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Two big bugs need fixing |
MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
|  Posted: 2010-07-15 12:37
1. Bombing desync. I don't know what the heck is wrong, but it's been wrong for ages now. I just did 5 bombing runs on Haven, two were with Bios, three were with Tele-Kinetics. The first Bio run did some damage, second Bio run did none. First Tele-Kinetic run did no damage, second took out a variance generator like it should have, third did no damage.
I watched most of the bombs hit their target. Only a few were shot down each time, and yet only twice did any do actual damage. It's very disheartening when you watch most of your bombs hit their target and no damage is registered, and yet people are talking about ways to make bombing required to cap a planet. Bombing is bugged! I never get these desync issues in any other online game, including ones hosted halfway around the world. Why is it so bad in DS that nobody can fix it?
2. Buildings run even with a power shortage. This bug has also been around a while. I see it in scenario as well. A planet will be fully functional with a power shortage, sometimes a significant shortage like -100. Even just now taking out a variance generator on Haven nothing was disabled (I tried to destroy a 2nd generator to see if that would do anything but of course bombing is terribly bugged).
I and a few others tested this a few months ago with the same results, but the bug is still here.
If you guys want to get rid of tranny rushing and make bombing required, you have to fix the bugs. The desync issue, if that's what it is, is especially bad.
There's also a bug which might be related where a planet will send a Power Shortage message when it has no shortage. It happens with solar generators. The planet will hit a low of say +3 to +20 power during it's rotation, never actually getting a power shortage, and the planet sends the message anyway.
[ This Message was edited by: MrSparkle on 2010-07-15 12:46 ]
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PhiliChez
Admiral
Joined: April 12, 2010
Posts: 28
| Posted: 2010-07-15 12:47
rofl def works without power. u could have -150 almost and have a very epic def planet while everything still works. and i also wish the bombing problem was fixed
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2010-07-15 12:54
Every time I bring this up, Im told its my internet. In fact, I started a post saying what Sparks is saying about two months ago. It was immediately locked.
Frankly I'm damn sick of the answer as well.
Saying the issue isnt with DS, when I can play other games, I get the answer that DS doesnt play like other games.
No duh.
But shouldnt the game be made to correctly interact with the internet? Otherwise what the hell are you doing? This is just a lame "who's on first" circular reasoning kind of crap arguement.
No. The issue is with DS. It started about 4 maybe 5 versions ago. It wasnt there, then after a patch it was there. Did ya'll patch the internet? No? Then guess what. Its the freaking game.
Please stop insulting our intelligence and either give us a real reason why it is happening or fix the damned issue already.
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Starcommander
Marshal
Joined: December 14, 2005
Posts: 579
From: In your base, stealing your cookies
| Posted: 2010-07-15 13:22
The issue lies with the server/client coding. Planets and there damage are server based, along with the def. All in all the server code needs fixing, something the devs just don't want to do.
This issue pops up more so with cloud bombing then with ECM bombing.
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2010-07-15 13:23
I vaguely remember something about changing from TCP to UDP? (I could be wrong on the names) I don't know what each is but I remember a dev saying the original TCP caused a ton of lag but prevented most of these desync issues by having extra safeguards against packet loss or something. Someone knowledgeable on them should elaborate.
BTW, I have disabled UDP in setup.
And yes it's cloud bombing causing it. I don't like the fact that ECM affects bombs at all. I think bombs should always be visible since they shouldn't be generating a signature. They're not engine driven like a missile or fighter, they're dumb drop-and-forget bombs.
[ This Message was edited by: MrSparkle on 2010-07-15 13:25 ]
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nicklane1
2nd Rear Admiral
Joined: October 03, 2009
Posts: 112
From: Eating your cheese behind you.
| Posted: 2010-07-15 13:23
After i think 2 patches ago I almost NEVER have bombing desync issues the only time i get them is when the planet is desycned and NO ONE in the whole server can bomb it. So i think its just the computer your using..... Or your internet.
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Kaoschan
Fleet Admiral
Interstellar Cultural Confederation United
Joined: October 11, 2008
Posts: 133
From: Germany
| Posted: 2010-07-15 13:24
cause no one can really code a real perfect net-code?
buy a dev for DS who has experience with network-codes, than perhaps it can be fixed 
[ This Message was edited by: Kaoschan on 2010-07-15 13:25 ]
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2010-07-15 13:56
Quote:
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On 2010-07-15 13:23, nicklane1 wrote:
After i think 2 patches ago I almost NEVER have bombing desync issues the only time i get them is when the planet is desycned and NO ONE in the whole server can bomb it. So i think its just the computer your using..... Or your internet.
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Do you cloud bomb or ECM bomb? I don't like ECM bombing and don't think it should even be possible to hide your bombs.
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Wild Cat
Fleet Admiral
Joined: August 28, 2004
Posts: 109
From: The Netherlands
| Posted: 2010-07-15 14:31
Quote:
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On 2010-07-15 13:23, MrSparkle wrote:
I vaguely remember something about changing from TCP to UDP? (I could be wrong on the names) I don't know what each is but I remember a dev saying the original TCP caused a ton of lag but prevented most of these desync issues by having extra safeguards against packet loss or something. Someone knowledgeable on them should elaborate.
