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Anything that's not a dread isn't a "real ship"? |
Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
|  Posted: 2012-05-07 02:33
These are not my words, but seeing as I've heard this said from several higher ranking players with more play time, it must be true. Right?
But why is this? Why do several people see dreads as a "real ship" and everything else is just junk?
Just ask anyone who commonly flies a dread how many damns they give if a pack of players in frigates and scouts attacks them.
I'm sure will say something to the effect of "Meh, it's no big deal, I'll just jump to a depot planet and they'll never get past my armor."
In the time that you take to even get close to hulling a dread while utilizing a small ship designed to engage larger targets, it will jump to safety and repair faster than a gang of these 3-4 smaller ships can damage.
Each ship, while they may vary in size, rank, and resource cost, all require the most valuable resource of all: a human player.
This is why it's very problematic when all lower classed ships are rendered useless, or just very ineffective against larger ships.
It's this fact that the majority of players will gravitate to a dread or station.
They're far better at what they need to be better at (killing everything, and being hard to kill), and more vulnerable to things that are easily compensated for (small ships they can't hit, but don't deal enough damage to be a serious threat).
I know that there has been situations where stealth vettes or talons took down a dread, but seriously... good luck convincing enough players to fly a pack with you.
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Forger of Destiny
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We Kick Arse
Joined: October 10, 2009
Posts: 826
| Posted: 2012-05-07 03:17
tactics
tactics
tactics
tactics
tactics
tactics
tactics
tactics for win.
killing enemy loners in 4 easy steps!
1. don' t let them run. use fighter spam to stop docking, interdictors to prevent jumpdrive usage.
2. cut off all support. WH their ships away from their planets to your planets. while they struggle to come back alive, bomb planet depots/sensor bases/defence bases to ground.
3. use battle-appropriate ships. assault ships vs missile/fighter ships, gunships vs assault ships, missile/fighter ships vs gunships, platforms vs stations (we can hope, right?)
4. disable enemy ships. board their ships with infantry - they will fight enemy infantry or disable devices onboard. use EMP weapons, ELF drain weapons, flux weapons, (insert ICC device which deals subsystems damage).
in optimal conditions, this can take 2-4 minutes.
fluttershy (and all those veteran DS bronies out there who agree to original post) ought to join FTL or GTN or END or [Admin] to get straightened out and trained to
fluttershy why do you always end up talking to the wrong veterans ?
wrong veterans why do you always lose hope that DS will not get better (given under condition that dear devs are cared for and given humane attention) ?
[ This Message was edited by: Toby D Syded on 2012-05-07 04:12 ]
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Flux Capacitor
Marshal
Joined: July 30, 2010
Posts: 305
From: the place
| Posted: 2012-05-07 03:20
i agree small ships kick ass but u need several of em to actually kill a player. the big trouble is: yes a pack of 4 corvettes can kill a dread...but so does a pack of 4 EAD. The whole difference is that u know u kill the enemy player before it jumps, when u all using dreads.
another scenario: 3 dessies and a dictor cruiser instead of 4 dreads. Now u got the firepower to kill an enemy dread...if its alone. But what if the enemy also got 4 players? it will require good point jumping by the dessie/dictor party to win the battle but they will still win. Where the alternative is to jump the enemy with same class dreads.
So up to now 3 dessies and a dictor is better then 4 dreads, but what happens if you fight luth? 3 destroyers blind firing particle cannons all over the place while trying to keep distance of targets. luth dreads waiting till one gets within 200 gu, uncloacks, alpha, then cloaks again. Luth dread party of 4 will definetly win.
The reason of ppl using dreads is to counter kluth dreads. without luth presence scouts, destroyers, frigates they all get used. 4 vs 4 ur better of with 4 ead then a dictor and 3 dessies...to bad people forget the covert-ops scout, its something that can force enemy luth to : QQ, jump out, or log. like ugto and icc can find it hard to fight luth dreads, luth dreads find it hard to beat enemy covert ops scout. and even if they do its unrewarding.
