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Small test of ICC shields |
Ants
Chief Marshal
Joined: February 11, 2005
Posts: 315
From: Canada
|  Posted: 2009-11-30 00:11
SO I have a little test of ICC shields,
Mandible takes 4 alphas to hull a Combat Dread at 200gu
Combat Dread took 3 alphas to hull a Mandible at 200gu
With a Mandible on the AFT of a Combat Dread and a Siphon fore at 150gu
Combat dread hulled at 2 alphas from each. Siphon was hulled in 3 and a half alphas from command Dread.
Battle Dread takes 7 alphas against the Combat Dread at 200 gu
at 75gu Combat dread took 4.5 alphas to hull the Battle Dread, Battle Dread took 6 alphas to hull the Combat dread.
These are my findings. For everyone else... Beta is where this is meant to be done... feel free to actually test and give feed back to the Devs.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2009-11-30 00:23
Looks like the old days....
Yay! ICC is back!
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El Guapo
Chief Marshal
Joined: February 24, 2004
Posts: 276
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
| Posted: 2009-11-30 00:25
Realy think the dev's should start testing for them selves if no one is around. Any time I am in beta they are not there. Think I have seen a call for bodies once in the time I have spent in the game... Maybe if they posted in advance they could get a better amount of people out, and or it was structured to some extent... or both.
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ADmiraLMaXimus (Bringer of Doom)
Chief Marshal
Praetorian Wolves
Joined: March 09, 2002
Posts: 363
From: Earth
| Posted: 2009-11-30 01:07
what you are failling to take into account is that human beams do more damage as they get closer.... and kluth do the same amount of damage within any part of their weps range so your test shows what a kluth ship can do only ... not an ICC or UGTO ship at lets say point blank range like 50 gu .....
see now at this range your ICC Dread will hull a KLuth Dread with 1 alpha and the Kluth Dread will have to jump out or turn .... giving you a clear shot at their next layer of armor while their more powerful weps are out of firing position... all the while your forward facing weps are still firing and tearing thru the kluth armor and hull like putty  then all the kluth ship can do in that test is die lol
also our assult disruptors take twice as long to charge as your heavy beams
test that
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2009-11-30 01:39
I'm not really surprised, even though shields got 25% resistance to kluth in last patch. Kluth ships are easier to hull and cannot fight 1v1, unless you're talking about frigates and maybe certain destroyers. It's now even worse. Heck, two nests the other night had a hard time vs 1 line station. It took a while to get to his hull, and that's what, 16 station level SI on the same arc plus assault disruptors.
These tests also don't account for situations you'll find in game like defense enhancements, which icc get double benefit from.
I like these kinds of tests, and I've done some myself, but they don't reflect actual gameplay.
I do wish there was a way to test with enhancements. If there was a way in beta for people to obtain any enhancement at any time we could test what we'd actually see ingame, and even more extreme/rare situations like a combat dread with all advanced defense enhancements vs a mandible with all advanced multiplexers.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2009-11-30 02:08
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On 2009-11-30 01:39, MrSparkle wrote:
I'm not really surprised, even though shields got 25% resistance to kluth in last patch. Kluth ships are easier to hull and cannot fight 1v1, unless you're talking about frigates and maybe certain destroyers. It's now even worse. Heck, two nests the other night had a hard time vs 1 line station. It took a while to get to his hull, and that's what, 16 station level SI on the same arc plus assault disruptors.
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Split that up, put a nest on each side, hitting two different arcs, and the results are different.
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These tests also don't account for situations you'll find in game like defense enhancements, which icc get double benefit from.
I like these kinds of tests, and I've done some myself, but they don't reflect actual gameplay.
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Agree. It's only good for evaluating the raw DPS of a chosen ship vs a STOCK ship of choice.
As with enhancements and even with the limited moding we can do, it is hard to get a total overview of any particular situation. That's the best part of MMOs.
