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Forum Index » » English (General) » » K'Luth Cloak and all other input on DarkSpace, the Universe and Life

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K'Luth Cloak and all other input on DarkSpace, the Universe and Life

Sops
Marshal
Galactic Navy

Joined: March 07, 2004
Posts: 490

Posted: 2009-03-02 18:05

I still had the last page of our discussion on cloak cached so now we can continue.

[shig: I actually tried to edit a post and got a "post no longer exists" error, so I saved the whole page, only to reload and find it nerfed. So here's my addition of two posts, in case it matters]

Pakhos - 2009-03-02 11:45
Just , i can NOT believe what i am reading about cloak on this thread. Seriously, i can NOT believe that.

You just need to activate your flux wave near a hurt kluth to deactivate ECMs device and cloak at same time,considering even it is cloaked a while ago.

Secondly , this goes to both faction icc and ugto. What logic of balance you produce in your brain cells to make a statement about "if 2 kluths attack from same plate in case of ugto or whatever from different plate in case of icc".

kluth = X
Icc = y
ugto = z

then 2x+y+z = your balance (server max pop 100)
which means 50kluth+25icc+25ugto =100 server population. Yeah that would be quite some balanced..

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Russian Roulette with Muskets - 2009-03-02 12:15
(quoting pakhos)

2 kluth one one target is a common situation, you can't ridicule that away.
Its however not the point. 2 AD hacking on you ist just as bad, even 2 eads hacking down on you is bad.

The point is that the kluth have it particulary easy to pincer or combo up o na given target and there not a thing he ca ndo but jump away. The point is that the kluth can cloack and avoid the retaliation of the fleetmates of said target, indefinetly. Something neither ugto or ICC can do. once they attack they are commited to it for as long as they need to get their jump drive ready.

Flux wave... ah yes..... to bad that doesnt fly when kluth are concerned. Auto repair ist great for god mode.

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Sixkiller - 2009-03-02 12:25
build sensor bases. We do it by masses. One unlucky kluth dread jumped in and it took an age to cloak. He died before he could cloak..

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Russian Roulette with Muskets - 2009-03-02 12:42
Quote:
________________________________________

On 2009-03-02 12:25, Sixkiller wrote:
build sensor bases. We do it by masses. One unlucky kluth dread jumped in and it took an age to cloak. He died before he could cloak..
________________________________________

hence the stupid kluth comment...

besides, sensor plats won't do jack for you if your have to fight in open space. You can't rely o nscouts either, they die nearly instantly, constantly and all the time an noone flys them for exacly that reason.
Oh and flying them doesnt net prestige either so even new players won't bring a scout over, say, a supply.

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MrSparkle - 2009-03-02 13:59
Quote:
________________________________________

On 2009-03-02 12:25, Sixkiller wrote:
build sensor bases. We do it by masses. One unlucky kluth dread jumped in and it took an age to cloak. He died before he could cloak..
________________________________________

That's why you often see an entire fleet of ICC or UGTO at their planet, and Kluth flying around in open space nearby but well over 1k away. We aren't dumb enough to assault a fleet at a planet unless we have overwhelming numbers (most of us).

Even though this thread is about shields, I think Kluth cloak is screwed in that eccm affects how long it takes to cloak and uncloak. There should be a set time to cloak and uncloak, none of this "30 seconds to uncloak" crap.

If anything, eccm should make uncloaking faster. It is afterall a device designed to enhance signatures and make ships easier to detect. Cloaking time being increased I'm not so concerned with, but uncloaking too? Wtf.

(It also makes anti-sensor bases 100% useless, as anyone building one makes it not only easier for Kluth, but easier to bomb the planet. Even Kluth, who should get the most benefit out of it, can't use it because of bombing).

Things are being worked on though, slowly but surely. Shields have been fixed. Dictors will be fixed. Station reload drone range is being adjusted. A little bluebird told me a respawn timer after death is being considered. Maybe cloak can be fixed too? To allow it to function as it should? Keep eecm pinging, I'm all for that. Just fix the ridiculous uncloaking times that come with lots of eccm.

