| Author |
A way that the whole prestige loss fiasco could have been avoided... |
Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Raven Warriors
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
|  Posted: 2005-07-30 05:01
If we all remember, the prestige loss increase was done because people abused their ships by either crash bombing, or suiciding under larger ships, and gaining prestige. It also had a part that it was to "value our ships more".
After considering these things, I asked myself : "What could have been a better way to prevent those things from happening?" So I thought about other penalties there were, and thus the ideas hit me.
The following would be best around 1.482 prestige loss levels.
Self-Destructing.
This one is to help prevent the repeated suiciding under larger ship ordeal. Self Destruction now turns from an addition (10), to a penalty based on hull class.
Since people would SD to do a bit more damage when their weapons gave out so they got back quicker, this should help.
Scout : -10.
Frigate : -20.
Destroyer : -35.
Cruiser : -50.
Dreadnought : -85
Assault Dreadnought : -135 (ouch yes it starts to hurt)
Station : -220.
Think thats high? Thats the penalty for Self Destructing, as in a theoretical DS military, SDing your ship m8s and crew would be unprestigious and thus, a high penalty is placed on such a act.
One problem solved...onward...
Planet Collisions
Next idea...
Planet Collisions is no longer a statistic, it is then a penalty based on your ship, however, you lose double your ships value.
*cringe* I know, right now everyone is yelling "OMG LAG WE ALL HIT PLANETS!!!!!!!"
Well, to prevent such unfair things, the above only applies when you fly any ship with a bomb slot.
Why would that apply though? Well, hitting a planet that coud potentially be owned by your faction would not want to have to clean up the mess you left, as well as the lives of countless people both on the planet and on your ship. (yay for fiction).
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Friendly Fire
Simply, just increase the penalty higher than the ships damage gain. That way, people would likely stop camping under stations altogether.
So what if you accidentally hit a friendly ship well, if its an accident, it shouldent amount to much. If its on purpose, you will likely lose a boatload of prestige.
That actually solves two problems, Tking and suiciding.
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And the last one, valueing your ships.
While prestige loss is low and credits run rampant, I feel there should be a way to make you want to keep your ship, though losing it won't put too much of a dent.
This is a tender subject but this is how I feel.
For one, jack up the prices on all weapons, not so high no one can afford them, just high enough it will put a small dent or two in your pool. (it should cost around 1-3 mil to mod a dread.)
Secondly, I have a genious idea which not only solves this problem, but alot others too.
As you fly that ship, you do things. The more you combat with THAT ship, the more prestige you gain from it. The more you supply in THAT ship, the more supply prestige you gain.
Basically, the longer you keep your ship, but only that ship, the more you gain from it.
This not only encourages staying alive, if you die you have nothing to lose!
Does the prestige gain increase keep increasing as you use the ship, the simple answer, is yes. Some values (like resupplying) would have less of a prestige gain value than say combat. This encourages again, to fly ships that are more helpful, rather than everyone jumping in a supply, or some such.
This is only the brim. Also, the more you keep THAT ship, the more credits you make from selling, completeing missions, or if the automatic bounty system is put in, you gain more credits.
This not only puts more value on your ship, but also gives more arcadish feel.
So tell me what you all think of these suggestions..,
-Ent
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Sauur
Chief Marshal
Praetorian Wolves
Joined: November 30, 2004
Posts: 475
| Posted: 2005-07-30 07:09
1. SD'ing - never really done it in combat so no comment.
2. Double penalty for bombers crashing in to planets? - Playing on a 350 ms connection on a good day and bombing being what i do most this does not sit well with me - i must be missing something.
3. Friendly fire - have never really had a great deal of problem except with new players, have found patience in these situations has been the big winner - penalising these players would seem a bit nasty to me.
4. Increased value of ship the more you use it - brilliant - I would call this a definant evolution in the game experience.
Had a chat with a previous DS player along similar lines - briefly - single specialisations based on your highest skill in an area - ie once you break say 20 000 skill points in combat you would get a Platinum badge for combat and be able to add an extra wpn to ship - or bombs slot for Platinum bombers - cargo slot for transport....
