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Forum Index » » Beta Testing Discussion » » The Differences of Guerrilla and Lightning Warfare
 Author The Differences of Guerrilla and Lightning Warfare
Binks
1st Rear Admiral

Joined: November 28, 2003
Posts: 469
Posted: 2005-06-28 11:09   
Okay, before I say anything else I plan on this being a long post...and since many DS players have the attention span of a ADD goldfish I'll summarize my points right before the conclusion.

Now then, I believe that the K'luth faction is being ripped off by having it's battle focus be Guerrilla, or Hit and Run warfare. There are three main reasons that I believe this is the wrong type of warfare to give any faction, first off guerrilla warfare is one of the worst ways for a nation-state to wage war as it does not allow you to effectively hold ground and defend your assest against the enemy. In addition guerrilla warfare's ultimate goal is not to cripple an enemy, but to make them leave the battlefield or delay them until a more conventional strategy becomes available. For example, the American Revolutionary War was fought with Guerrilla warfare not because it was the best way to fight, but because it was the only way for an inferior army to delay a superior army until reinforcements (the French) could arrive. Another example of how Guerrilla warfare is not designed to win but to make your opponent leave is the Vietnam War. While the United States Army remained in Vietnam, the north Vietnamese had a hard time fighting, they adapted guerrilla warfare to make the US Army leave and it worked. They did not win the war, the made one side give up. Neither of those situations should happen in Darkspace. There is no reason for a faction to leave the game as it is just that...a game. As well there should not be a battle between an inferior and superior army as all three sides should be equal. Guerrilla warfare is one of the worst tactics you can give a large nation-state when it is fighting a (supposedly) equally powerful nation-state.

In the Darkspace world most battles take many minutes, even more so in the next patch where armor becomes more powerful. For this reason Guerrilla warfare is a poor choice for any DS faction as it is designed to hit and leave within a span of under 5 minutes or so, which would not allow you to do enough damage to have a real effect. On top of that the K'luth do not have the capability to wage effective Guerrilla warfare in the current design. The main point I believe the designers have missed is that guerrillas do NOT run because they are injured or out of ammo. I shall restate that as it seems odd at first, guerrilla warriors do NOT run due to injury or lack of supplies. Guerrilla's are rarely seem or shot at in the course of their attack and therefore are unlikely to be hurt, and they typically bring more than enough ammo. The reason guerrilla's run is to escape the area BEFORE the enemy organizes to fight them. Because of that guerrilla warfare will never work for an entire faction in DS. If a K'luth wishes to achieve effective guerrilla warfare s\he would have to attack, do damage, run, and wait a couple days until the enemy was no longer waiting for an attack. Guerrilla warfare does not kill, but wound an enemy, and in the world of depots on every planet that is about as close to worthless as any effect can be. The K'luth would have to have a devoted 24/7 playerbase, a cloak with no timers and the ability to jump while using it, and weapons that can kill a ship in under 3 minutes before they could effectively wage guerrilla warfare and since that would be "overpowered" they will never be capable of waging hit and run warfare effectively.

I believe that the K'luth tactic should not be guerrilla warfare, but rather lightning or blitzkreig warfare (is I spelled that wrong sry, but I'm not an expert on german). Some people might say that blitz and guerrilla warfare are similar enough to be almost the same, and they would be wrong. Both forms of warfare rely on one of the K'luth's specialties, surprise, to achieve their opening goals. Both forms then rely on doing lots of dmg fast to achieve their secondary goals. However blitz warfare then relies of the heavy damage inflicted not as a mean of a phycological weapon but as a way of ensuring victory for that battle. Were the K'luth to utilize blitz warfare their goals would be as follows: 1. Sneak up on the enemy. 2. Surprise him and weaken him. 3. Defeat him and take his territory. The current K'luth strategy is as follows: 1. Sneak up on the enemy. 2. Surprise him and hurt him. 3. Run away. Note the difference? Only blitz warfare can make effective usage of the K'luth's cloak and allow them to take and hold territory. Just look at the examples of who used which type of warfare if you don't believe me. The North Vietnamese, and American revolutionary warriors were outmanned, outgunned, and outclassed by their opponents. They all used Guerrilla tactics because it was all they could use. However Germany, and to a lesser degree the US in desert storm, possessed better technology (cloak anyone?) and an equal or greater number of men and supplies as their opponents. Both used lightning warfare because it was the best tactic in their armory.

Summary:
1. Guerrilla Warfare is not a good tactic for a large nation-state which has to defend it's territory and is facing a (supposedly) equal opponent.