EDIT: I say this because even though I understand that having a high sig while visible would make it take longer to cloak, how can having 0 sig make it take longer to uncloak? You don't have that high sig you'd have if you were visible, you have 0 sig. But the game makes you rise from 0 to whatever your visible sig should be before you can fire or do anything. It's not right. ECM helps but it's still a problem that should not be.

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Sops - 2009-03-02 15:34
I wouldn't mind them fixing uncloak timer but I do think there should be a cloak cool down. Both ECM and ECCM have them, if you shut them off you have to wait x seconds before they can be activated again and I think it should be the same way with cloak.
Currently if done properly a Ganglic can stay well out of range of ECCM uncloak, launch fighters/missiles and re-cloak before they can be attacked. A Missile Dread or Carrier Dread would never be able to attack a large enemy fleet solo like this and get away with it.

K'Luth already has the ability to jump near a target, cloak and wait for their drives to charge (still can't figure out why Luth need the fastest charging drives) then uncloak, attack and jump away as soon as they start taking damage. I don't think they need the ability to immediately re-cloak as well.

[ This Message was edited by: Sops on 2009-03-02 18:05 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Shigernafy on 2009-03-02 19:48 ]
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black

Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab

Posted: 2009-03-02 18:50

@Sops,

kluth's armor is weaker than ugto standart armor.
Kluth can be detected from 800 gu away with enough eccm.
Kluth can be killed while cloaked.
Kluth's cloak can be deactivated with a single flux wave. Give it another 10 seconds to repair system damage with ahr and another 30 seconds cloak.
Except ganglia or krill, none of kluth ships can last cloaked while on high speed.
Even kluth destroyers cant keep up with enemy destroyer about speed uncloaked.
We cant hit you with 3 alpha without cloaking and gathering energy ,otherwise we wont had enough energy to survive.
We can not go toe to toe with any ship at same level.
We cant fire backwards while we are chased.All kluth weapons are sided or fore arc.
Kluth needs to wait a good 15-30 second depends on ship size to fully uncloak or cloak near enemy planets with platforms.
Hence, kluth AIs run ECCM near us.
We cant use too much ecm , we kill our opportunity make point defense against fighters and missiles.
We cant use too much ecm , if not, We will hide even your cruisers with low signal.
We cant build ecm on our planets or even use ecm on our own ships while we defend a planet from enemy bombers. It will just help them.
We find absolutely RIDICILOUS to build WEAPON PLATFORMS , since Ugto's weapon minimum range is 1200 GU. They will just kill the platforms without being inside the SI range of kluth platforms.
We cant enjoy "ame" drivers anymore because of power issue.
We cant fire on you without being in your weapon range..
We will need to spend 700 AHR to repair 20% armor on a krill during 15 minutes.

So real question is Why do we recharge our jump drive faster than you?

_________________
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[-GTN-]BackSlash: "Azreal is a master of showing me what is horribly broken in the game."

Azreal
Chief Marshal

Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston

Posted: 2009-03-02 19:16

cloak cooldown sounds good...except that it scares me what that opens the door to.

Honestly I liked the ecm/eccm effected cloak. I'd like to see that type of a cloak returned for frigates, engies, supps, and trannies.
For larger ships, whos only purpose is military, I like the idea of the cloak we have with a few modifications. As stated, ecm should help us cloak faster, eccm should help us uncloak faster. Beacons should send off a signal tracable by a scanner. You can target the beacon, but not the ship its attached too. Firing on the beacon, also shortens its life. Beacons extending cloak time is just an illogical use of beacons. Sorry, I said it.
I also agree that ecm is now basically useless to us. It was our ally before, but now a death to our planets. That wouldn't bother me, if we had ecm platforms to match the eccm plats. I would also make the plats mobile for a limited distance. No dragging them about for bombing runs and fleet attacks. That will stop that exploit. Make them only movable for 200 or 500 gu, so they can be repositioned. Also, add a destruct feature, as well as a rank lock, so noobs don't destroy plats that are specifically built for a specific reason.