I suggest that whenever someone is fighting luth with some friends, u should bring a covert-ops scout. this will force luth to bring a scout hunter, then the hunams can bring a scout protector, etc etc and once again small ships can be flown again.
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Iwancoppa
Fleet Admiral
Joined: November 15, 2008
Posts: 709
| Posted: 2012-05-07 04:32
when your playing ICC, it becomes
'Anything that's not a cruiser isn't a "real ship"?'
ooooh boy, ICC cruisers. because the dreds suck.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2012-05-07 04:37
Sometimes the easy answer eludes all.
People fly them because they are at the top of the tier. They fly them because they earned them. Show me the dessie or vette that a GA gets. Nope, its dreads and stats at that level.
As far as luth dreads, boy, sure wish we had only 3 like before. Sure wish our smaller ships were what they used to be. You know, when we flew many dessies and cruisers, and few dreads? Then came .483.
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Fluttershy
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Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
| Posted: 2012-05-07 04:43
This is all very helpful advice, thank you. Don't get angry though, this isn't QQ, just... kinda pointing out an issue and allowing some discussion of it.
As you know, kluth basically force a team to fly dreads, or at least that seems to be the simplest solution.
I have tried flying covert ops scouts against the kluth, there were 3 of us all covering each other with ECM.
The K'luth got wise, though, all they had to do is get really close and they could target us regardless, and seeing as they cloak, they only uncloaked when close.
Overall, though, it was a very unrewarding experience for both sides.
For the covert scouts because we could hardly scratch them, and for the siphons and mandibles because we would jump before they could do any damage.
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Flux Capacitor
Marshal
Joined: July 30, 2010
Posts: 305
From: the place
| Posted: 2012-05-07 05:16
Quote:
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On 2012-05-07 04:43, Fluttershy wrote:
I have tried flying covert ops scouts against the kluth, there were 3 of us all covering each other with ECM.
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ecm urself against luth that cloak hehe...ur only helping them. theres more to it but not gonna tell you everything. as toby wan kenobi said somethings you gotta find out first.
also, with the limited garage space people dont want to waste it on a rarely used low level ship. i myself scrap enhanced ships sometimes to spawn a ship to have a little rofl or 2.
[ This Message was edited by: Bang! on 2012-05-07 05:20 ]
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Fluttershy
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Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
| Posted: 2012-05-07 05:51
ECM to mask yourself, and use beacons to raise their signature. each beacon adds 10 sig, with a max of 3
I don't see what more there was to it, some of us had EMP cannons to try and disable their cloak when one of the other ships got their armor down.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-05-07 06:13
The way I see it:
1) Dessies and cruisers need their firepower tweaked upwards.
2) New classes/sub-types of dessies/cruisers equipped towards killing stations and dreads (but poor against their own kind) need to be introduced
3) Missiles need to be more manueverable and/or accurate AND more powerful too.
4) Torps need to move faster
5) PD effectiveness shd be reduced by 1/3
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1 and 2 is pretty self-explanatory.
3 and 4 would fit in well with 1 and 2, because right now dreads can actually dodge some missiles and any torp. But the smaller, more agile ships won't be affected as much.
5, together with 2 and 3 will make slow, ponderous ships more vulnerable to missile fire. Do the math. Remember when Harrier Frigs were the rage? Don't let dread pilots' QQ take it down again.
Other than that, as Toby Jabronie put it.... TACTICS.
And yes, I have to go with Az when he said that Kluth small ships need to have more firepower. If my Claw, Scale or Parasite were like what he said about the pre 1.5x versions, I'd stick inside one too.
Weapons like AM mines were nerfed because Human Dread and Station pilots complained about their effectiveness versus their ships. You leave Kluth players no choice but to hop into their dreads exclusively.
So think about the cause and effect the next time you QQ.
Personally, I think you lot QQ too much (some of you more than others). And I think that sometimes the devs take some of you more seriously than you actually deserve.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2012-05-07 06:36 ]
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Raven Warriors
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2012-05-07 06:47
One of the rare times I actually agree with Fluttershy. Whats wrong with this world.