2. The K'luth cannot wage Guerrilla Warfare effectively because they do not have the weapons, armor, cloak, and speed neccissary.

3. Blitzkreig or lightning warfare would utilize the K'luth's special abilities and unique strengths better than Guerrilla warfare.

In conclusion I am of the opinion that each of the three factions should use a slightly different strategy than the other two. I have placed below what I believe these strategies should be and how I think they should be implemented.

K'luth-Blitzkreig or lightning warfare

Implementation-Remove delay on decloaking and firing, increase K'luth armor. Make the K'luth less reliant on their cloak when in battle, make it a before and after conflict device. Increase weapons power slightly and energy drain greatly.

UGTO-Standard tactics
What is it?-Normal tactics you see in a long drawn out war, squad based typically and sporting no unique strengths or weaknesses.

Implementation-Not much needed, this one was done well. All I'd say is make a few more low level ships that can help high level one's fight better. Perhaps an assault ship similar in design to the star wars bothan assault cruiser? Heavy on firepower (vs. dreads, stations and some cruisers), light on defense. That way noobs could fly alongside a dread and do damage but would have to worry about being targetted

ICC-Trench warfare/Turtle warfare
What!?-The ICC should be reliant primarily on planets for their power. For this reason they'd be "battling in trenches" because they'd be confined to a region around their planets and playing a turtle strategy, which most RTS gamers know means a defensive strategy utilizing many perminant non-mobile weapons platforms. In DS these would be planets with def bases.

Implementation-They already have shield gens and the best bombers so the take and hold planets part is good. I believe that the ICC defense bases should get a slight increase in firing rate to counter cloud bombing or CID (close infantry drops). In addition ICC planet based fighter bases should gain more fighters than other bases, perhaps 1 more per level? All these advantages should come at a cost though. In one on one out in space combat the ICC should be slightly weaker than either the Luth or Uggies.

Before you ask "Why do all this? It's hard and does nothing!" let me say that by having 3 unique strategys for the 3 unique factions battles would be come much more interesting and strategic. The UGTO would try to lure the ICC from their planets, the ICC would try to blitz enemy planets (take em fast and build em fast) and the K'luth would try to bring enough resources along so that they could destroy all enemy ships near a planet and take the planet before reinforcement arrived. Having unique strategies for each side would inprove the quality of gameplay greatly.

Thanks for reading my whole post if you did, and if you didn't I don't blame you...I'd have trouble mustering the willpower to sit and read all that...
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Galactic Navy


Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
Posted: 2005-06-28 11:21   
I actually sat and read all of that.



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Azreal
Chief Marshal

Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2801
From: United State of Texas, Houston
Posted: 2005-06-28 11:29   
I've had this debate with my fleet(s) before. Kluth are, no doubt, the guerrillas of the MV. This is good and bad, as you have stated.

I have always tried to use the cloak as a means of psychological warfare myself. Of course that is far more effective vs nebies, but we have what we have.

The cloak should always be a before and after tool, never an in battle tool. As such, with a few tweaks I believe we would have this, np.

Timed decloak is my only real gripe atm with the cloak. It is close to ideal, imo, but still needs some work.

As for more armor, I haven't any real complaints at this time. As for energy reserves, well, maybe being Kluth all this time I am just used to it. Tried an EAD out and found their energy levels just as reprehensive tho. So it's hard to say.

Assault rupters are a fairly deadly tool. Just have to be used properly. I would like to see a few MORE ships for Kluth. This would bring about the oportunity to tweak their weak areas w/o a complete overhaul of what ships we now have.

I mean, UGTO has 32 ships that I counted. I believe the Kluth have 16. Big difficiency there IMHO. But the only new ships I've seen coming are for UGTO. Strange, if you ask me.

All in all, I really feel that we (Kluth) are able to accomplish both guerrilla and lightening wars, although there will need to be a large overhaul in our tactics. With a few ship additions, that would be ALOT easier.

Nice post tho. I consider myself a pretty good tactician, and I certainly see where you are coming from. Well done.