Further, I would ask for a bit more damage increase in mines, and the ability to see them on scanner. Mines are truely useless right now, as is the scanner. But when that scanner is used, everyone in the same system can see the ship that uses it. Make them both useful.

I should have posted this part in another post to respond to another comment by a dev. The comment was about how a dessie shouldn't be able to take out a dread. I agree with that, but I would add this: except in the case of a VERY skilled dessie pilot and a SOMEWHAT NOOBISH EAD pilot, the dessie never could take one out. Oh sure, there were ELF exploits, but there were fluxxorz as well. That was a gadget issue. The way the destroyers and cruisers used to be for K'luth was dead on! Kluth is hit and run. Guerrilla tactics all the way. The cruisers and dessies SHOULD be the ships of choice for that type of fighter. Fast in, hit, disperse. As much as I like the Krill, and have flown it the most, it is a UGTO ship in a Kluth skin. It isn't a Kluth ship and shouldn't be on the menu. The Ganglia, removed from the roll of a mobile command dread, has been relegated to a cheap imitation of a Missle Dread. K'luth should never have a bomber dread. The balance before was actually right on the money.
The most ships to choose from were in the dessie and cruiser classes, and only three dreads. The Mandy was the basement version a combat dread, and the Siphon was an improvement of that type of combat roll. The Ganglia, with reloads and build, and limited defensive capablity was the perfect command ship. The Claw and Drainer were deadly if run in packs with a cruiser. The Shell, with its heavy armor was a good noob ship, with its damage traded for survivability.The cruisers were fast and agile. All had weaker armor. All used massive amounts of energy to fire and even fly. But they were the right types of ships for a guerrilla fighter. Now, Kluth has entered Dreadspace™ along with the other factions, even as the devs scratch their heads trying to encourage use of the smaller ships that were once well used.

What I'd like to see is a return to a real difference between the factions. Not just the same ships with different skins, the only difference between them being some negative aspect of their peculiar situation. It's quite tiresome. I'd rather see a system instituted where you know what the differences are and you are pinned to the faction you have chosen. Few games allow you to decide what race or what faction you belong to without having a major penalty. This game is rampant with factional disloyalty, and it causes all not to be equally happy, but equally noobish. If you want to try the other faction, start a new account. Or maybe be penalized 1 rank. No military would accept a foriegner at the same rank, why does the game? Just a thought.

Ok. I'll stop now. Didn't mean to go on and on.

Az

[ This Message was edited by: Azreal on 2009-03-02 19:19 ]
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MrSparkle
Marshal

Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle

Posted: 2009-03-02 20:49

The only problem with a cloak cooldown is it would severly limit Kluth capability. There already is a sort of cooldown in place in the fact that it takes a while to cloak, and even longer under eccm. You can't just turn it on and off, in fact if you do you wind up unable to do anything including jump yet still be visible and targetable.

So there's sort of an indirect cooldown in place.

I do have to say that I'm in agreement with eccm making it take longer to cloak. That's part of that indirect cooldown, one that the enemy can have direct control over by using lots of eccm. What I'm not in agreement is eccm making it take longer to uncloak. It makes no sense that an uncloaking ship needs to go from 0 sig up to whatever sig it's supposed to have without cloak, because that sig varys greatly depending on how much ecm or eccm there is.

Conversely btw, lots of ecm helps Kluth cloak and uncloak near instantaneously. A fleet of Kluth all running ecm can immediately uncloak, fire, then recloak. That's not good either. There needs to be a simple set time to uncloak, maybe 5 or 6 seconds or so. Whatever the normal rate per ship's hull is right now without any ecm or eccm should be it.