Anyways. Just for the record, speaking as a player, not a Dev. Here's thing: Theres plenty of good reasons why there is Dreadspace. Mostly because any other kind of space didn't work and the amount of complaints wasn't worth it. The amount of people that don't like Dreads being all-powerful is very very small.
As disheartening as it is to me, the truth is the game just works better this way. I don't actually feel like going into the complexities and mechanics of why Dreadspace works because it requires a huge history lesson and I've gone over it far too many times to have the willpower to do it again.
For older players, yes, being in a Dreadnaught you can literally laugh at a few cruisers trying to attack you. Because a smart player stays with friends.. who are also with Dreads. Smaller ships just don't have the power to break through the armor of bigger ships fast enough before even glancing firepower from a Dread forces a retreat. Its not worth the pain, and its not worth the gain (the prestige gain from smaller ships is laughably low compared to Dreads).
No amount of tactics in the world matters. A single interdictor as escort makes smaller ships just flies in a net.
If any tactic actually worked, it would be used. For a while missles were strong enough on our trusty Missle Frigates of the various factions to actually break through the armor of larger ships, even with depot spamming. And so they got nerfed to hell, at least on smaller ships because of it. Want to know why?
Because even with tactics that could be used to counter it, even with the fact that doing so was laughably easy, the thing is, people getting slaughtered in Dreads from these small ships were willing to die and quit before flying a cruiser. It wasn't very fun for them, and it was deemed unacceptable because of the aforementioned entitlement to rank, however debatable it is that anyone actually deserves it.
So I will tell you this, even if you manage to find a way to use small ships effectively like this, chances are the rage would force a nerf check.
While I would love there to be more variety in the game, with people flying different ships and there being an actual feel to fleet combat rather than grab dread -> press spacebar -> repeat, there is no incentive to do so, and Dreadnaught players will make sure there never is.
I would strongly argue for a more realistic approach, such as making smaller ships easier to fly and larger ships more difficult (skill-based).
-Ent
[ This Message was edited by: Enterprise on 2012-05-07 07:00 ]
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Fluttershy
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Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
| Posted: 2012-05-07 07:04
@Kenny
I'm not sure if increasing missile damage and tracking would necessarily be a good thing.
If a missile has exceptional tracking, it should do very little damage. Otherwise it'll be swatting small ships right out of the sky.
The heavy missiles could perhaps be made to do more damage, but as a result, they should have very poor tracking, so that they're only well suited for hitting mostly stationary targets.
Ever see a harpex volley swat a dessie in one hit from 300gu's, yet Anti Radar missiles can't even hit a damned cruiser from 900?
@Ent
Clearly the solution here is to reverse the order of ranks.
Starting at Midshipman, you get stations, followed by dreads, cruisers, and so on.
The last ship to be acquired will be the all-powerful SCOUT!
[ This Message was edited by: Fluttershy on 2012-05-07 07:40 ]
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Mylith
Grand Admiral
Faster than Light
Joined: July 19, 2011
Posts: 507
From: Hivarin, CD+36*15693
| Posted: 2012-05-07 07:41
Quote:
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On 2012-05-07 04:43, Fluttershy wrote:
I have tried flying covert ops scouts against the kluth, there were 3 of us all covering each other with ECM.
The K'luth got wise, though, all they had to do is get really close and they could target us regardless, and seeing as they cloak, they only uncloaked when close.
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Ever tried flying border cruisers+ECM? Even Doran logged 
Quote:
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On 2012-05-07 03:17, Toby D Syded wrote:
tactics
tactics
tactics
tactics
tactics
tactics
tactics
tactics for win.
killing enemy loners in 4 easy steps!
1. don' t let them run. use fighter spam to stop docking, interdictors to prevent jumpdrive usage.
2. cut off all support. WH their ships away from their planets to your planets. while they struggle to come back alive, bomb planet depots/sensor bases/defence bases to ground.
