| Author |
Defy UGTO Combat Log |
CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
|  Posted: 2011-08-25 18:34
Day one
Spawned some ships as ugto.
Assault Destroyer- reflective armor
Gunboat Destroyer- ablative armor.
Interdictor-ablative armor
Missile Cruiser- Ablative armor
Picket destroyer- ablative armor
Harrier Frigate-ablative armor
Spawned into luyten whit my assault destroyer. Linked up with PB on sight where I picked a wing “silver” and defended him against AI, Two RSM members, and Thane. Most engagements went smoothly. Dreads mostly ignored me. A krill shot at my once primary over a station and two EAD’s bearing down on it. It was totally destroyed. I tanked laser fire very well from the krill and easily dodged SI and PSI shots even at 250gu. I was able to open up a large enough gap between me and the krill, that laser fire did not penetrate my single rear plate of armor before I was out of his range.
Later I jumped to wecamp to assist gigga with a couple of ai there. The transport was quickly routed. The parasite cruiser cloaked and moved away before I could get torpedoes to connect. I soon found myself within the damage ring of wecamp and was losing reflective armor at an alarming rate. So, I pulled back. The once cloaked parasite appeared on my nose and gave me a full alpha, I turned to the right and juked the control back to the left in an attempt to take position on his aft. He was able to give me one full alpha to my nose, and one full alpha to my left side. These two shots would have hulled me if I were in a ICC Combat Destroyer. My juke maneuver was a success and I quickly ate away the cruisers rear armor and some of the hull when I noticed a SI hit me in the rear. I spun the camera around to see a RSM siphon within 300gu of my tail. I reacted quickly just as I would have if I were flying a ICC CD. Full throttle, and wiggle the nose left and right. SI and torpedoes screamed past me as I dodged most all of his shots. Then he fired two laser barrages. It, to my surprise, was enough to not only melt away my aft armor, but to kill me as well. I noted that if I had been in a ICC combat destroyer, I would have lived through that engagement as I have many times before.
I had no energy trouble out of my little destroyer, and rarely felt threatened.
END
Day Two
Spawned Battle Cruiser – ablative armor
Had several battles in my gunboat destroyer versus 2-4 ICC. Hit and run tactics. Was able to dodge nearly all incoming fire over 300gu. Managed to single out a lone Heavy Cruiser (WOLF Warmachine), lightly modified to no significant level. Stayed 300 to 500gu off his nose and pelted him with rear cannons for almost ten minutes until I collapsed his shield. No significant damage to my own ship at this time, so I closed to 300gu and started dog fighting him with side and nose barrages. Was able to hull him to 60%, and received only moderate damage myself. No hull damage of my own.
UGTO weapons 10% buff seems reasonable at this time. Also, noted that ablative armor crumples nicely when hit with lasers. In a battle with my BC vs a lone Boarder Cruiser (Mythnar) I mistakenly closed to within 100gu right away. The stock BC with gauss guns was able to hull me and force me to run before I even got his shields down to 60%. My BC was ablative armor moded. The ICC BC was completely stock right down to reactive shields. I also noted that I could dodge all Gauss shots above 400gu.
END
Day Three
Jumped into my Battle cruiser to fight three ICC, mithnar, soulless, and nac. Was unable to close distance on any of them without jumping. Was forced to fly at 15gu or so just to maintain energy reserves to a level at which I could fight back. Was unable to dodge fire as well at slow speed. With this in mind, I switched to my Gunboat Destroyer. With it, I was able to single out soulless for a while. Combat ensued at 500gu with lancing runs (head on, fly by, turn around, repeat). Damage done to my standard armor by soulless was laughable until he would hit with beams. About when I started doing some good damage to him, I was interrupted by mythnar in a strike cruiser. I turned to engage the bigger threat, and managed to get on his rear where I hung out. It took a while, 10 or so alphas, to break his shields before I had to break away due to low hull. I jumped out through a planet indictor to some plats I had set up. Upon healing, I noticed mithnar back at the pirate planet in luyten. I jumped to engage and landed right on his rear. My hud read him at 100% shield 88% armor and 90% hull. I was able to break his shield, and hull him down to 54% according to my hud. All the while, I was being shot at at close range by soulless in his CDessy. The SC broke away and I started to look for my escape point. I noticed zeeland was between me and my supply lines, so I jumped into deep space a distance of 13,000gu from soulless where I could jump through an indictor field to my plats. Soulless followed my first jump but landed too far away to shoot at me. I lined my jump through the friendly indictor to the safety of my platforms, and jumped away.
Much later, I managed to single out soulless again. According to my hud, he was 100% hull, 88% armor, 88% shields. I was able to get him down to 34hull with no significant damage of my own. He jumped away, and I tried to follow but came up short.
