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Coeus {NCX-Charger}
Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners


Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 3634
From: South Philly
Posted: 2006-03-25 14:25   
First off I just want to take the opertunity to thank Faustus & Tael and the entire development team & community members for all the hard work that they're putting in to make this beta successful.

That said, from the very little that I have seen & heard & tried for myself, it looks to be just a repeat of what happened with the 483 debacle. What I mean is that yes, the changes are incredible and sound great on paper, and yes it has the basic idea behind what most players want - the problem is the ship layouts themselves.

Now, I am making this post with absolutely no knowledge of whether there are planned changes to the ship layouts, so if there are please enlighten me to them, I won't take it personally, I promise.

What is wrong with the current ship layouts? Everything, in my humble opinion. The whole idea behind this generation of ships is "Put more guns on it. Oh they're too powerful now, its too easy to kill, so put more armor on it." in a continued escelation that is both laggy and lacks a good degree of skill. What absolutely positively needs to happen if we want to A) bring old players back and B) keep all players here is that combat needs to be fun again. Thats the main reason that we all play... I don't hear a whole lot of people saying "Damn, I can't wait to get home from work and build a planet!"

I know that this has been said a million times and its starting to sound like a broken record but the ship layouts absolutely must return to some element of what they were. Right now all of the ships are a shadow of their former selves, and - with the ability for newbs to go "PEW PEW PEW" and "BLAM BLAM BLAM" to their hearts content, I don't think that a whole lot of the player base enjoys the current layouts - aside from those individuals who enjoy abusing a broken system to increase their own petty profiles... which is not quite the type of person that I'm all that interested in taking advise from.

Look, we all know the problems that are associated with trying to redo an entire system that took, literally, years to develop, and to throw that all away in favor of either another new system or a return to the old system does seem like a hell of a waste - but we have to ask ourselves the question of whether those years spent in development weren't a waste anyway due to the obvious evidence of the outcome?

What I mean to say is that yes - a lot of hard work and time and effort went into the development and tuning of the current generation of ships but, to put it bluntly, it is a complete failure. The ships are not fun. That is the bottom line. There are some fun moments and some thrills that remind us of what it was like, but those moments are fleeting and are interspersed with many more moments of lag, annoyance, and abusive players taking advantage of the afformentioned broken system.

Listos version... for gods sake, didn't anyone back up the old ship stat files?
Don't get me wrong, I mean this is all just my own opinion, but isn't that what beta testing is all about? Getting the opinions and feelings of the paying playerbase before they all become a non-paying playerbase?

[ This Message was edited by: Coeus [CSS Morningstar] on 2006-03-25 14:36 ]
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy


Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11180
From: Bristol, England
Posted: 2006-03-25 20:20   
Only four things where changed in beta so far.

Bombing.
Upgrading.
Levels set to hull.
Resources.

Ships are still yet to be tweaked.
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Coeus {NCX-Charger}
Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners


Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 3634
From: South Philly
Posted: 2006-03-25 22:34   
My main concern is will they be?
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Azreal
Chief Marshal

Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2801
From: United State of Texas, Houston
Posted: 2006-03-26 06:03   
This is equivalent to standing at the front of an assembly line, watching the axels being put on a frame, and saying you hate the color of the interior.

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Drafell
Grand Admiral
Mythica

Joined: May 30, 2003
Posts: 2449
From: United Kingdom
Posted: 2006-03-26 06:33   
Quote:

On 2006-03-26 06:03, Rogue Wolf wrote:
This is equivalent to standing at the front of an assembly line, watching the axels being put on a frame, and saying you hate the color of the interior.




Very good analogy.

A few tentative suggestions have been made so far, but until we have the Upgrade paths fully in place and bug free, we really arent in a position to test the ship configurations fully. so far it is looking fairly balanced, with a few notable exceptions. But there are several way that balance ca be achieved, and the layouts we have can work with a few minor tweaks.
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Coeus {NCX-Charger}
Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners


Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 3634
From: South Philly
Posted: 2006-03-26 12:11   
You guys are still missing the two MAJOR points here.

A) It is the whole theory of "Beta isn't finished, so stfu" gave us 483, and I will have no party to just sitting idly by while things just go their own way without giving some input.

Yes, the axles are being put on but the interior is already designed. You expect me to wait until the car is on the showroom floor to say I don't like the color? No - plain and simple you decide NOW what you want to happen, not decide that after its happened you don't like it.

