| Author |
Suggestion: Ship size balance |
Phoebuzz
Grand Admiral
Joined: November 17, 2003
Posts: 110
|  Posted: 2011-08-16 14:03
Make all ship size (Scouts to Dreads) generate the same total energy from their engines.
Rationale:
Currently, smaller ships are doubly cursed by having both less firepower, and less energy generation. A destroyer, for example, has roughly half the energy generation of a dread. This means that over a long period of time, a destroyer can only have up to only half the impact on the battle, which in turn makes smaller ship nearly worthless.
By giving all ships the same energy generation from engines, all ships should have the potential to have a similar impact on the battle over time.
Dreads would have an huge energy reserve, huge defense, and an insane ability to convert energy into fire power.
While smaller ship would trade those advantages for more mobility and a smaller ship size.
--Edit:-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2nd attempt to explain the balance paradigm.
Currently when flying a small ship, even when you win, you lose.
Yes, you think small ships can be used effectively.
The real question is:
How effective is a small ship used effectively compared to a dread used effectively.
To answer the question for destroy vs dread:
A destroyer used effectively is only roughly 1/3 as effective as a dread used effectively.
And this is why players that can use both dreads and destroyers effectively will always choose a dread when they try to win a battle.
* For design reasons, smaller ICC ships (particularly cruisers) tend to be more effective than their UGTO and K'luth counterparts.
The goal of the suggestion is to improve the value of smaller ship without actually directly making them stronger through more armor or weapons.
A ship with more energy regeneration won't deal more damage, and won't survive alphas more easily, but more energy regeneration it will allow a good pilot to stick around much longer if they pilot their ship effectively, and thus bridge the gap in firepower through perseverance and attrition.
* I estimate that destroyers are 1/3 as effective as dreads because:
1. Destroyers have only roughly 60% of the energy regeneration of a dread.
2. A smaller ship only advantage over a dread is speed and maneuverability. So a destroyers needs to move to be effective.
Meanwhile dreads can be (and are) used effectively without moving around much (mostly through the jump drive).
Also, dreads have far more weapons, allowing them to convert their energy into firepower far more quickly, which reduces the amount of time they need to stick around or chase enemies, further lowering energy used by their engines.
For this reason I gave a (very arbitrary and vague) ~45% energy loss due to engines for dessies.
3. Dessie and dread weapons have very similar energy efficiency, meaning a dessie with 1/3 a dread's energy available for weapons will deal 1/3 of a dread's damage with that energy.
[ This Message was edited by: Phoebuzz on 2011-08-17 12:22 ]
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Blackjack [DBL]
Grand Admiral
Faster than Light
Joined: February 25, 2011
Posts: 344
From: The land of venomous reptiles.
| Posted: 2011-08-16 20:14
A similar thing already exists, while smaller ships have less guns and weaker guns, they use less energy and can fly at high speeds guns blazing for much longer
in some cases it never runs out
[ This Message was edited by: Perseverance *FCA* on 2011-08-16 20:15 ]
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Pantheon
Marshal
Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1789
| Posted: 2011-08-16 20:34
As Pers stated, we already scale weapon energy usage, so this would ultimately do nothing.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2011-08-16 21:02
Quote:
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On 2011-08-16 14:03, Phoebuzz wrote:
This means that over a long period of time, a destroyer can only have up to only half the impact on the battle, which in turn makes smaller ship nearly worthless.
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I would say u don't know how to fly smaller ships at all by this statement, but I see u in them too often...I'm really not sure how you come to this conclusion.
And anyone who wants exrtra energy can purchase batteries for 250 credits. They give 50% of total energy back per use, regardless of ship size. They are more worth it in larger ships, but they aren't limited to them.
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Phoebuzz
Grand Admiral
Joined: November 17, 2003
Posts: 110
| Posted: 2011-08-16 21:02
This suggestion is about energy efficiency, and the ability to deal damage over long period of time.
It has nothing to do with energy usage, or perceived lack of energy problems.
Small ship weapons use less energy because they also deal less damage.
It doesn't stop an immobile dessie from generating half the energy of an immobile dread, and thus limiting the damage dealing over time by half, and thus making them half as useful as dreads.
