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ON: Damage Per Second and Why You Should Worry about the Bomb |
Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Raven Warriors
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
|  Posted: 2012-06-13 09:27
So, here's the deal. Lately there has been quite a bit of talk about damage and how it is given and taken and the entire relativity of the situation.
I feel almost like there is a fundamental misunderstanding about what Burst Damage is and what Damage Per Second is.
Despite how blatantly obvious their descriptions are.
So here is the deal, damage per second is exactly what it says on the tin: It is the damage you do, assuming every shot hits with 100% accuracy, every single second.
This means if you spacebar mash every weapon on your ship on a target, and every shot hits over a period of ten seconds, you will be achieving 100% DPS.
Some weapons are designed around this, torpedos and cannons in particular. They rely on the fact that you hit often, not that you hit hard. This brings the fundamental point that some weapons are better for some situations than others.
A weapon that is designed around doing high DPS will not be effective if it does not hit.
You would think this is glaringly obvious, but its just not clicking.
Firing a cannon against a scout is going to give you very poor DPS because you aren't going to hit very often. This is compared to a Beam weapon which always hits, and thus always does 100% DPS as long as the target is in range.
Now, when I say some weapons are designed around damage per second as a positive, the idea you are trying to get across is this weapon fires more often, but relies on accuracy to achieve its full potential, this is to limit the effect of one weapon being better than all others. Torpedos have incredible DPS for the amount of energy they cost to use, but they have horrible accuracy, so they have limited amount of use.
Onward, to burst damage. Or rather more appropriately, volley damage. These are two very important distinctions that everyone should know.
In a properly designed game, you will have weapons that are high DPS, in which a weapon relies on a steady stream of accurate shots to do optimum damage, and volley damage, which does less DPS, but relies on doing a large amount of damage at once.
There are a variety of factors in which one is advantageous over another. Whether it be energy cost, the regen of the armor, etc. The thing is, different weapons are designed with different ways of doing damage in mind.
Missiles, for example, are a great example of volley damage. They are designed around doing a huge amount of damage at once at the cost of great energy, but this sort of damage mitigates high regen rate armor, which can't keep up with it.
But then you also have cannons, which have lower energy requirements and allow you to fire longer, and have much better accuracy per range. These become more effective the longer the battle goes on. This because weapons that rely more on volley damage will burn that energy faster than it will regen, while cannons will keep firing long after that energy is gone.
Its important to understand this, because then you begin to realize in which situations a particular weapon is more effective.
You want high volley damage vs. any Kluth. Against an EAD, a high DPS ship will win the day easily (and since ICC weapons are great for this, they have a good advantage there. Keep some notes there buddy.)
This entirely player experience here folks, with a little Dev knowledge to go with it. I may be wrong on some specifics, but the point stands : Know how to do damage and when, it could save your life.
-Ent
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Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
| Posted: 2012-06-13 11:08
I understand the concept clearly.
The thing is, newbies on ICC and UGTO are restricted to mostly DPS weapons, and don't really have any non-missile volley weapons.
ICC doesn't even get a ship with high volley damage until the Assault Cruiser.
UGTO does at least have the assault destroyer.
As a newbie, I would have loved to have something like the Nymph to better combat the kluth dreads always sneaking around.
The high endurance of the cannons just never had a chance to shine, and there was no alternative.
[ This Message was edited by: Fluttershy on 2012-06-13 11:12 ]
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GunsOfHonor
Fleet Admiral
Joined: July 31, 2011
Posts: 191
| Posted: 2012-06-13 18:58
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On 2012-06-13 11:08, Fluttershy wrote:
I understand the concept clearly.
The thing is, newbies on ICC and UGTO are restricted to mostly DPS weapons, and don't really have any non-missile volley weapons.
ICC doesn't even get a ship with high volley damage until the Assault Cruiser.
UGTO does at least have the assault destroyer.
As a newbie, I would have loved to have something like the Nymph to better combat the kluth dreads always sneaking around.
The high endurance of the cannons just never had a chance to shine, and there was no alternative.
[ This Message was edited by: Fluttershy on 2012-06-13 11:12 ]
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ICC isnt supposed to have have a all out in your face ship. we specialize in Long distance stealth tactics not the ugto brute force tactic
the Combat Destroyer is great as this for its ability to meanuvear and pack a punch. understand Flutter you post on nearly every topic with a suggestion that makes all the factions the same basically ICC-are for range and stealth, UGTO-In your face lets throw down, Kluth-HELLO GOODBYE
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Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
| Posted: 2012-06-13 19:09
Brute force is the only thing that works against the K'Luth if you hope to accomplish anything meaningful in the brief amount of time that you're actually able to hit them.
The newbie ICC ships, save for the Assault Cruiser, are all built for giving supporting fire over a long period of time.
The K'Luth, being able to cloak and repair hull, can mostly negate light supporting fire.
I've gone into battle with the K'luth and get out with barely more than 20 prestige because the cannons can't do anything in the short time given.
I've gone in close to use the 4x torpedoes and lasers to try and suicidally deal as much damage as possible and it's still laughable.
[ This Message was edited by: Fluttershy on 2012-06-13 19:12 ]
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Raven Warriors
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2012-06-13 20:19
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On 2012-06-13 19:09, Fluttershy wrote:
Brute force is the only thing that works against the K'Luth if you hope to accomplish anything meaningful in the brief amount of time that you're actually able to hit them.
The newbie ICC ships, save for the Assault Cruiser, are all built for giving supporting fire over a long period of time.
The K'Luth, being able to cloak and repair hull, can mostly negate light supporting fire.