Once another skill overtakes your highest, the Badge would transfer to that area.
5. Power of ship dependant on credits earnt - introducing an economy into a long running game will always be very awkward and will likely disgruntle a number of players. Player with only short game time (ie. a few hours a week to play) this will automatically make it more difficult for match up against players of similar rank and thus create unfair advantages in my opinion.
Also in my opinion I do not believe the DS game enviroment is large enough to support the game depth that a good and fair economy needs to survive and be productive to the game - however...... there are some cluey ppl out there that may get something to work 
Anyways they're my thoughts - hope they help show another point of view.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Raven Warriors
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2005-07-30 08:04
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On 2005-07-30 07:09, Sauur wrote:
1. SD'ing - never really done it in combat so no comment.
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[1.482] Point of View : Scenario - Say for instance your in a station, an enemy dread comes in. Without blinking an eye he parks under your station and mashes the space bar, he gets you to hull, he's almost dead, he SDs because likely his systems are damaged and can no longer fire.
The explosion damages you more, and he comes back, and continues to do so until you lose that station.
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2. Double penalty for bombers crashing in to planets? - Playing on a 350 ms connection on a good day and bombing being what i do most this does not sit well with me - i must be missing something.
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[1.482]Another scenario : Your in a AC, the maximum loss for that tranny then was 10 prestige. You could go at a planet with full inf, and "crash bomb" repeatedly, and gain prestige. Another one of the main reasons prestige was increased so high, because of abuse.
If prestige loss is lowered once more, I believe such actions would occur again, thus if you crash intentionally, youll lose some, SOME not a ton, prestige, especially with how much you can gain from such an endeavor, you may be looking at losing 10 prestige lost if it was a good run, if it was on accident, or purpose.
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3. Friendly fire - have never really had a great deal of problem except with new players, have found patience in these situations has been the big winner - penalising these players would seem a bit nasty to me.
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I've noticed lately players (ones who know better) Tking their own team for kicks and giggiles, and while newbs do not realize green = friendly, they woulden't be able to do enough damage to put themselves at a great loss before being rectified.
Then again, ignorance is the players own fault...read the manual..
4. Increased value of ship the more you use it - brilliant - I would call this a definant evolution in the game experience.
Had a chat with a previous DS player along similar lines - briefly - single specialisations based on your highest skill in an area - ie once you break say 20 000 skill points in combat you would get a Platinum badge for combat and be able to add an extra wpn to ship - or bombs slot for Platinum bombers - cargo slot for transport....
Once another skill overtakes your highest, the Badge would transfer to that area.
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5. Power of ship dependant on credits earnt - introducing an economy into a long running game will always be very awkward and will likely disgruntle a number of players. Player with only short game time (ie. a few hours a week to play) this will automatically make it more difficult for match up against players of similar rank and thus create unfair advantages in my opinion.
Also in my opinion I do not believe the DS game enviroment is large enough to support the game depth that a good and fair economy needs to survive and be productive to the game - however...... there are some cluey ppl out there that may get something to work
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This game needs an economy unfortunately, and one is already currently planned, this was just another idea to add onto it if it may be so.
Since probably in the new economy credits will likely be much, MUCH easier to earn than now, and as only a couple mil I would hope is that would be needed, even the gamers not often on will still be evenly matched in terms of power.
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Specterx
Fleet Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: December 09, 2001
Posts: 547
From: Virginia/California
| Posted: 2005-07-30 08:23
I can't for the life of me remember when self-destructing was a problem, with the exception of way back in the day when we had "station bombs" that would take out whole fleets. That was years ago, though.
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Binks
1st Rear Admiral
Joined: November 28, 2003
Posts: 469
| Posted: 2005-07-30 11:52
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On 2005-07-30 05:01, Enterprise wrote:
If we all remember, the prestige loss increase was done because people abused their ships by either crash bombing, or suiciding under larger ships, and gaining prestige. It also had a part that it was to "value our ships more".
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I don't believe I ever heard SDing being brought into the pres-loss "discussion" as it were, planet ramming was the main thing...