EDIT: Speaking of flux, I'm gonna add something I've been noticing: It's near impossible to choose which of your ship systems you want repaired when you're taking system damage. If you start taking system damage, almost all of your systems take damage, not just a few, and the screen quickly fills with a bunch of red/orange icons with varying numbers that all look the same. You can't pick your jumpdrive out of that list before you're destroyed, or your cloak. By the time you figure out which of those icons is the one you want, you're dead.

I would LOVE a way to pre-choose which ship systems get repair priority. That way you can choose your jumpdrive as #1 priority, cloak #2, engines #3 etc and whenever you start taking damage to all your systems it will repair them in the order you want them repaired. Currently it really is impossible to find that 1 ship system you need repaired. The "repair screen" is also useless now (F3 is it? I never use it), and would make an excellent screen to choose these priorities. Have it list all your ship's systems, and you choose their priorities, either individually in the case of single systems like jumpdrives, or in groups in the case of weapons.

I say this because there's always something stupid being repaired first, like one of my front/left cannons, when I couldn't care less about my weapons right now. I need my jumpdrive and cloak you idiot engineers aboard my ship!

[ This Message was edited by: MrSparkle on 2009-03-02 20:57 ]

[ This Message was edited by: MrSparkle on 2009-03-02 20:59 ]
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Sops
Marshal
Galactic Navy

Joined: March 07, 2004
Posts: 490

Posted: 2009-03-02 21:47

kluth's armor is weaker than ugto standart armor.
Luth have the weakest armor but the strongest weapons and cloak.

Kluth can be detected from 800 gu away with enough eccm.
With ping yes, but if we are talking about 1vs1 in dreads it takes something like 30+ seconds for eccm to recharge, enough time for the K’Luth dread to move/attack/jump etc.
You could say so bring along a scout, well Luth can just as easily bring along a scout and run ecm while cloaked and defeat ping. It should not require 10 sensor platforms to find one Luth dread.

Kluth can be killed while cloaked.
Yes but they are normally hard to find, and UGTO/ICC can be killed at all times.

Kluth's cloak can be deactivated with a single flux wave. Give it another 10 seconds to repair system damage with ahr and another 30 seconds cloak.
This may work some of the time but I have tried and it hasn’t worked for me yet.

Except ganglia or krill, none of kluth ships can last cloaked while on high speed.
Why do they need to move at high speed? They are cloaked, the whole point is they get to take their time and pick when they want to fight.

We cant hit you with 3 alpha without cloaking and gathering energy ,otherwise we wont had enough energy to survive.
Not to sure what you meant to say.

We can not go toe to toe with any ship at same level.
K’Luth is the only faction that gets to pick its fights, ICC/UGTO don’t get that luxury. A Luth dread can come up behind an enemy dread and unload, then jump as soon as they start taking damage.

We cant fire backwards while we are chased.All kluth weapons are sided or fore arc.
Most UGTO ships have very few if any rear firing weapons; I think the battle dread has like 3 rear firing cannons, not sure about ICC.

Kluth needs to wait a good 15-30 second depends on ship size to fully uncloak or cloak near enemy planets with platforms.
And I think Luth ability to cloak should be curbed near enemy planets, it is after all enemy territory.

Hence, kluth AIs run ECCM near us.
There are a lot of problems with the AI, they need to be fixed.

We cant use too much ecm , we kill our opportunity make point defense against fighters and missiles.
Then don’t run ecm until you want to cloak.

We cant use too much ecm , if not, We will hide even your cruisers with low signal.
I’m not sure where your going with this, hiding your cruisers is bad for you?

We cant build ecm on our planets or even use ecm on our own ships while we defend a planet from enemy bombers. It will just help them.
Its to easy to bomb planets from all factions.

We find absolutely RIDICILOUS to build WEAPON PLATFORMS , since Ugto's weapon minimum range is 1200 GU. They will just kill the platforms without being inside the SI range of kluth platforms.
Weapon platforms are worthless against any dread.

We cant fire on you without being in your weapon range..
Is that different for anyone else?

We will need to spend 700 AHR to repair 20% armor on a krill during 15 minutes.
And ICC/UGTO get no hull repair.