I've gone into battle with the K'luth and get out with barely more than 20 prestige because the cannons can't do anything in the short time given.
I've gone in close to use the 4x torpedoes and lasers to try and suicidally deal as much damage as possible and it's still laughable.
[ This Message was edited by: Fluttershy on 2012-06-13 19:12 ]
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No, defense also works against Kluth, because you have a lot of it.
You can keep Kluth uncloaked longer with ECCM and beacons.
And no faction has a high volley ship setup for smaller ships against bigger ships, I don't see why in the world human ships should get an exception against Kluth dreads.
You know whats good against a Kluth dread? The same things that are good against human dreads. Dreads are for dreads. Dreads are for dreads.
If you're in a smaller ship right now, and you expect to be able to take down a Dread except with an incredible amount of skill, you're not going to.
The DPS of smaller ships is actually pretty high.. but thats per second. And dreads have lots and lots and lots of HP. Its not going to do any good for a small ship.
The DPS of small ships is fine, if you use them for their intended purpose, which isn't to try to hunt down a hulking death machine.
-Ent
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Ray[OU]
Marshal
Joined: December 07, 2010
Posts: 189
From: Some where in deep space, From another galaxy. [Origin Unknown]
| Posted: 2012-06-13 20:22
Quote:
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On 2012-06-13 19:09, Fluttershy wrote:
Brute force is the only thing that works against the K'Luth if you hope to accomplish anything meaningful in the brief amount of time that you're actually able to hit them.
The newbie ICC ships, save for the Assault Cruiser, are all built for giving supporting fire over a long period of time.
The K'Luth, being able to cloak and repair hull, can mostly negate light supporting fire.
I've gone into battle with the K'luth and get out with barely more than 20 prestige because the cannons can't do anything in the short time given.
I've gone in close to use the 4x torpedoes and lasers to try and suicidally deal as much damage as possible and it's still laughable.
[ This Message was edited by: Fluttershy on 2012-06-13 19:12 ]
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Cuz your doing it wrong!
lol trolling. Best noob ship on ICC is the ICC combat dessy once you have it you can get to VA quick with it IF you know how to fly it CORRECTLY.(Doesnt take much time to figue it out if you have watch some SYFY)
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Demorian
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: October 06, 2001
Posts: 3406
From: Charlotte, North Carolina
| Posted: 2012-06-13 21:25
Someone needs to shrink their signature before they get slapped in the face by a cranky retired moderator.
-Dem
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Demorian
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: October 06, 2001
Posts: 3406
From: Charlotte, North Carolina
| Posted: 2012-06-13 21:26
Hey, that was quick.
-Dem
PS. Still got it. chickachickaaaa
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2012-06-13 22:24
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On 2012-06-13 21:26, Demorian wrote:
PS. Still got it. chickachickaaaa
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[ This Message was edited by: Fattierob on 2012-06-13 22:32 ]
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Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
| Posted: 2012-06-13 22:47
So if there's only one other person on and they can fly a dread, but you can only fly a destroyer, you should just log off and try again tomorrow?
I really do understand the role of a smaller ship, I just don't think our current player numbers really let someone who's forced to fly one really be a significant help.
If your enemy spams sup stats, and all you got are noobs in frigates and destroyers. GG, checkmate on the first move. You can have more players but if they're all noobs still GG, you're just gonna get swatted out of the air by an eventual stray harpex while they repair any and all damage you inflict.
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2012-06-13 23:47
After this info , playing eve wont be hard as much as before.Thanks ent!
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Raven Warriors
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2012-06-14 02:41
Quote:
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On 2012-06-13 22:47, Fluttershy wrote:
So if there's only one other person on and they can fly a dread, but you can only fly a destroyer, you should just log off and try again tomorrow?
I really do understand the role of a smaller ship, I just don't think our current player numbers really let someone who's forced to fly one really be a significant help.
If your enemy spams sup stats, and all you got are noobs in frigates and destroyers. GG, checkmate on the first move. You can have more players but if they're all noobs still GG, you're just gonna get swatted out of the air by an eventual stray harpex while they repair any and all damage you inflict.
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Well, yes. In the current system anyways.
I'm not saying its right - its not one I personally agree with, but that is the way the mechanics work right now. However, I have been able to take on Dreads in Destroyers, so its not entirely impossible. It just takes a great deal of ability and luck.
However, you have entirely derailed the entire point of the post. It is about how damage is inflicted mechanically, and it has absolutely nothing to do with class balance at this point. If you have class grievences, thats what a new post is for. Please try to remain on topic.
-Ent
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Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
| Posted: 2012-06-14 10:14
Well, this thread is about the different mechanics of dealing damage, and what I'm trying to say is that new players have their options of combat ships limited to DPS and easily PDable missile ships.
While it's true that, normally, the larger ships are at the mercy of smaller ones. The fact remains that due to the low damage output of smaller ships, they typically have ample time to retreat.
Dreads fear dreads because they can kill you before you are able to charge your jump drive, get outside of an interdictor, kill an interdictor, retreat to the back of your allies, etc.
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Flux Capacitor
Marshal
Joined: July 30, 2010
Posts: 305
From: the place
| Posted: 2012-06-14 15:57
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On 2012-06-13 23:47, Pakhos[+R] wrote:
After this info , playing eve wont be hard as much as before.Thanks ent!
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LOL pakhos, good to see u still around once in a while:)
fun stuff
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2012-06-15 03:55
Quote:
| On 2012-06-13 09:27, Enterprise wrote:
Why You Should Worry about the Bomb |
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I don't see anything in the essay mentioning about the bomb.
Why should I worry about the bomb?
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