Eh...okay, I like this system...although really SDing could be removed from the game entirely and no one would mind...the only real reason to do it would be if you're too far from the battle and you don't mind grabbing a new ship, but that can be solved by logging...can anyone tell me a good reason to leave SDing in the game other than realisticness?
I'm gonna have to say a big NO on this one. Instead I'd personally prefer a system similar to my preference for SD's. Last night in the MV someone posed an interesting question that I'll paraphrase "Why are there planetary collisions in a partly 3d game anyway?". I think that makes a lot of sense, if a scout can fly under a station why can't a dread fly under a planet? Simply put remove all collisions except Gas Giants, Stars (noob fun  ), and asteroids. Instead the ship would have the same animation as a ship passing under a station, and the station would either pass under or (if you have the time ) above the planet. That way cloud bombers wouldn't have to worry about lag, and couldn't defend their bombs all the way in. I also think that different distances of moving would be helpful, scouts wouldn't drop till say 100 gu from the planet but dreads would start to move at 200 or something like that...
You mean it isn't already? I always thought shooting a friendly was a pres loss, not a loss and gain!
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And the last one, valueing your ships.
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Last time I modded a dread the total cost w/ mods was over 4 mil...I think a fully modded dread costs around 3 mil already...but I love your bonus multiplier for length of time in a specific ship...could be simplel, just add a single number "Time spent in Ship" to each ship in your garage, make it a clock and when you pass milestones you gain a little more exp...that's a great idea!
Good ideas Ent...Someone give this man a pie!
[ This Message was edited by: Binks(Give Midshipmen Sup/Engy) on 2005-07-30 11:53 ]
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Bobamelius
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: October 08, 2002
Posts: 2074
From: Ohio
| Posted: 2005-07-30 12:30
I fricking that last idea...
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AdmBito
Grand Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: October 04, 2002
Posts: 1249
From: Its hard out here for a pimp
| Posted: 2005-07-30 15:00
Some of us dont mean to do half the stuff on the list, and do it anyways. I have a few self destructs on my profile I wish werent there, from bombing, mines, and I even blew myself up from an alpha strike of torps once. I think penalizing someone massively for that would be a bad idea.
The same goes for planet collisions. I may not be the best navigator in the world, and I occaisionally cut corners jumping around the MV, but there have been many, many times I have simply lagged out and come around to find myself inside a planet.
What we need to go is somehow make having a ship in the area where the action is more important than dying to get some easy prestige. If a player were to have to take awhile to get his ship back there, he wouldn't be so quick to rush headlong in to battle, or quick to die some other way.
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Russian Roulette with Muskets
Grand Admiral
Joined: September 04, 2002
Posts: 393
| Posted: 2005-07-30 15:36
Why does the game need an Economy?
Economy means adding timesinks, doing stuff one did not came here to do.
I want to have Fleet vs Fleet Combats (or ship vs ship), not a low grade Elite.
I say: Get rid of credits and costs alltogether. Let the noob and the Vet order any (faction compatible) items they want from the local faction store, for free, no costs involved. No time sinks involved. only mod the ship as you like it and get going.
If you want to play Eve, go play eve.
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-Viper-
Fleet Admiral
Joined: July 26, 2001
Posts: 55
From: UK
| Posted: 2005-07-30 16:58
I agree, the credits etc is just making DS into an elite clone, we all know there has been NO successful elite clones, ever. DS has something unique and they should stick with it.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Raven Warriors
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2005-07-30 17:11
Friendly Fire : As that currently stands, you can FF a dread to death (literally) and probably lose on the whole 50 prestige...
Yeah. Bit low isn't it? I don't know about everyone else here, but shooting your teammates intentionally should hurt. Alot.
SDing...well, most people (now) SD for the shear fact of you not getting that kill, it used to be, people would park under you and do so, but because prestige loss is so high currently, people really don't want to die.
For planet collisions...yeah, some people may hate that, but I'd rather lose 10 or 20 prestige than to see crash bombing come back, but this is me.
Perhaps just less prestige gain from bombing, either way, something needs to be done about that.
And as for economy...its only a timesink if its made one. The thing about DS is that it should be easy to make credits, bordering on giving them to you.[
Lets try to think outside the little box of MMO games and try something new...