B) Its all well and good that the upgrade paths aren't finished, but like I just said, isn't NOW the time to decide how the upgrade paths should flow? Not after the fact?

You do not build a house and then decide to redesign the room layout, you do it while the house is still in the blueprints phase. This is the blueprints phase and THIS is the time when we - the players - have to decide how we want this all to turn out.

Keep saying "Beta isn't finished! Beta isn't finished" like a broken record and trying to stifle new opinions and ideas - and we'll just have another 483 debacle because no one knew what a good time to give their input was, because the devs didn't have a gold set standard of where the game is going that coincides with what the players want. You go ahead and play your record, it won't stop me from trying to get the point across that beta WON'T be finished until it goes in a direction that the playerbase can enjoy.
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Malorn
1st Rear Admiral

Joined: December 11, 2003
Posts: 42
From: USA Eastern Time
Posted: 2006-03-26 12:34   
Ok, I hate to do this, but I think you may be missing the point Drafell, I don't think any of us even know if the ships are balanced, so I can't speak to that. But, it seems that Coeus isn't upset about unbalanced ships, just boring and/or annoyingly laggy ships.

And, at some level, I agree. The ships at the moment are overloaded with weapons, while at the same time those weapons are either set at weird ass angles or, in the case of smaller ships, have no effect on the enemy anyway. Basically, while I know that larger ships will always be stronger in terms of raw power, it feels at if smaller ships are losing all value.

Now, according to Jack, ships configs have yet to be messed with. In which case I am perfectly happy to sit back and let them do their job when they are ready to start on it. But I don't agree at all that ships configs should be left alone. They need work, and we somehow need to recapture the joyous thrill that was present in large battles where 60 ships would be involved in one firefight.

Right now, they're aren't ever 60 people on; and if they were on, they'd all just die of lag if they were in the same system. And I don't know how that thrill can be recaptured, but I very-much hope that it is possible.

To me, it seems we face three main problems that remove or reduce the enjoyment of the game.

(A) The lag. Which can get so bad that you can't fly in a straight line to save your life, as has been proven by the number of times people have flown into a planet.

(B) The unbalanced ships. Newbies have little or no chance against a stronger player; nor do they even have any effect in most cases. This may be fixable, but it does reduce the enjoyment of the game when the new players don't have a prayer of doing anything useful other then bomb and build. And maybe repair, once they get enough pres.

(C) The refusal to engage. I've noticed this more and more in recent times. Players will sit around, attacking planets, and when someone comes to defend a planet, they either kill them, if they're stronger, or leave, if they are facing anything close to an even fight. Then they wait, and attack a different planet, repeat constantly. A player ends up running all over the place chasing people away from planets, and getting no pres for his efforts. In fact, all he gets is annoyance. Or he can play the same game, and annoy the enemy out of their mind.

The trouble seems to be centered around planets, and the ease with which they are taken over or glassed. Basically, I've had planets that I couldn't even reach before they fell, something that annoyed the hell out of me. Other times I'd spend an hour or so building a planet. And then come back a day later to find it empty again. Not even taken, just empty. More pres for the bombers.

It is stuff like this that detracts from *my* enjoyment of the game. I'm sure you guys have other things. And feel free to post them. Let's try not to argue and just figure out what is really bothering us, then we can argue.

I know that bombers enjoy blowing up planets. And that's a part of the game too. But taking or bombing a well defended planet should take at least several people, not a one-man solo operation. These are planets for god's sake, not ships or stations. Yet their weapons suck @ss compared to ship based stuff. I have never, not once, been killed or even badly damaged by a planet, unless you count lagging and running into it.

Planets would have huge defense batteries, with many times the range and power of ship-based crap. They would be drawing on huge generators, rather then the tiny ones that can be fitted on ships. A beam weapon could have a mile long focusing chamber built into the crust of the planet. And key protective installations could be buried under 20 miles of solid rock.

This only makes sense, and even nukes can't seriously bother something built under that much rock. I'm not saying that it would solve all the problems, I already said I don't know an easy answer. But it is rather messed up. It takes two hours of building to completely rebuild a planet, it takes less then half an hour to glass the same planet. And I think the bombing gives as good, or better, pres then the building. Thus players will bomb, since players, as a whole, will do whatever gives them the most pres in the shortest time.

Now I know I've complained and whined, and I know that all players aren't like this. But these are my problems, what's your's?

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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy


Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11180
From: Bristol, England
Posted: 2006-03-26 15:38   
Quote:

On 2006-03-26 12:34, Malorn wrote:


(A) The lag. Which can get so bad that you can't fly in a straight line to save your life, as has been proven by the number of times people have flown into a planet.