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Short version regarding UDP & TCP, not accurate but it gets gives your a general idea between the difference of these two.
UDP is faster then TCP and more suitable for games that need quick information updates like First Person Shooters. UDP is faster because its packages simply much smaller. But there for also unreliable
There are no build in measurements to check if a packages was lost along the way and if I'm not mistaken nor in what order the package arrives.
If your close to the server and have a good stable connection, even if your lose a few packages, you will hardly notice it. Most FPS payers prefer to play on a server with a ping under 100ms any thing above the deem not worth playing on due to network lag (packages getting lost/arriving in wrong order).
TCP has addition data added so that checks can be done along the way and when it arrives. The packages are ordered in number so would package 654679 arrive followed by 654681, the server will request for packages 654680 before processing 654681.
Because of all the extra data added to perform these checks its slower and larger, but great deal more reliable then UPD.
For those who know nothing about network, I suggest to watch warriors of the net
under the download section you will find the full movie.
[ This Message was edited by: Wild Cat on 2010-07-15 14:34 ]
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Wild Cat
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2010-07-15 14:34
I bombed yesterday , it seemed ok tho.
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*Flash*
Chief Marshal
Joined: April 19, 2009
Posts: 291
From: Semi retired after 1.67 !
| Posted: 2010-07-15 14:43
nope...its been a while since i bombed
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2010-07-15 15:01
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On 2010-07-15 12:54, Azreal wrote:
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For someone who tells us to stop insulting your intelligence, you have poor reading comprehension  .
We've been stating for quite some time that it's the nature of the internet and not actual players internet, not everything will be synced all the time. A few of the projectiles that you see hit a target, never will for example. It's not just bombing that's affected, it's just a very good example of how the system works. What you see hitting the planet won't necessarily have due to the inherent latency of the internet. It's no fault of the system, that's just how the internet works - you will never have 0 latency, and you'll always see a portion of lag. Sometimes the update just won't come around between when you fire the bombs, and when the planet shoots them down.
DarkSpace is based on a Quake-style system, and whilst it's fine for Quake, it has issues with scaling (Planetside had this issue, for example). We're already working on a system to replace the current system. You'll have to be patient unfortunately.
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash on 2010-07-15 15:03 ]
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Faustus
Marshal
Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 2748
From: Austin, Texas
| Posted: 2010-07-15 15:02
Quote:
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On 2010-07-15 15:01, BackSlash wrote:
Quote:
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On 2010-07-15 12:54, Azreal wrote:
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For someone who tells us to stop insulting your intelligence, you have poor reading comprehension .
We've been stating for quite some time that it's the nature of the internet, and not everything will be synced all the time. A few of the projectiles that you see hit a target, never will for example. It's not just bombing that's affected, it's just a very good example of how the system works.
DarkSpace is based on a Quake-style system, and whilst it's fine for Quake, it has issues with scaling (Planetside had this issue, for example). We're already working on a system to replace the current system. You'll have to be patient unfortunately.
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What he said... new bombing & planet system is coming soon.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2010-07-15 15:13
Lol. So, the issue isnt DS, but changing how DS works will fix it?
Circles circles circles in circles.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2010-07-15 16:12
Quote:
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On 2010-07-15 15:13, Azreal wrote:
Lol. So, the issue isnt DS, but changing how DS works will fix it?
Circles circles circles in circles.
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Again with the reading comprehension...
A lot of the dev team have never been happy with how bombing works. It can be a very one-man affair, and the current way in which bombing is design (bombs hit planet/structures, etc) doesn't scale well with the system in which they're placed.
Couple this with the issue a lot of players have with receiving timely updates from the server, and you end up with more cons than pros. Whilst I designed the new planetary systems, I figured it was about time to change how bombing worked alongside it. With that, bombing will become less of a 'fine art', and more of a ultility (f.e. Interdictors).
This is not a work around due to a bug in the coding, or anything else. The way in which bombing works exacerbates a lot of holes in the system in which DarkSpace is based on. Every MMO has to pick between two sets of systems, Quake and Roll Based.
Roll based is SUPER easy on the servers but takes away huge amounts of skill and twitch based gameplay and doesn't suit a lot of the requirements for how we in-vision DarkSpace. Games like WoW are based on this, and is why they can have a lot on a server without many issues (read: it's MUCH lighter on system resources than Quake-based systems).
Quake-based systems are very twitch based and rely upon timey updates from the server. When placed in an MMO world, it becomes very sensitive to latency (as you can see in many FPS style games). When you shoot other players, their latency is taken into account. When you fire at planets, the server is the one controlling them, and is always at 0 latency, and will always react upon something the instant it can. Sometimes, it will shoot them down just after an update cycle, and you won't see them shot down - even if they're 0.001 gu from the surface.
As stated several times, we already have a system in planning to replace it. You'll just have to be patient. Sorry.
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash on 2010-07-15 16:13 ]
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