So real question is Why do we recharge our jump drive faster than you?
That wasn’t the main point of my post, only a side note and I’m still not sure why.

________________________________________

I'd rather see a system instituted where you know what the differences are and you are pinned to the faction you have chosen. Few games allow you to decide what race or what faction you belong to without having a major penalty … Or maybe be penalized 1 rank. No military would accept a foriegner at the same rank, why does the game? Just a thought.
I think new players should be able to jump from faction to faction, perhaps be forced to pick a faction after hitting 2nd Rear Admiral or so?

________________________________________

The only problem with a cloak cooldown is it would severly limit Kluth capability. There already is a sort of cooldown in place in the fact that it takes a while to cloak, and even longer under eccm. You can't just turn it on and off, in fact if you do you wind up unable to do anything including jump yet still be visible and targetable.
But when your not fighting next to a planet the cloak time is still pretty quick, so for ships like the Ganglic you can attack a large enemy fleet from a far with out fear.

What I'm not in agreement is eccm making it take longer to uncloak
Neither am I.

There needs to be a simple set time to uncloak, maybe 5 or 6 seconds or so. Whatever the normal rate per ship's hull is right now without any ecm or eccm should be it.
It should be noted that when a Luth ship starts to uncloak it becomes visible before we get a targeting ridicule, not that big of a deal at close range but from a distance this can partially null out that uncloak time.

[ This Message was edited by: Sops on 2009-03-02 21:49 ]
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Russian Roulette with Muskets
Grand Admiral

Joined: September 04, 2002
Posts: 393

Posted: 2009-03-02 22:39

Even if one could see you at 800 GU 100% of the time, theres not a thing one can do. Last time i chekced we did not have lasers with that kinda range.

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- In firepower we trust. - I'm not buying this! -we ran out of firepower.

MrSparkle
Marshal

Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle

Posted: 2009-03-03 06:26

Quote:

The only problem with a cloak cooldown is it would severly limit Kluth capability. There already is a sort of cooldown in place in the fact that it takes a while to cloak, and even longer under eccm. You can't just turn it on and off, in fact if you do you wind up unable to do anything including jump yet still be visible and targetable.
But when your not fighting next to a planet the cloak time is still pretty quick, so for ships like the Ganglic you can attack a large enemy fleet from a far with out fear.

What I'm not in agreement is eccm making it take longer to uncloak
Neither am I.

There needs to be a simple set time to uncloak, maybe 5 or 6 seconds or so. Whatever the normal rate per ship's hull is right now without any ecm or eccm should be it.
It should be noted that when a Luth ship starts to uncloak it becomes visible before we get a targeting ridicule, not that big of a deal at close range but from a distance this can partially null out that uncloak time.

[ This Message was edited by: Sops on 2009-03-02 21:49 ]

It's just even more reason for Kluth to use what's becoming my favorite ship

Ganglias don't do near the damage our other dreads do, and they don't have the armor to duke it out in a proper fight. But they do have the advantage of range. You many not get many kills or do a lot of damage in a ganglia, but your survival rate climbs considerably.

Accuracy sucks at long range with plasma cannons, which is what a ganglia should be using since it's meant to fight at range and psi cannons don't do much damage from a distance. That doesn't mean I don't love it.
[ This Message was edited by: MrSparkle on 2009-03-03 06:30 ]
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Bandit
Cadet

Joined: May 25, 2004
Posts: 165
From: Under a rock

Posted: 2009-03-03 19:33

I really think the cloak is fine the way it is. Anyone with enough eccm can detect us before we can strike. Darkspace is a fleet organized game. It is not meant for someone to go pick a fight all by themselves or to sit in space and go afk. We (kluth) will find you!!. If anything, we keep people in and functioning as fleets should because they never know when their rear is gonna get burned unless they are working as a fleet should. Yes I know that there is not always enough people online to put together a proper massive fleet. But there are enough people to organize a small fleet and still be effective against the kluth.
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