The removal of resources should help a lot with the server load, but untill it's put live, no one will ever know.

Quote:


(B) The unbalanced ships. Newbies have little or no chance against a stronger player; nor do they even have any effect in most cases. This may be fixable, but it does reduce the enjoyment of the game when the new players don't have a prayer of doing anything useful other then bomb and build. And maybe repair, once they get enough pres.




Scout owns everything in 1.483. And another point to make is that newbies SHOULDN'T have a chance against a bigger ship. I'm sorry to say this, but they should NOT be coming near dreadnaughts or cruisers or the like. They can fight players of their own rank effectivly, as bigger ships have harder times hitting smaller ships, but you CANNOT ask the developers to make smaller ships hit bigger ships for a fair ammount of damage, just LOOK at what it's done to 1.483. People are chosing scouts and the like over dreadnaughts, and that shouldn't be the case. The point in ranking up is that you get BETTER ships. Dreadnaughts are BEASTS, they should obliterate anything smaller than a cruiser with EASE (destroyers obviously not so easy). They have weapon arrays the size of the SUN for God's sake, and you're saying a lowly newbie should be able to do something against one? Smaller ships owning bigger ones in 1.483 is BAD, and Uber kluth dessies owning everything in 1.480 was BAD. History tells us that smaller ships being able to own bigger ships or have an effect on them usually ends up going wrong, or bad.

Newbie server is there for a reason, for them to be able to play against people of their own rank without being owned by getting too close to a dread. When they understand to stay the HELL away from bigger ships, they can join the MV, or learn that lesson quickly in that MV.

Quote:


(C) The refusal to engage. I've noticed this more and more in recent times. Players will sit around, attacking planets, and when someone comes to defend a planet, they either kill them, if they're stronger, or leave, if they are facing anything close to an even fight. Then they wait, and attack a different planet, repeat constantly. A player ends up running all over the place chasing people away from planets, and getting no pres for his efforts. In fact, all he gets is annoyance. Or he can play the same game, and annoy the enemy out of their mind.



Lone players can't bomb enemy planets in 1.484. If they do, it takes a LONG while to do, and chances are, they'll be SEVERALY damaged by the time it's even theirs. So you're in for an easy kill if it's just them trying to bomb alone.


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Maskerade
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy


Joined: March 21, 2002
Posts: 638
From: Canada
Posted: 2006-03-26 16:22   
Jack and Coeus agree on atleast one point, or so I read. Coeus' basic concern about unbalanced ships is reinforced by Jack's longer description.
Quote:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



(B) The unbalanced ships. Newbies have little or no chance against a stronger player; nor do they even have any effect in most cases. This may be fixable, but it does reduce the enjoyment of the game when the new players don't have a prayer of doing anything useful other then bomb and build. And maybe repair, once they get enough pres.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Scout owns everything in 1.483. And another point to make is that newbies SHOULDN'T have a chance against a bigger ship. I'm sorry to say this, but they should NOT be coming near dreadnaughts or cruisers or the like. They can fight players of their own rank effectivly, as bigger ships have harder times hitting smaller ships, but you CANNOT ask the developers to make smaller ships hit bigger ships for a fair ammount of damage, just LOOK at what it's done to 1.483. People are chosing scouts and the like over dreadnaughts, and that shouldn't be the case. The point in ranking up is that you get BETTER ships. Dreadnaughts are BEASTS, they should obliterate anything smaller than a cruiser with EASE (destroyers obviously not so easy). They have weapon arrays the size of the SUN for God's sake, and you're saying a lowly newbie should be able to do something against one? Smaller ships owning bigger ones in 1.483 is BAD, and Uber kluth dessies owning everything in 1.480 was BAD. History tells us that smaller ships being able to own bigger ships or have an effect on them usually ends up going wrong, or bad.

Newbie server is there for a reason, for them to be able to play against people of their own rank without being owned by getting too close to a dread. When they understand to stay the HELL away from bigger ships, they can join the MV, or learn that lesson quickly in that MV.



It is a valid concern, but as pointed out we can only work with what is in Beta up to this point. At this point you'll have to accept teh wait and see approach as Beta has only just begun.

edit: resizing
[ This Message was edited by: Maskerade {C?} on 2006-03-26 16:23 ]


[ This Message was edited by: Maskerade {C?} on 2006-03-26 16:24 ]



[small][ This Message was edited by: Maskerade {C?} on 2006-03-26 16:26 ][/small]


[ This Message was edited by: Maskerade {C?} on 2006-03-26 16:27 ]
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy


Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11180
From: Bristol, England
Posted: 2006-03-26 19:38   
Levels are hidden and set by hull now, so smaller ships will ALWAYS have lower damaging, but better tracking weapons.