You have to start with a base, however, and I think that the above is really all you have to go on. When Wolf does a test we test individual weapon groups first, using a stock ship. Then we try a ranged alpha. Then we try a close up "death blow" alpha. Calculate that out and it gives you a average base dps. Then you add variables by modding weapon groups one at a time and performing each test again, until all possible options are covered.
Thankfully atm, not many rounds of tests are needed.
Enhancements add a specified percent change to each group. Using the tested base numbers, along with your tested variables, you can input the enhancement %s manually and get a rough guestimate as to your new DPS.
Close range DPS: (close in base DPS) x (total percentage of enhancements added together to be considered) = real DPS after enhancements are added.
Ranged DPS: (Ranged base DPS) x (total percentage of enhancements added together to be considered) = real DPS after enhancements added.
Example. I test a Siphon, and find I have a ranged DPS of 200/sec. (this is NOT a real number, for the record)
I want to see what Adv Multiplexors will do to that number if I stack them in a group of 4.
Advanced multis are +6%, so 4 x .06 = 24.
200dps x .24= 48. Add the 48 back to the 200 for 248, or 248 DPS, your new number after enhancements are added.
Want to test that the other way around, you can do that as well, to an extent. If you test your ship against a stock enemy ship, you can see the DPS taken in. Keep track of these numbers as well. Then do the same thing as you did to test the multis.
An EAD tests out to show it absorbs about 200 DPS stock. (again, a made up number).
You want to see how much Stevey's EAD can absorb, and you see he has 6 advanced defense enhancements. (Yeah, I'm making that up too  )
So, take the 200DPS base, and multiply by 6% to get your new DPS mitigation:
200 DPS x .36 = 72. So 200 - 72 = 128, or, Stevey's EAD is mitigating away 72 points worth of damage.
This can actually be done pretty well, since you can test your own weapons as they are against a stock ship, and then look at what the other guy has on his ship to get the numbers you need to check.
Anyways, if I am wrong, which is possible, let me know. But this is how I always do it, and it seems fairly accurate.
[ This Message was edited by: Azreal on 2009-11-30 02:35 ]
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Leonide
Grand Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: October 01, 2005
Posts: 1553
From: Newport News, Virginia
| Posted: 2009-11-30 02:37
sounds like ICC have a small amount of defensive capability now.
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2009-11-30 04:31
These tests also don't account for situations you'll find in game like defense enhancements, which icc get double benefit from.
well.... ok..... ICC def HP is devided between Armor and shields... 50 50 or 30 70 or some junk..
so lets say that u have 50% armor... and 50% shields that make up your Def HP>.....
now Advanced def upgrade gives 6% to shields and armo.....
now 6% added onto 50% is....53% ... so now your shields are at 53% total def HP... and your Armor is at 53% def HP...
So thats a total of 106% total Def HP.
if u apply the same enhancement to UGTO or KLUTH.... who have armor for 100% of thier def HP>.... the total is now 106% def HP..
get it?
also starting on myth number two....
25% resistance to energy does not give shields more HP!!!! shocking i know... but let me try to break it down.
lets say u have 400 shield HP... wich most of icc has.. (aka 4 active shields)
now lets say one beam from a mandi does 100 pts of damage to shield (befor the patch)
then when mandi shoots your ship one time you now have only 300 shield HP left...
all this patch has done is reduce your damage done to 75hp per shot (per say)... instead of 100.
Phisical damage still does the same. and we still only have 400 shield hp. (in theory.. not sure on the exact HP system used here)
i hope this helps.. im 6 months from graduating with a game design degree so ... i do know how this stuff works.
one more thing... does anyone know that rotating your shields while being fired upon uses up major ammounts of energy????
or is it just me?
[ This Message was edited by: FaTaL Defiance on 2009-11-30 04:33 ]
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Ants
Chief Marshal
Joined: February 11, 2005
Posts: 315
From: Canada
| Posted: 2009-11-30 08:48
Let me clear this test up.
Yes this is not game play testing. ICC would love if you sit still and not move.
What a lot of ppl think is OMG ICC can hull us in 1-2 alphas less... NOT TRUE.
