Posts: 191
| Posted: 2012-07-31 11:47
[ This Message was edited by: Infinity *CO* on 2012-08-12 19:20 ]
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Mylith
Grand Admiral
Faster than Light
Joined: July 19, 2011
Posts: 507
From: Hivarin, CD+36*15693
| Posted: 2012-07-31 15:37
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On 2012-07-31 11:47, Infinity *CO* wrote:
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On 2012-07-28 14:07, Brutality *XO* wrote:
Quote:
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On 2012-07-28 10:01, Infinity *CO* wrote:
Ima say this again........... REMOVE THE MINE DROP LIMIT.. plz
thats the only thing wrong.
Maybe make mines have a Mini ecm making you HAVE TO HAVE ECCM to see
Also if you mine a gate and then go through the gate do your mines Self Destruct i used to do that all the time i ran mines, but everytime i did that my mine cap was off and i could drop again so... i assumed they SD'd
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Problem with that my friend, is server load. It would be really easy to intentionally lag the server by grabbing a bunch of minelayers and dropping mines everywere. I believe thats why there is a drop limit, not just for balance.
[ This Message was edited by: Brutality on 2012-07-28 18:03 ]
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Never had i heard that it lags the system i was always told by dev's that it was do to people getting really good and dumping tons. which wouldnt be that much of a problem now. with so little people
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But dumping tons of mines would still lag the server.
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