3. use battle-appropriate ships. assault ships vs missile/fighter ships, gunships vs assault ships, missile/fighter ships vs gunships, platforms vs stations (we can hope, right?)
4. disable enemy ships. board their ships with infantry - they will fight enemy infantry or disable devices onboard. use EMP weapons, ELF drain weapons, flux weapons, (insert ICC device which deals subsystems damage).
in optimal conditions, this can take 2-4 minutes.
fluttershy (and all those veteran DS bronies out there who agree to original post) ought to join FTL or GTN or END or [Admin] to get straightened out and trained to
fluttershy why do you always end up talking to the wrong veterans ?
wrong veterans why do you always lose hope that DS will not get better (given under condition that dear devs are cared for and given humane attention) ?
[ This Message was edited by: Persistance on 2012-05-07 07:52 ]
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<3
Quote:
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On 2012-05-07 03:17, Toby D Syded wrote:
given humane attention) ?
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-05-07 08:53
@Ent:
A good question would be why shd the Devs bend over to QQ rage from the dread crowd? Anyway, with most of the vets n Huggies gone from the game lately, perhaps now is the time to make small ships like the MF highly effective once again.
The game is going thru various tweaks and changes for better balance, but it's always looking at it between the factions. Perhaps it's time to step back and look at it vertically instead of laterally.
Besides that, if and when a complex economy is ever reintro'ed, perhaps making ships cost something more to spawn, even if it's from your own garage, might shape the mix of ships in the MV.
But probably the easiest and most immediate way you can achieve any effect would be to tweak some of the existing weaps, or intro new weaps, and fit them on new classes of small ships to equip them specifically as capital ship killers.
@Flut
No I didn't mean making missiles super-manueverable. Just make them turn fast enough to track cruisers and above to more effect. And reduce PD chance to kill by another 33%. Right now, dread and their high beam count render missile attacks useless. And small ships can't approach them enough to use cannons without a big chance of biting it.
Faster, more accurate, more powerful missiles. Faster movin torps. Less effective PD.
Throw in more missile/torp frigs and dessies. Should be interesting.
But all the same that shouldn't mean that small ships should have an easy time against capships. They should just e equipped to give them a better fighting chance.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Raven Warriors
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2012-05-07 09:12
Quote:
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On 2012-05-07 08:53, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
@Ent:
A good question would be why shd the Devs bend over to QQ rage from the dread crowd? Anyway, with most of the vets n Huggies gone from the game lately, perhaps now is the time to make small ships like the MF highly effective once again.
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If the game isn't fun for the majority, find what makes it fun. Do that.
I wouldn't suggest amping up the damage of any ship really. Or nerfing armor.
One of my biggest gripes is how little movement itself is important in combat, but never actually addressed.
The thing is, I've played this game for too long. I will tell you right now, that movement doesn't make a whole lot of sense, it never has even if it has slightly gotten better over time.
The biggest, most important part of any of the skill in Darkspace (not to be confused with knowledge), is that positioning and movement are a very core part of what measures a good pilot.
The bad part is, and I will stress this as heavily as possible, Dreadnaughts do not fly like Dreadnaughts. They do not feel like big ships. They feel like Cruisers with more weapons.
I can jump too fast, I can move too fast, I can turn too fast.
On the other hand, Cruisers feel like tons. The visual does not match with the actual. Even scouts feel sluggish.
The movement itself does not match with the class - small ships feel too slow, too bulky. Big ships feel too fluid, too easy to handle.
I personally think plenty of the divide between smaller ships and larger ships could be fixed with something as simple as making Dreadnaughts feel more like Dreadnaughts when you move them, and Scouts feel more like Scouts.
It feels like every ship is a capital ship, but only the Dread actually has the firepower to match it.
It would be my personal recommednation to vastly increase the speed and manueverability of smaller ships, and massively reduce the turn rate, accelaration, and top speed of high end ships. The jump from cruiser to Dread top speed wise alone should make it clear how the firepower just doesn't match up.