If you know how to play your faction, or you are a hopper that has the skills of all factions you know 2 things. ICC has shields that can rotate, armour dose not rotate so move your damn ship .
That said A Mandi would cloak move to another arc decloak and take damage on their other arc’s “while there armour regenerates. They have 3 very good firing arcs.
The BD would turn to spread the damage taken to its other arcs.
Remember ICC shields, you need to damage 100% of our shields and 1 plate of armour. For UGTO and Luth.. you need to do 100% of there armour... 8 plates of it on Mandi's and BD's
And my tests do show, even at face to face our shields "1 arc" are still weaker than 1 plate of standard armour
[ This Message was edited by: Fatal Ants *XO* on 2009-11-30 08:49 ]
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2009-11-30 10:18
Ants, can u please further explain why enemy ships should hit multiple arcs now, like they used to have to? I tried I dont think I did a good job tho.
I think if people understood that part better it would clear things up.
Explain why
I keep seeing people say that you need to concentrate on the same arc. This is wrong the way ICC work now.
And it's not new, it's called .
By the way, gj devs. ICC is viable again!
2 factions down. 1 to go.....What's wrong with UGTO btw, besides deaf players?
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2009-11-30 10:21
Yes, UGTO armor is a bit too strong now compared to ICC, the "defensive" faction. The old light and heavy armor system was better - more defense but more mass.
As for Defiance's comment, reducing energy damage by 25% is effectively increasing shields' HP by 25% vs energy weapons, which is almost all the Kluth weapons you'll see. They can take 25% more damage; it amounts to the same thing. That percentage is reduced when non-energy damage comes into play, like torps, but it's still more.
(I'm not really complaining about the new shields, just pointing out that the change doesn't affect UGTO nearly as much as Kluth unless particle cannons are energy too).
And I still say that two or more ships should fire on the same arc rather than spreading it out, if they can. Double or triple damage to 1 arc and even when shields are rotating there's plenty of damage getting through to armor and hull, because shields don't negate any extra damage, but pass it through to the armor. EDIT: Think of it like Magic; The Gathering's combat. A defending creature can absorb all the damage of an attacking creature, even if the attacker has 10 damage and defender only has 1. But if the attacking creature has TRAMPLE any extra damage gets through. DS has trample damage.
Oh, and the problems with the nests was reinforcements and supply arriving We were still surprised though at how little damage we did, especially considering the other nest had awesome enhancements. Good damage, but not what you would expect. No wonder they're not worth using lol.
EDIT: I would like to test 2 ships vs same arc, versus 2 ships vs different arcs, and see which is better. 2 vs same arc has the advantage of damage passing through, and 2 vs different arcs has the advantage of shield rotating always sucking a little bit of shields away from each arc being hit (and possible human error in rotating multiple shields while firing and flying). I want to see which is better, or if they're so close it doesn't matter.
[ This Message was edited by: MrSparkle on 2009-11-30 10:29 ]
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Viskel the Muffin Muncher
Grand Admiral
Joined: November 13, 2009
Posts: 38
From: Your Fridge
| Posted: 2009-11-30 11:02
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On 2009-11-30 10:21, MrSparkle wrote:
As for Defiance's comment, reducing energy damage by 25% is effectively increasing shields' HP by 25% vs energy weapons, which is almost all the Kluth weapons you'll see. They can take 25% more damage; it amounts to the same thing. That percentage is reduced when non-energy damage comes into play, like torps, but it's still more.
(I'm not really complaining about the new shields, just pointing out that the change doesn't affect UGTO nearly as much as Kluth unless particle cannons are energy too).
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I don't see why we don't scrap the resistance bonus againsenergy weapons and just give shields a 25% HP boost, equal to all damage types? Then everyone is on a level playing field, rather than Kluth getting a damage reduction and UGTO being about the same as before..?
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El Guapo
Chief Marshal
Joined: February 24, 2004
Posts: 276
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
| Posted: 2009-11-30 11:06
I will whine all you guys want.