-Ent
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Knuckx117
Cadet
Joined: June 28, 2005
Posts: 2
| Posted: 2005-07-30 17:20
One problem I've had with a friendly support station was this...
Scenerio - I'm in an Escort Destroyer that has 12 pulse beams, 7 shield generators, and 4 fully upgraded reflective armor on it. in other words, for drawin away enemy fire... I'm in the Kaptelyn's star system, in the middle of a big battle, but kind of hovering around said support station. I just got resupplied, and then I find myself being tractored... I quickly hit F2, and find that there aren't any enemies even close to our position. I then hear the distinct sound of a wormhole being opened. I then find myself destroyed... It took me a few seconds to realize that I had been tractored into a wormhole that led to a star in an adjacent system. I lost 70 prestige... 70.. freaking... prestige... all because some jerk decided to send me into a star... Most of that was from all of the lost resources... I did some calculations, and found out that I could have had 726.86 prestige. *sigh* the jerk... and I didn't even get my prestige back... I was forced to go back to the newbverse and regain all my prestige by rapidly capturing planets.
On an unlrelated note, My clan name is Orbital Drop Shock Troopers. motto: Feet first into hell... In other words, at the beginning of a scenerio, I get a transport ship, drop infantry on a planet, then while they're capturing the planet, I go and switch to an engineering ship, By the time I come back, the planet is captured, and I put 1 of everything on it, and about 4 barracks, and take the two infatnry I originally had, and go capture the nearest planet to the one I just took. I'm capturing and building planets so fast, that sometimes, people don't even join the game under the ICC, just because I'm doing so well on my own... Speaking of which, I was able to hold off 2 interceptor frigates and an assault corvette with an m-125 engineering ship... Hurray for shields!! =D
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Russian Roulette with Muskets
Grand Admiral
Joined: September 04, 2002
Posts: 393
| Posted: 2005-07-30 18:53
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On 2005-07-30 17:11, Enterprise wrote:
And as for economy...its only a timesink if its made one. The thing about DS is that it should be easy to make credits, bordering on giving them to you.[
-Ent
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I have not heard a single suggestion regarding Economy that wouldnt turn
out to be a useless addition thats not needed.
This game is about Fleret vs Fleet combat. Combat means shooting members of the enemy faction and take their planets then point a finger at them while laughing hideously. And you do that in your shiny ship you modded for YOUR personal preferences.
There (simply put) is no need to add Economy. What does economy add to the game? 1.) the need to get Money for buing stuff to mod your ship. 2.) Being newb is bad enough, but not being able to buy mod's makes it even worse. Even more when the stock ships have those (simply put) stupid weapon loadouts.
I say get rid of credits and modding costs, get rid of item build times (simply put: click it, get it, mod it, delete the old stuff, scraping instead of selling)
What does Economy add to the gameplay, Enterprise?
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Raven Warriors
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2005-07-31 04:51
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What does Economy add to the gameplay, Enterprise?
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1. Realisim. I doubt a weapon capable of massive destruction would be just given away, free of charge.
2. Something to work for, that takes really no time to work for - If everyone could get everything handed on the silver platter, whats really the point of said already earned credits?
3. Something else to do while playing - Meaning while having fun, you still gain the credits for ship mods.
And...
When said it would be easy to make credits, that goes for every single newb out there too. When it won't cost more than 100k to mod a Destroyer, all you'd have to do is a few, easy, QUICK missions, likely while your even killing the crap out of the enemy.
I think your confused a bit about credits can be earned, so ill clear that up.
Simply enough, Ill give an example of how, at most a ship would cost in mods :
Scout : 20k.
Frigate : 50k.
Destroyer : 100k.
Cruiser 250k.
Dreadnought 500k.
Assault Dreadnought : 1mil.
Station : 2 mil.
But thats probably at most, 1.482 modding was even cheaper than that.
With a new economy there are many ways, even noobs, can gain creds, quite quickly indeed.
There will likely be...
Defend Planet missions, bombing missions, supply missions, destroy missions. All of which can be done in the newb server.
There will probably your old trading system as well (I could make about 100k in 2 minutes) or your old fashioned mining which is still good.
