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Mines... What are they good for? (idea) |
Tellaris
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: April 30, 2002
Posts: 830
From: Land of Chocolate
|  Posted: 2010-05-07 22:21
No, this is not about planetary based mines, but the explodie ones dropped by ships.
Traditionally, mines where never really bothered with, because their effectiveness was less then useful. Many still feel the same way about the EMP mine in particular. Now that they have had their damage significantly increased, we see more use of them... But in an offensive instead of defensive capacity.
And mines cause the exact same issues that missiles and fighters cause, that of too many objects. Thus, I propose that a change is needed to make them more effective overall, and also less suitable for offensive use, as well as less of a problem for lag in general.
The idea is fairly simple. The minelayer now drops a single object, a "mine field." Damage from the mines is based entirely on if a ship enters its radious and is moving. The radious is fixed, and is set based on how many minelaying gadgets are on the ship. So for example, a UGTO Minelayer Frigate has 2 EMP mine slots. They generate only ONE object, however, render a field who's size is determined upon laying. So if we say 1 gadget generates a field 100 gu big, then a minelayer frigate is capeable of making a field with a radious of 200 gu. The minefield radious could even be further made to be increased, if the minelayer drops another load, giving a radious of 400 gu. (up to, say, a maximum size of 600 gu)
Now, becuase there is only one object now, its impossible to point defend against. As a result, damage now has to be scaled in some way. To make it a purely defensive weapon, that damage should be scaled against speed.
A simple formula could be used to do this, with just probability.
(x)*(y)
Where x = ship size (a decimal number between .1 and .9) and y is ship speed. For ship size, .1 = scout, .2 = frigate, .3 = cruiser, and so on.
So say a scout is traveling at 30 gu. .1*30= .3. A scout has a 30% chance of getting hit by a mine traveling at this speed.
A station gets a value of .5. Say the station is traveling at 5 gu. Because you shouldn't have higher then 1, (100% chance of being hit), a station traveling at 5 gu will be hit every time the game checks to see if its in the radious and moving. Whereas, if the station is traveling at only 1, the station has a 50% chance of being damaged by a mine.
Assuming its a percent chance to hit, all that really needs to be fiddeled with is a basic formula for determining damage, as well as just how much damage each "hit" causes. As for graphics, show a field of mines, sort of what is already done with nebulae.
Of course, the gadget reload time would need to be adjusted considerably, and how long the mines last would also be a subject of balance.
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Tellaris
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: April 30, 2002
Posts: 830
From: Land of Chocolate
| Posted: 2010-05-07 22:41
Now then, this idea brings up a bit of an issue. If the mine field has a lifetime of say, 1 hour, it makes attacking things in the field incredibly difficult. As such, a counter is necessary for this. The minelayer gets a new gadget, for all factions, the "Minefield Disrupter" does what the name suggests. So long as it is active, and the ship carrying it is in the minefeild, the minefield will shrink. Say, at a rate of 50 gu/s. So a 600 gu minefield will only take 12 seconds to be completely eliminated by a minelayer. This would force teams to use a minelayer to make planets easier to attack, just to reduce the existing mines. The energy cost of such a device needs to be prohibitive, as it for one thing, shouldn't be ABLE to move fast (moveing fast is a stupid idea for other reasons as well), yet still be low enough for a frigate to use it.
Also, to fine tune how much damage ships will end up taking, you can also add a base value for every ship as well. So a station might have a base value of say .4, whereas a scout or frigate may have one of .0
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Katejina
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: February 13, 2010
Posts: 73
From: katejina
| Posted: 2010-05-07 22:43
It should also have a limit to how many "hits" it can do since a station getting into a 600 gu field is basicaly dead if the mines do any good amount of damage still
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Nimitz
Fleet Admiral
Courageous Elite Commandos
Joined: April 19, 2005
Posts: 141
From: Melbourne, Australia
| Posted: 2010-05-07 22:57
Not a bad idea, but the UGTO's EMP mine needs to be replaced for this to be fair. Both ICC and Kluth have explosive mines that do hull damage, yet UGTO gets mines that only do armour/shield damage?
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Tellaris
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: April 30, 2002
Posts: 830
From: Land of Chocolate
| Posted: 2010-05-07 23:24
Quote:
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On 2010-05-07 22:43, Katejina wrote:
It should also have a limit to how many "hits" it can do since a station getting into a 600 gu field is basicaly dead if the mines do any good amount of damage still
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This is actually by design, its to encourage use of smaller ships if you have such a potentially dangerous obsticle, though clearing one may be somewhat trivial, defending that minelayer becomes an issue near a planet.
If you want to make it really complicated, you can also make it so that each time the mine field "hits" a target, it reduces by say 2 gu. So enough enemies plow through it, it'll cease to exist pretty quick too (though it'll likely do a fair bit of damage)
And of course, a minefield would always be detectable via scanner...