And yes, I read the WHOLE thing


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Yitram
Fleet Admiral

Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 94
Posted: 2005-06-28 11:31   
In an odd way, I actually understood that and it made sense.
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Trekkie_zero
Cadet

Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 146
From: A state with too many A\'s....
Posted: 2005-06-28 11:45   
I have to aggree with you on everything except the guerilla warfare binks because if the kluth really really wanted to they could do a blitzkrieg strategy, ICC and UGTO could pull it off to if they wanted to. But considering that a kluth ship at times can go toe to toe with a UGTO or ICC equivalent and sometimes win and sometimes lose I kinda wonder if something else needs to be looked at...
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy


Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11180
From: Bristol, England
Posted: 2005-06-28 11:51   
The only faction capable of doing guerrilla warfare well, are the kluth, and they do it well. Azreal has shown how good a kluth pilot can be in beta, if you change your tactics to suit the faction. Before, you where able to take the hits (slightly) and dish it out all at the same time. Now you have to use the sneak tactic, sneak in, get behind the enemy and let hell loose.

The only reason kluth look rubbish/poor/handicaped in beta to you, and a lot of others, is because they are still playing the game like 1.481. I was too, even ICC and UGTO need to change their tactics, but because of the inbalance of kluth, people started flying them like the other factions, like they shouldnt do. So people are now jumping an EAD in beta, getting alpha'd and wondering why their weak armour has just been torn to shreads. I suggest you look at the tweaks made, use the new weapons, new cloak to your advantage and let hell loose. Kluth are far from at a disadvantage.
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Lord DowneyBUM (UK)
Fleet Admiral

Joined: January 13, 2003
Posts: 437
From: London England
Posted: 2005-06-28 13:15   
Excellent post Mr Binks.
Well rounded argument with pure factual evidence.
I am impressed.
Like the ideas.
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Bobamelius
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy


Joined: October 08, 2002
Posts: 2073
Posted: 2005-06-28 13:42   
ICC have some new ships too...
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Antdizzle


Joined: February 07, 2003
Posts: 860
Posted: 2005-06-28 17:46   
i wasn't going to read it, but then i saw the summary and said to myself "oh i should read this.. its not to much". I read the first line or so. I am an ADD Goldfish.
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Mithrandir
Chief Marshal

Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 1276
Posted: 2005-06-28 18:12   
I read it all.. though I think the slight taunt of ADD helped the motivation. Plus, it was well written, which helps immensely.

It like the idea in general.. but I think more specifics are needed in terms of Kluth and ICC. I will grant that I'm worried about making Kluth too powerful, since they have invisibility, which is an inherently unbalancing skill. It sounds to me like you want to strengthen them to the point where they can battle just as effectively as humans in toe-to-toe battles.. but then also have the ability to sneak in and slink out.

I'm assuming, however, that you're not thinking this, as it seems too much an advantage, as I'm sure you'd have noticed. So basically: can you clarify so I can understand what you really meant? Do you have any more specifics in mind?

And the ICC sounds interesting enough.. mainly because that was more or less the goal we had in mind with them. They're supposed to be heavier on the defense, have higher speeds to aid them in dodging, higher energy levels to sustain speeds and shields, but then the tradeoff is lower damage from weapons..
I would worry, though, that weakening them to the point where they need planetary support to be effective would be too much - they'd be easily avoided by refusing to go near planets. You can always shift the battle to some other region, where ICC aren't actively guarding - and then they'd be disadvantaged. On the other hand, planets are kind of the goal in the game, so battle always seems to eventually return to them...
I don't know; I think people would whine if they only can stay alive within 500 gu of a planet... :/

Unfortunately, going with all the whines means we'd just have three different UGTOs with different ship skins. So.. yeah.
another post with a crap ending.. need to work on that
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Binks
1st Rear Admiral

Joined: November 28, 2003
Posts: 469
Posted: 2005-06-28 20:51   
Yeah...I didn't go much into actual game implementation for two reasons...I felt others could probably do it better, and I was suffering from ADD...writing that took a lot of concentration ...but anyways, here's some more info on what I was thinking when I said luth should be blitz and ICC def...

K'luth- I feel the K'luth's strategy should be: Sneak up on enemy, get behind em,decloak, alpha, then stay behind him and fire. I'm definatly not proposing we make luth uggies with cloak, that would be WAY overpowered. Instead I'm advicating a slight increase in armor, so that they can stay in combat a bit longer, but still have the weakest armor. Give the cloak a longer (but not too much) time to cloak, but shorter (as in less than the time for an EAD to alpha you 4 times ) decloak time. I personally feel that the K'luth should be able to do a large amount of damage in the first attack, but if that first attack is poorly planned or the enemy manages to get them away from that arc then the luth would be at a disadvantage. Basicly the K'luth would have to use their stealth to get in an advantageous firing position and stay there. Failing that the luth would be a disadvantage, but not as much as now. Now, if the enemy gets a good bead on you you might as well hit j, because anything larger or your size can kill your armor very fast...The current K'luth strategy is good, but needs less reliance on the cloaking device in battle. You never saw the germans attack, vanish, then attack from another angle did you? That's because they used stealth to get in the best position from teh start so they didn't need to. Pretty much all I want really is for the luth not to need to use cloak mid-battle to stand a chance...