A while after this, I spotted mithnar coming through the luyten gate in a escort carrier. I jumped to engage and landed 500gu off his tail. I moved into position undetected, and opened up on his aft at 300gu. I chased him for quite a while, never leaving his tail, and mostly at 150gu. A kluth claw destroyer appeared on my aft just as I broke mithnar’s shields. Confident my armor would hold until I killed mithnar, I opted to continue on target. Mistake… It took the claw three shots to kill me.
END
Conclusions;
Though my adventure was mostly in the world of super enhanced ships and dreadnaughts, I found my stock UGTO ships preformed just fine. Gunboat destroyer is a nasty ships. With nearly the same firepower as a battle cruiser, and more survivability through maneuverability, it was more than a match for both ICC destroyers and cruisers. Ablative armor is outclassed by standard armor in engagements with icc at beam range. Reflective armor melts away nearly as fast as standard armor and generally only can take one more shot than standard armor, a pitiful tradeoff to be weak to kinetic damage. Ablative armor versus ICC at beyond beam range ensures you can take on a fleet of two or three ICC ships, as observed through battle with my gunboat destroyer Vs a combat destroyer, Heavy Cruiser, and strike Cruiser. Standard armor on a gunboat destroyer will ensure it’s a proper challenge for a Combat destroyer and Strike Cruiser combined. Gunboat destroyer Vs a lone Combat destroyer, CD having speed, turning, acceleration, and damage enhancements, the GD comes out far and away the victor. No hull damage suffered. Only marginal armor damage.
Tests of UGTO GD and BC in the 670 hotfix beta showed these two ships far superior to ICC’s CD and HC.
Tests of ICC CD and HC in the 670 hotfix beta showed these two ships are on equal levels with the Kluth SD and PC.
In a lone battle with me in a UGTO GD with standard armor Vs a Kluth stinger destroyer, the GD was far superior to the SD. Exception to this rule is when I would try to get out of beam range rather than turning to fight.
A kluth ship uncloaking on the rear of a ugto ship is far more effective than a kluth ship uncloaking on the rear of a ICC ship. The ugto ship will not make it out of beam range before it is hulled or killed. It is forced to turn and fight at this point. An icc ship can scoot out of beam range only taking at most 50% damage to its defenses. After the ICC ship is out of beam range he is free to turn and engage. The ugto ship will do more damage to the Kluth ship over the duration of its uncloaked time, but the ICC ship will be able to remain on the field longer through its ability to get range on the target. Damage potentials in this way, are close to the same when dealing with kluth.
I regret that all this data is only relevant to small ship combat. I was unable to test dread combat on ugto. Nor do I really know how dread combat fairs on ICC. I can say with the upmost clarity, Dread combat is worlds different than small ship combat. The mechanisms that would balance dread combat, would break Small ship combat. The mechanisms that would balance small ship combat, would break dread combat.
Ending thought;
ICC small ships are equal in combat to Kluth small ships. UGTO small ships are far superior to both.
I hope this helps.
873 press gained
307 ship damage
019 kills
004 deaths
[ This Message was edited by: *XO*Defiance{CM7} on 2011-08-25 18:46 ]
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µOmniVore
Grand Admiral
Joined: September 13, 2006
Posts: 171
| Posted: 2011-08-25 20:21
Why are you not a dev...........???????????????
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Eledore Massis [R33]
Grand Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: May 26, 2002
Posts: 2695
From: tsohlacoLocalhost
| Posted: 2011-08-25 20:57
All i can say, Nicely done defiance.
It difference in how you present a report, but this one is nicely formulated, much better then the one's i make. then again, you presented it to the public so yes had to be touched up for easy reading.
So far i have come to the same result that you have described. but i am reluctant to draw any conclusions.
Until there is enough feedback to discuss your results,
E.M.P.
[edit]No Unicode support 
[ This Message was edited by: Eledore Massis [R33] on 2011-08-25 20:57 ]
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2011-08-25 20:57
Quote:
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On 2011-08-25 20:21, µOmniVore wrote:
Why are you not a dev...........???????????????
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there are 3 reasons.
1-he cant code.
2-he whines alot.
3-jack doesnt like him.
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$yTHe {C?}
Grand Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: September 29, 2002
Posts: 1292
From: Arlington, VA
| Posted: 2011-08-25 21:04
It's me. I am the developer.
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-08-25 21:23
actualy, id like to think me and jack get along well.
why am i not a dev? short answer Tael.
Thanks eledore. 
[ This Message was edited by: *XO*Defiance{CM7} on 2011-08-25 22:19 ]
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-08-25 22:46
Tip.
Always equip full reflective armor on small UGTO ships. U can dodge projectiles and missiles with your speed. But you can't dodge beams.
When a Kluth dread decloaks beside you and opens up. You'll wish you left your ablative at home. 