That's not even considering that dreads can be played effectively while barely moving, but you'd hardly ever seen a dessie in a battle moving at leas than 12.5gu/s, and at that speed a dessie is generating 4 time less energy than a dread, thus is 4 time less useful.
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-08-16 21:18
uuuu....
flying small ships my entire ds stay, energy has never been an issue..
dont know what your talking about
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Phoebuzz
Grand Admiral
Joined: November 17, 2003
Posts: 110
| Posted: 2011-08-16 21:32
Quote:
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On 2011-08-16 21:18, *XO*Defiance wrote:
uuuu....
flying small ships my entire ds stay, energy has never been an issue..
dont know what your talking about
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"[This suggestion] has nothing to do with energy usage, or perceived lack of energy problems." -Phoebuzz, 16 minutes ago
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2011-08-16 21:49
sorry, but again you have the wrong impression. Smaller weapons use less energy, deal less damage, but fire faster. In damage over time, they aren't all that much weaker than larger ship's weapons. The issue becomes making sure as many shots as possible actually hit the target and not miss.
Also, smaller ships have a better chance of staying on an arc to maximize damage, if used properly.
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Xavier I. Agamemnon
Grand Admiral
Exathra Alliance Fleet
Joined: October 12, 2010
Posts: 357
From: Babylon5
| Posted: 2011-08-16 21:49
i thought this was about ship sizes.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-08-16 22:48
I want a dread sized dessie.
oh wait.....
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Thernhoghas
Grand Admiral
Exathra Alliance Fleet
Joined: September 18, 2010
Posts: 243
From: somewhere in Germany
| Posted: 2011-08-16 23:42
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On 2011-08-16 14:03, Phoebuzz wrote:
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so you're basically saying a 250 m long frigate should have the same engines and weapons as a 1.5 km long dread? seriously; wtf?
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This means that over a long period of time, a destroyer can only have up to only half the impact on the battle,
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Are you saying a dessie should deal the the same dmg over time? SERIOUSLY; W? T? F?
how should that work for ICC?
Combat dread vs Combat combat dessie
CDessie has 3 heavy guns and 3 normal ones
CDread has ..... like 11? 12? heavies; not entirely sure about the numbers.
and now go calculate how much ammo the CDessie would have to have to deal the same dmg over time as the CDread >.>
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which in turn makes smaller ship nearly worthless.
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I heavily disagree. Small ships aren't useless PERIOD
Only because you can't fly them as you'd need to make them usefull doesn't mean they're useless 
on another note: while suggestions are very appriciated in this game, you shouldn't go and try to push through suggestions that nobody agrees with.
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Phoebuzz
Grand Admiral
Joined: November 17, 2003
Posts: 110
| Posted: 2011-08-17 01:53
Quote:
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On 2011-08-16 23:42, Thernhoghas wrote:
on another note: while suggestions are very appriciated in this game, you shouldn't go and try to push through suggestions that nobody agrees with.
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It would be more accurate that say that you should not comment on a suggestion before you actually read it and understand it.
Hint: It's not about increasing the number of guns on small ships.
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Thernhoghas
Grand Admiral
Exathra Alliance Fleet
Joined: September 18, 2010
Posts: 243
From: somewhere in Germany
| Posted: 2011-08-17 04:33
Quote:
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On 2011-08-17 01:53, Phoebuzz wrote:
It would be more accurate that say that you should not comment on a suggestion before you actually read it and understand it.
Hint: It's not about increasing the number of guns on small ships.
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I suggest you read my post again. I said nothing about increasing gun amounts.
Please correct me if I understand your suggestion wrong:
You want all ships have the same engines ( in matters of energy output) and guns ( e.g. no weapon scaling)
which would be
1. unnecessary
2. barely noticed since the damage scaling isn't hat high as you might think (I recall a staff member stating either in the forum or the lobby that the damage differences are quite low) and the lower energy generation is more than compensated by less energy consumption.
Quote:
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On 2011-08-16 21:02, Phoebuzz wrote:
This suggestion is about energy efficiency, and the ability to deal damage over long period of time.
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Also if you haven't noticed already smaller ships are EXTREMELY more energy efficient than larger ones. Go try it out, than come back and think over your suggestion again.