Dreadnaughts I think, could become more skill based if it relied more heavily on positioning. They have the range to defend themselves, but also obvious blindspots. The problem with those is that its impossible to take advantage of. Dreadnaughts are too easy to position for effect.
Alternatively, Cruisers and below feel too slow and bulky. Dodging at combat range even for me proves difficult and timing is beyond cruicial, even a few hits means retreat. A faster, more able small combat force would bring the value of movement to the game, which is sorely lacking.
There is very, very little difference in jump times between classes, with the most powerful ships (except for the station which I feel is the only properly balanced class), capable of making jumps very quickly.
We should give back the one advantage that small ships deserve, and that is to be where they need to be quickly, to be able to spot and take advantage of blind spots, that actual skill becomes a factor. And that is more important than any number crunching.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2012-05-07 11:50
Quote:
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On 2012-05-07 09:12, Enterprise wrote:
One of my biggest gripes is how little movement itself is important in combat, but never actually addressed.
The thing is, I've played this game for too long. I will tell you right now, that movement doesn't make a whole lot of sense, it never has even if it has slightly gotten better over time.
The biggest, most important part of any of the skill in Darkspace (not to be confused with knowledge), is that positioning and movement are a very core part of what measures a good pilot.
The bad part is, and I will stress this as heavily as possible, Dreadnaughts do not fly like Dreadnaughts. They do not feel like big ships. They feel like Cruisers with more weapons.
I can jump too fast, I can move too fast, I can turn too fast.
On the other hand, Cruisers feel like tons. The visual does not match with the actual. Even scouts feel sluggish.
The movement itself does not match with the class - small ships feel too slow, too bulky. Big ships feel too fluid, too easy to handle.
I personally think plenty of the divide between smaller ships and larger ships could be fixed with something as simple as making Dreadnaughts feel more like Dreadnaughts when you move them, and Scouts feel more like Scouts.
It feels like every ship is a capital ship, but only the Dread actually has the firepower to match it.
It would be my personal recommednation to vastly increase the speed and manueverability of smaller ships, and massively reduce the turn rate, accelaration, and top speed of high end ships. The jump from cruiser to Dread top speed wise alone should make it clear how the firepower just doesn't match up.
Dreadnaughts I think, could become more skill based if it relied more heavily on positioning. They have the range to defend themselves, but also obvious blindspots. The problem with those is that its impossible to take advantage of. Dreadnaughts are too easy to position for effect.
Alternatively, Cruisers and below feel too slow and bulky. Dodging at combat range even for me proves difficult and timing is beyond cruicial, even a few hits means retreat. A faster, more able small combat force would bring the value of movement to the game, which is sorely lacking.
There is very, very little difference in jump times between classes, with the most powerful ships (except for the station which I feel is the only properly balanced class), capable of making jumps very quickly.
We should give back the one advantage that small ships deserve, and that is to be where they need to be quickly, to be able to spot and take advantage of blind spots, that actual skill becomes a factor. And that is more important than any number crunching.
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You mean something like adding 10 max speed to Scouts and Frigates, 7 to Destroyers, 5 to Cruisers, and increasing turn rate across the board but making mass have a much higher negative impact on turning and acceleration? Something similar to this was mentioned before but it was pretty much ignored aside from a few brick and shroom drivers who cried and whined that it'd make anything smaller than themselves too hard for them to hit.
Right now Scouts are ok, they can dodge pretty good up to 200 GU or so, but Frigates are crap. Too little HP to survive getting hit by anything appreciable and too little maneuverability to dodge very well at ranges they're effective at. Missile/Harrier Frigates being the exception because they're supposed to stay at long ranges and die very quickly if anything gets the drop on them.
Cruisers have just enough firepower to be effective, and can comfortably dodge cannonfire at around 400-500GU, as low as 350 if you really know what you're doing.
Of course, the rework of the size scaling (if it ever gets finished) will wreck what little advantage smaller ships have. Just look at the ICC Destroyers for an example.
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