1. The only problem with the ICC where numbers. They have numbers in spades now. Even before the buff they where floating fleets large enough that they felt safe out in deep space, no planet near by to hug.
2. Be nice if every faction got a buff instead of a nerf. ICC players have sat in the lobby whining for years, all that got the k'luth was the dev's swinging the nerf bat at the k'luth faction, over and over, yet if I remember right the dev's stated that the factions where balanced, but they swung away. The chit armor buff thanks but the only difference is you can see it regen from the ahr. Where as before all your armor would heal but the chit, was always last and took forever.
Now 4 shields at 25% equals 100 you know the math 4x25=100. Now with the ability to rotate it means that over time the intire 100 can be put into one shield. What it should have been was 6.25 per shield facing, 4x6.25=25 that would have been a 25% shield buff not a 100%
3. There are a lot of vetern k'luth players that refuse to be prez cows for the ICC, yes I know whine. But the facts are this, we have tried, and we have tried, and we hve tried, 4 dreads can't take down 1, 5 dreads can't take down 1, the only dreads we can seem to kill is still the MD, but ICC are more or less safe in an AD, CD, or even a HC, unless they are asleep.
4. Thats the end of my whine.
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Ants
Chief Marshal
Joined: February 11, 2005
Posts: 315
From: Canada
| Posted: 2009-11-30 12:17
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On 2009-11-30 10:18, Azreal wrote:
Ants, can u please further explain why enemy ships should hit multiple arcs now, like they used to have to? I tried I dont think I did a good job tho.
I think if people understood that part better it would clear things up.
Explain why
I keep seeing people say that you need to concentrate on the same arc. This is wrong the way ICC work now.
And it's not new, it's called .
By the way, gj devs. ICC is viable again!
2 factions down. 1 to go.....What's wrong with UGTO btw, besides deaf players?
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I’m at work, but I can best describe it for you like this.
- If you have 2 ships attacking one arc. You are still taking 100% of the shields to drain together.
- If you attack 2 arcs, say aft and fore. The shields will be focused to one arc say “fore” that is being depleted.
-If you are draining my fore shields, and I am putting ALL of my power to my fore shields my Aft shields are weakened, ***reminder, mandi 4 alphas to hit hull means you are taking away more than 1 arc of shields per alpha. That’s 1 arc shield and 25% armour.***
So that is at least 35% from one all 3 arcs to keep the fore arc at 100%.
you are making them weaker therefore you will hit armour/hull first. The aft shields have 50%-25% shields to go through as the fore shield has 3X 100% and 25-50% of the aft shield to melt through.
So what does that mean... firing on one arc means you have to still go through 100% of all 4 arcs shields. Firing on 2 arcs fore might take 3 alphas now but the Aft fire will take 1-1.5 alphas to hit hull...
Hitting on 2 arc means 1 ship will drain the bulk 80%ish of the shields while the other will only have a fraction of one arc of shields to go through. IE: hull damage before shields are fully gone.
Team work my friends
[ This Message was edited by: Fatal Ants *XO* on 2009-11-30 12:33 ]
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Ants
Chief Marshal
Joined: February 11, 2005
Posts: 315
From: Canada
| Posted: 2009-11-30 13:07
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On 2009-11-30 04:31, FaTaL Defiance wrote:
also starting on myth number two.... 25% resistance to energy does not give shields more HP!!!! shocking i know... but let me try to break it down. lets say u have 400 shield HP... wich most of icc has.. (aka 4 active shields) now lets say one beam from a mandi does 100 pts of damage to shield (befor the patch) then when mandi shoots your ship one time you now have only 300 shield HP left... all this patch has done is reduce your damage done to 75hp per shot (per say)... instead of 100. Phisical damage still does the same. and we still only have 400 shield hp. (in theory.. not sure on the exact HP system used here)
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In other words... Use torps, PSI cannons, Plasma Cannons, “one of the are all projectile damage”, get out of the Krills and use other ships.
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