Suited for small v small, but small v big, just won't do diddly squat. Likewise, big v small is going to be difficult, because of the crappy tracking, except on beams, and if someone gets that close anyway... Haha, they deserve to die.
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Malorn
1st Rear Admiral

Joined: December 11, 2003
Posts: 42
From: USA Eastern Time
Posted: 2006-03-27 11:08   
Quote:

On 2006-03-26 15:38, BackSlash wrote:

Lone players can't bomb enemy planets in 1.484. If they do, it takes a LONG while to do, and chances are, they'll be SEVERALY damaged by the time it's even theirs. So you're in for an easy kill if it's just them trying to bomb alone.





Ok, I'm afraid to say this just isn't true. It may be that way later, that may be the intent; but currently I can take a planet in a ICC light transport; a fully defended planet. I've done this twice so far, and the only time I died was lagging and hitting the planet. So, the solo cap is currently still very, very possible; especially so, since I am not very good at flying transports or bombers.

So, if I can do *that*, think what better skilled players will be able to do.

Quote:

On 2006-03-26 15:38, BackSlash wrote:


Scout owns everything in 1.483. And another point to make is that newbies SHOULDN'T have a chance against a bigger ship. I'm sorry to say this, but they should NOT be coming near dreadnaughts or cruisers or the like. They can fight players of their own rank effectivly, as bigger ships have harder times hitting smaller ships, but you CANNOT ask the developers to make smaller ships hit bigger ships for a fair ammount of damage, just LOOK at what it's done to 1.483. People are chosing scouts and the like over dreadnaughts, and that shouldn't be the case. The point in ranking up is that you get BETTER ships. Dreadnaughts are BEASTS, they should obliterate anything smaller than a cruiser with EASE (destroyers obviously not so easy). They have weapon arrays the size of the SUN for God's sake, and you're saying a lowly newbie should be able to do something against one? Smaller ships owning bigger ones in 1.483 is BAD, and Uber kluth dessies owning everything in 1.480 was BAD. History tells us that smaller ships being able to own bigger ships or have an effect on them usually ends up going wrong, or bad.

Newbie server is there for a reason, for them to be able to play against people of their own rank without being owned by getting too close to a dread. When they understand to stay the HELL away from bigger ships, they can join the MV, or learn that lesson quickly in that MV.





Ok first of all, I was talking about the Beta, not the MV. And in the beta, scout doesn't own, nor should it. But, scout is also fragging useless, unless perhaps beacons are going to make a comeback. And newbie server is all very well. except when their aren't more then one or two newbies.

And yes, scouts shouldn't have a prayer of a chance against a dread or even a dessie . . . unless you have 20 of them. The basic point I'm trying to make is that even in large numbers, newbies don't make a difference. In large numbers, even smaller ships would wear down larger vessels. This should be all the more true, with dessies and such, which currently can't even scratch paint.

Also, weapon arrays the size of the SUN? What the hell are you flying and where can I get one? I've seen a lot of dreads and they don't seem that big. And if they are that big, how in the hell are we building them so fast?

But, I also noticed you didn't even address my point about planets. If dreads should have powerful weapons, wouldn't a planet have even larger, and more powerful weapons? Or do you disagree with my points about planets?

Also, @Maskerade, I *am* only working with what's in Beta currently, and I'm trying to find the problems, holes, mistakes, and ways to make it better. Isn't that the point of testing?



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Drafell
Grand Admiral
Mythica

Joined: May 30, 2003
Posts: 2449
From: United Kingdom
Posted: 2006-03-27 12:27   
Quote:

A) It is the whole theory of "Beta isn't finished, so stfu" gave us 483, and I will have no party to just sitting idly by while things just go their own way without giving some input.



For one, that is incorrect. The 1.483 we play was never tested in Beta. Most of the updates that cause the problems were performed live. I never saw any devs saying "Beta isnt finished, so STFU". The truth is that some of the live fixes screwed the game over more than they helped, and due to other personal commitments, the Devs ran out of time in which to fix these problems. Unfortunately we got left with an unfinished game version (whats new?).