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-08-25 23:08
you either missed the part, or i did not make it clear enough, that reflective armor only slightly helps out against beams. And is very weak vs kinetic energy. For a small ship, i died in two shots from a siphon, three shots from a parasite or claw no matter what armor i had equiped.
better to go with either ablative, or standard on small ships.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-08-25 23:24
Quote:
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On 2011-08-25 23:08, *XO*Defiance{CM7} wrote:
you either missed the part, or i did not make it clear enough, that reflective armor only slightly helps out against beams. And is very weak vs kinetic energy. For a small ship, i died in two shots from a siphon, three shots from a parasite or claw no matter what armor i had equiped.
better to go with either ablative, or standard on small ships.
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I actually tested that out in my bomber frig and scout. Reflective works better when a Kluth dreads decloak on you. Like I said, you can dodge his PSI and SI fire. But you can't dodge his beams.
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Pantheon
Marshal
Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1789
| Posted: 2011-08-26 06:37
HC > BC in pretty much every test that I've ever seen. Not sure how you think the BC is superior, the HC mauls it completely.
Also, how are UGTO small ships superior to both, if K'Luth ships can easily kill UGTO small ships  ? Not to mention I've easily seen ICC small ships decimate UGTO ones...
Not much solidarity to that conclusion.
Also, there are already plans to lower UGTO armour by 5 to 2.5%.
[ This Message was edited by: Pantheon on 2011-08-26 07:12 ]
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2011-08-26 07:26
I havent found a small (dessie and under) ICC ship that can whip me in an equivelant ugto ship. When I go ICC and try it the other way, I have not found an ICC ship that I can kill an equivelant UGTO ship in, barring the pilot making a mistake.
Scouts, frigates, and dessie, UGTO definately is better.
On the other hand, I have found UGTO to be fairly equal to K'Luth ships in the same class. Very even.
And that's from 3 weeks or so of testing, not 3 days....
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2011-08-26 12:04
I've had much the same results in playing on UGTO, their smaller ships are deadly in the right hands, moreso than equivalent ICC or Kluth ships. The only advantage an ICC small ship has over a UGTO ship of the same type is being able to redirect shields to the rear while getting out of beam range of some Dreadnought that just decloaked or point jumped. Though I have noticed reflective is much better in small ship vs small ship than large ship vs small ship, simply because a Mandible/Siphon does so much damage with beams it's almost a 2 alpha kill against UGTO Destroyers regardless of armor type.
Particle cannons are far superior to rail/gauss at the close ranges you have to be in order to hit anything in small ship combat, falloff is pretty well a non factor when you can't hit anything consistently beyond 300-400 GU. This also includes Cruisers somewhat , I can dodge rail/gauss fire fairly well at 400-450 GU in a stock Battlecruiser.
Defiance has it spot on in that any global changes to balance small ship combat could easily break large ship combat and vice versa. The biggest thing that can be done to balance ICC vs UGTO in small ship combat is either finish the size scaling or abandon it and revert the ICC ships that have been scaled up to their previous size. Having ICC Frigates the size of UGTO Destroyers (oddly enough UGTO Frigates are also nearly the same size as UGTO Destroyers) and ICC Destroyers nearly the size of UGTO Cruisers does make a big difference.
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2011-08-26 13:36
I would say in small ship vs large ship combat ICC have a clear advantage with maneuverability and falloff though.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2011-08-26 14:09
Small vs large UGTO have the advantage of unlimited cannon ammo, falloff is not much of an issue when you can afford to stay at a longer range than your opponent can simply because it doesn't matter how little you hit him, you'll come out ahead regardless when he has to leave to reload ammo even if he hasn't taken a single hit.
I went up against a Strike Cruiser and 2 Combat Dreadnoughts in a Gunboat and stayed around 500-600 GU where falloff really starts to set in, it ended with the SC leaving to go kill AI (I would assume out of boredom because he wasn't hitting me) and the CDs retreating one by one as their shields and most armor was taken out, while I still had some armor left even though I was halfway set up for combat vs luth with standard outside and reflective inside. An ICC Destroyer would have to leave to refill ammo before even hulling one BD regardless of how little damage was taken.
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Iwancoppa
Fleet Admiral
Joined: November 15, 2008
Posts: 709
| Posted: 2011-08-26 15:26
The problem here with ICC is simply that we are a long range faction, yet as the report presented here states, above 300-400gu we can be dodged easily.
I felt this personally yesterday as i was fighting a battle cruiser.
Above ~350gu in the heavy cruiser not a single railgun or torpedo hit.
Thus, what ICC really needs, in my oppinion, is not a damage buff, but a shell speed buff. Like, twice the speed.
This is the same for all cannon weapons, probably.
This is also what im reffering to when i speak of "damage transmission"
ICC have poor damage transmission because above ~350gu they can be dodged.... In a HC I found optimal combat range to be 900-600gu. Therefore, to be truely effective, we have to leave our optimal combat range.
Anyway, good work on this report. It presents alot of data and has some interesting points for discussion..
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