Another addition: granted they aren't chased down and jumped by 2 - 3 assault dreads (not only the ICC AD) smaller ships stay in combat much longer.
[ This Message was edited by: Thernhoghas on 2011-08-17 06:08 ]
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2011-08-17 07:14
I can't say I've had many problems with energy on smaller ships; in fact, with smaller ships I've usually been able to stay in combat for far longer than larger ships, where hitting spacebar will wipe out your energy reserves instantly.
Two key things for smaller ships:
Firstly, smaller ships can afford to slow down, and in fact I advise not flying around at top speed all the time. Since ships turn at the same rate regardless of speed, flying more slowly reduces the radius of your turning circle which can let you get behind and stay behind an enemy ship. This has the added side effect of giving you better energy regeneration than a dreadnaught which is nigh-compelled to fly at top speed in order to engage the enemy effectively.
Secondly, smaller ships respond very well to firing the right weapons at the right time. In dogfights, cannons are your standard weapon which should be used most of the time, torpedoes are for situations where you know the enemy will not be able to evade them (often in head-on attacks) and thus should be saved for the right moment, and beams are for when you're right on their tail and you know you're going to be able to stay there for a few seconds. Mashing spacebar, like in all ships, is a recipe for wasted ammunition and energy. Larger ships can get away with it because the stuff that DOES hit usually deals plenty of damage regardless, and usually the enemy ship is another dreadnaught that can't dodge anyway. That, and the other dread is probably spamming spacebar too.
By following basic energy management, you too can fly small ships and virtually never run out of energy (unless you're flying a missile frigate, in which case you're screwed regardless).
TL;DR: Don't fly at maximum speed all the time, don't mash spacebar. You will last forever in a fight.
As with all the other people pointing out that smaller ships have no energy problems, this implies that giving smaller ships more energy is pointless since they will never have any need for more energy.
[ This Message was edited by: Gejaheline on 2011-08-17 07:18 ]
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-08-17 08:35
No you just got a stick up your arse.
we dont agree with you so obviously were dumb...
so here goes a play by play.
Quote:
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On 2011-08-16 14:03, Phoebuzz wrote:
Make all ship size (Scouts to Dreads) generate the same total energy from their engines.
***********************************************************
The very idea of a 300m scout producing the same amount of energy as a 1.5km Dread is just..... Why?
***********************************************************
Rationale:
Currently, smaller ships are doubly cursed by having both less firepower, and less energy generation.
*Less firepower, but more accurate firepower. Less energy, but less draw. Lower energy pool, but faster to regen to 100%.*
A destroyer, for example, has roughly half the energy generation of a dread. This means that over a long period of time, a destroyer can only have up to only half the impact on the battle, which in turn makes smaller ship nearly worthless.
*Nearly worthless??? LOL!!!! Half the impact on the battle??? uh??? what??? Over a long period of time, energy is going to have NO impact on my ability to make a small ship affect the outcome of a battle. If your having this much trouble managing energy....*
By giving all ships the same energy generation from engines, all ships should have the potential to have a similar impact on the battle over time.
*or be GOD boats of un-imaginable power. See closing statement*
Dreads would have an huge energy reserve, huge defense, and an insane ability to convert energy into fire power.
While smaller ship would trade those advantages for more mobility and a smaller ship size.
*small ships... you obviously dont know WHAT their advantages are... Faster, More maneuverable, more accurate, and more survivable with longer staying power than a dread or station.
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Could you freaking imagine the qq generated by a ICC small ship with the same energy reserve and regeneration as a dread? Can you say, "unbreakable"?
Could you imagine a Kluth small ship with the same energy reserve and regeneration as a dread?
Poor UGTO would be the least affected by your little plan... except they would be unable to compete with icc, and kluth small ships.
This idea is dumb. We all tried to be nice about it and tell you why its not a cool idea, but you didnt want to listen... so im calling it out.
This idea is dumb!
Sorry if I came off mean... but dude your just not listening to anyone at all...
(and he's been here since 2003....)
[ This Message was edited by: *XO*Defiance{CM7} on 2011-08-17 08:43 ]
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