There are a few major changes to the game systems that are being introduced with 1.484. As of yet, we are not in a position to commence even Phase One of the testing. This is more a proof test of the current coding, to help make sure it is functionally correct and that it is an intuitive system to use. Once this system is fully in place, the work on the ships themsevles can commence, and we can get to addressing all the issues that the players have with them.

If I have any input into this, then I personally will not back any version going live until an experienced group of players has gone through every ship, and tweaked its layouts so that the stock versions are functional and fulfill a useful role within the game. And ships that do not fit into this should be removed or reworked. Care should also be taken to make surre that roles arent duplicated within the same Faction, and to keep each Faction in 'theme' with thier overall playstyle.

A big problem with your suggestion of reverting to old ship layouts is that they are not compatible with the new weapon systems, damage values and upgrade system.

I would like to reassure you that Richard has not given up on DarkSpace, and that the development team have learned a lot from mistakes made in the past. None of them want to go through the same mistakes yet again.
At the forefront is what is best for the future of DarkSpace, and that remains the core focus for the team.
With this in mind, I wouldn't be suprised if there was some kind of news about DarkSpace soonish (Two Weeks™?), although thats more a case of speculation on my part.

Meanwhile, keep up all the good workwith the testing, and try to have a little faith in what the Staff are trying to do an acheive.

- Draf


[ This Message was edited by: Drafell on 2006-03-27 12:28 ]
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Borgie
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black


Joined: August 15, 2005
Posts: 2256
From: close by
Posted: 2006-03-27 15:05   
all i gotta say is im liking what i see so far
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Lord DowneyBUM (UK)
Fleet Admiral

Joined: January 13, 2003
Posts: 437
From: London England
Posted: 2006-03-28 02:33   
Whilst taking on board all the above, a couple of quick points.
We had about 7 to 8 on beta last night. testing to near destruction.
Dreads. much better, but my god the mega weapon is lethal.
Bombing. Damn hard now, which is good. (dont know about the tranny rushes, havent tried)
Repairing. Subs will have a field day. A good sub will make some very decent pres. Therfore eliminating some of the concerns over lower ranks being culled into submission. When they want combat experience then of course they can play hit and run etc. But they should be helping the main battleforce stay alive. ps. like the retrieval of ordering reps on systems.

really like the new modding system. Easy, quick and fruitful. I hate sitting around searching for mod planets in MV and then waiting for spare parts.

Overall, In my opinion Beta is heading in the right direction.
Make it so.




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Peter Wiggin
Midshipman

Joined: November 10, 2005
Posts: 636
Posted: 2006-04-26 13:07   
Quote:

On 2006-03-27 11:08, Malorn wrote:
Ok, I'm afraid to say this just isn't true. It may be that way later, that may be the intent; but currently I can take a planet in a ICC light transport; a fully defended planet. I've done this twice so far, and the only time I died was lagging and hitting the planet. So, the solo cap is currently still very, very possible; especially so, since I am not very good at flying transports or bombers.

So, if I can do *that*, think what better skilled players will be able to do.



Yes, it is very easy to cap a planet with a transport, but that is different. Bombing is reduced, but like in the old days(480/481) you could use a bunch of trannies to cap a planet.. you still can.. In 484 it would be the equivalent to neuting a planet, you dont do any damage to the planet, but you still get it. And if there is a dictor base, anything but the kluth transports will die before they even reach the planet.. if the planet def is built right.
I capped 3 planets with an advanced carrier, and with the cloak time, almost died. If I were in an ICC transport trying to cap that planet(with kluth def/ugto def/icc def) I would die before i even got within dropping range, because of the fact that ICC missles, ugto fighters, and kluth beams are strong enough to kill a little tranny. Against a planet without a dictor, yes it would be easier with icc or ugto transports, or if the planet def was built.. not so well.. but the bombing, as I have found out, cannot be done solo. At least not at VA level..

I think the bombing overhaul done was actually useful.. one person's cloud bombs(kluth TK bombs) can take a shield down to about 10%(from 150), but by the time u get more bombs, the shield is already up again. You need a supply ship and/or another bomber to help
Unless there is a secret in bombing in this patch that i dont know about lol


also, I have found bio bombs dont seem to go thru the shield.. I bombed articus with bio bombs.. and set them to hit the inf.. about 5 of the bombs exploded on the surface, but did no damage to the infantry... it killed about 5 population, but nothing to the inf O_o.. anyways, just wondering why that was..

while im at it, I must say.. Assault Cruisers.. SUCK!... no cannons? wtf..
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