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Katejina
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: February 13, 2010
Posts: 73
From: katejina
| Posted: 2010-05-07 23:53
Quote:
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On 2010-05-07 23:24, Tellaris wrote:
And of course, a minefield would always be detectable via scanner...
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Unless its on the other side of a gate
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2010-05-08 00:03
Current mines are great and they dont need to be changed. But different type of mines always are welcome.
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Iwancoppa
Fleet Admiral
Joined: November 15, 2008
Posts: 709
| Posted: 2010-05-08 04:11
I like this idea, but not the ideas about getting rid of them.
in my opinion -
Field should stay for 1 hour
Mines are visible AND dodgable, like a big maze
small ships can easily get through without being hit, bigger ships have difficulty/cant
bigger ship = more damage. so if a station goes into a minefield, more damage will be done per hit then a cruiser for example
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Tellaris
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From: Land of Chocolate
| Posted: 2010-05-08 04:18
Quote:
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Field should stay for 1 hour
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The actual lifetime would be determined through balance testing...
Quote:
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Mines are visible AND dodgable, like a big maze
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They would be visible, all it takes is a little bit of art. Dodging is a bit of a bigger issue. To dodge something, the game needs to know where it is, and this requires it to be recorded as an actual object, with various properties, which contributes to lag. You need to know where the object is to dodge it. Kinda dodges the whole purpose of the idea, to make mines useful and less lag inducing at the same time.
Quote:
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small ships can easily get through without being hit, bigger ships have difficulty/cant
bigger ship = more damage. so if a station goes into a minefield, more damage will be done per hit then a cruiser for example
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This is a given, and would be the idea.
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Zero28
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 25, 2006
Posts: 591
| Posted: 2010-05-08 09:40
iv seen somethign similar on a game Called Allegiance
The mine feild, would damage any ships that goes in above the minimum speed, the faster you go, the more deadly, if you sta still or go at somethign like 3or5 GU the mine field Shouldn't even hurt you
its a great decrease in objects indeed, and well, we all know Pak is the one who mostly used the mines in an offensive way (probably same reason he said they don't need a change)
and the life span of the mine feild would decrease when a ships goes in and take damage
its not a bad idea but im more in favor of Having UGTO mines changed up
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-05-08 11:21
Strange idea.
Having mines consolidated into a minefield will actually do more damage to stations or big ships. It would have a massive AOE.
If this is your idea of nerfing mines, it's a weird one.
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2010-05-08 11:22
Current mines are dodgeable too. The problem is they dont do major damage one by one if you dont stuck them in spot. A scarab can lay down up to 75 mines and i can prepare a mine field. But they wont do any good if target is further than 100 gu. There were more mine options for factions before. For example kluth had a kind of mine( i dont remember it's name right now ) and they were mobile and able engage the enemy whenever enemy was in 100 gu distances. What i wanna say is mine laying is balanced within the game avalable tactics but different kind of mines will bring more diversity to game.
Also scanner must be fixed. One single scanner gives 100 signal every object in 3k gu radius and whole fleet take advantage of it. When we are 5-6 scarabs we get minus 50 signal around us. But single scanner , doesnt matter running by who , can jeopradize or kill the tactic of 6 players. If it would need 6 scanners to stop 6 scarabs and minefields it would be totaly fair.
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2010-05-08 17:25
just to clarify: traditionally, ICC used the hell out of mines. when there was a mine slot on the AC we spent ages laying mine fields, often in rather unique patterns dependent on the situation.
one time i put down a kind of umbrella shaped mine field and then sat with a jumpgate between me and an enemy dread, so the dread would close jump me smack in the middle of my mines... worked beautifully =)
I like the idea of having a AOE object that damages you dependent on your speed. that would mean an enemy dread caught in a field would have to be moving very slowly, an easy target for any ships in the area. would make for some good tactics.
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DarkScorpion
Marshal
Sanity Assassins
Joined: September 14, 2004
Posts: 237
From: London England
| Posted: 2010-05-08 17:47
Ok first of all the request to make mines easyly seen is already imn use its called fitting a scaner
second its unfair icc and kluth can do hull damage as we can only do armour or shield damage
well tough its just one of those things like you can change your armour to suit faction icc or kluth cant do that
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Zero28
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 25, 2006
Posts: 591
| Posted: 2010-05-08 17:57
Quote:
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On 2010-05-08 11:21, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
Strange idea.
Having mines consolidated into a minefield will actually do more damage to stations or big ships. It would have a massive AOE.
If this is your idea of nerfing mines, it's a weird one.
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well i dont think its liek that, Say a mine field would be 500 GU big it shouldn't not hurt a ship outside that "bubble" since a Dread/station is big, yes it hits more mines and do more damage
i don't think the idea here is to nerf or buff the Mines in anyway but rather find a lag friendly/lagless Solution for them
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