If my idea goes in the works, you'll gain more credits (as in 1x, 2x, 4x) modifiers for the missions you complete, the selling you do.
Theres even credits to be gained automatically, from capping planets. to destroying a ship, for automatic bounties. (obviously missions would give out more)
This means not only are credits easy to make, there are simple ways to do so as well.
There might be the arguement "if its so easy, then why bother?" well because it still require a small time to gain, so that you have a little more pride in a modded ship.
In all these pros, theres only one iddy biddy con : Time. That time may be around 5 - 10 minutes, if like alot of people already, were set for a pretty long time. And its not like everyones greedy and keeps all their credits to themself.
Wow another pro : community interaction. Nice isnt it?
That should cover it, with a system such as that, tell me exactly why it shoulden't be implemented?
-Ent
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Beast
Cadet
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: May 27, 2002
Posts: 345
From: Wouldnt you like to know
| Posted: 2005-07-31 06:23
Respawn timer. Simply put the more you die the longer it takes for you to respawn a new ship, but if you stay alive for a certain period of time the spawning timer resets to say 10 seconds.
[ This Message was edited by: Beast on 2005-07-31 06:25 ]
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Russian Roulette with Muskets
Grand Admiral
Joined: September 04, 2002
Posts: 393
| Posted: 2005-07-31 09:42
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On 2005-07-31 04:51, Enterprise wrote:
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What does Economy add to the gameplay, Enterprise?
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1. Realisim. I doubt a weapon capable of massive destruction would be just given away, free of charge.
2. Something to work for, that takes really no time to work for - If everyone could get everything handed on the silver platter, whats really the point of said already earned credits?
3. Something else to do while playing - Meaning while having fun, you still gain the credits for ship mods.
And...
When said it would be easy to make credits, that goes for every single newb out there too. When it won't cost more than 100k to mod a Destroyer, all you'd have to do is a few, easy, QUICK missions, likely while your even killing the crap out of the enemy.
I think your confused a bit about credits can be earned, so ill clear that up.
Simply enough, Ill give an example of how, at most a ship would cost in mods :
Scout : 20k.
Frigate : 50k.
Destroyer : 100k.
Cruiser 250k.
Dreadnought 500k.
Assault Dreadnought : 1mil.
Station : 2 mil.
But thats probably at most, 1.482 modding was even cheaper than that.
With a new economy there are many ways, even noobs, can gain creds, quite quickly indeed.
There will likely be...
Defend Planet missions, bombing missions, supply missions, destroy missions. All of which can be done in the newb server.
There will probably your old trading system as well (I could make about 100k in 2 minutes) or your old fashioned mining which is still good.
If my idea goes in the works, you'll gain more credits (as in 1x, 2x, 4x) modifiers for the missions you complete, the selling you do.
Theres even credits to be gained automatically, from capping planets. to destroying a ship, for automatic bounties. (obviously missions would give out more)
This means not only are credits easy to make, there are simple ways to do so as well.
There might be the arguement "if its so easy, then why bother?" well because it still require a small time to gain, so that you have a little more pride in a modded ship.
In all these pros, theres only one iddy biddy con : Time. That time may be around 5 - 10 minutes, if like alot of people already, were set for a pretty long time. And its not like everyones greedy and keeps all their credits to themself.
Wow another pro : community interaction. Nice isnt it?
That should cover it, with a system such as that, tell me exactly why it shoulden't be implemented?
-Ent
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1.) Were all Officers in the Respwektive Factions Fleets.... Talk about Realism... does the Bomber Pilot need to Buy that Bombs himself?!
Does the commanding officer of an Carrier group need to buy the Carrier or its equipment?
2.) "2. Something to work for, that takes really no time to work for - If everyone could get everything handed on the silver platter, whats really the point of said already earned credits?"
I would say its already enough work to get Prestige and Badges. Why add another bothersome element? Whats wrong with the silver platter aproach?
3. Something else to do while playing - Meaning while having fun, you still gain the credits for ship mods.
If it are missions that dont take effort: why have them in the first place?
If it are missions that take efforrt (and thus become bothersome) why add them in the first place?
Just get rid of credits all together.
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