ICC-While I understand your arguements Mith I think your confusion stems, once more, from my ADD at the end of the post . I meant to say basicly that the ICC would be incredible at taking and holding planets, but not quite as good at 1 on 1 combat. I feel the ICC should get slightly weaker shields and maybe more powerful weapons.

Pretty much I'm thinking UGTO for noobs (most balanced faction between planets and ships), ICC being the planet grabbers (Harder ship combat, though their disadvantage would be less than luth by a good degree...a good ICC player should still beat a poor Uggie player but completely even the ICC should lose by 10% hull or so (10% hull left on uggie when ICC dies). Finally the luth would be the opposite of the ICC, tons of focus on ships and stealth and slightly weaker at planets than uggies...I don't know...every time I think of what one faction should be like it either makes them too powerful or too weak...I can see why the factions aren't always perfectly balanced, that would be a ton of work...
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Razor
Cadet

Joined: June 11, 2004
Posts: 200
From: Fayetteville, North Carolina (USA)
Posted: 2005-06-28 21:09   
Funny, but in a strange twist of fate, all of you are correct...in some form or another.

First off, my salute to Binks for a great piece. Alittle long-winded, but still a great piece of work with a great message.

As a recently retired, 22-year US Army veteran, these subjects (all tactical subjects, really) are near and dear to my heart.

A little small background...stay with me. I promise not to throw any Sun Tzu or Clausewitz theory at you! It is debateable who (famous general or Army) started either tactic (guerilla or blitzkreig "lightning war"). The United States' success in guerilla tactics, used during the American Revolution, is studied by many countries still today (it's odd that some leassons need to be re-learned....and who now is giving the lessons). The German Army in WWII perfected blitzkreig tactics (and have been studied and adopted by all major countries worldwide).

Now....who was correct (IMHO)?

Binks...in his initial assessment of guerilla tactics. You need a few GOOD players to make this tactic work....but only during certain instances...and if someone doesn't listen to the leader or get timing off...you are screwed! Case in point...ambushes (classic guerilla tactic). Psst....Any faction could use this tactic.

Backslash...in his retorte of blitzkreig tactics useage in v1.483. Psssssst...Any faction could use this tactic too! You don't have to be CEC to be a team!

Azreal (yeah...my bossman and wingmate)...for wrapping the two together for K'luth's sake.

The message should be clear. (1) The situation and desired outcome dictates what tactic (or even combinations thereof) to use. (2) Appoint a leader and ask "What is the mission?", "What can I do to help?", and do you job the best anyone has ever seen! This is especially true with blitzkreig tactics...because it's COMBINED ARMS tactics actually...we're just gonna speed the time-line up a notch!

Think of it this way. Who's your favorite band (RocK & Roll, Jazz, etc....it doesn't matter). How many band members play the same instrument...with the same octave? How many are the lead singers....at the same time? Hmnmmmmm? Different ships (and different weapons load-outs) have different uses...use them at the right time...and use them wisely.

Another way to remember this is an old adage in the military, and it goes like this, ehem, cough...cough...

"Lead, follow, or get the @#$% out of the way!"

Guerilla or Blitzkrieg....either tactic will work at the proper time. Now go get a ship that's needed now...and strike up the band.

RaZoR



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Lonectzn
Fleet Admiral

Joined: January 06, 2005
Posts: 202
Posted: 2005-06-28 21:34   
K'luth are not Guerrilla fighters. Not in the slightest.

They are the Wolfpack. A wolfpack hunts down a single target. the wolfpack is strong together but separated are weak.

Uncloaking, firing, recloaking is gonna get you a whole lot of nowhere in beta. The trick is to focus on an enemy, get into position uncloak and release hell, then recloaking or just continuing on to the next target while the enemy is temporarily broken. I don't know if you've seen it in beta, but two stock siphons can bring down a modded dread rather fast. They get in a good position, strike, and the dread is toast in a few shots. Same with the scale. I've been on K'luth a lot, and discovered generally a lead + wingman wolfpack is extremely powerful (me in siphon and another luth in scale simply annihilated two BD's). Certainly you're weak travelling alone, but together you have the ability to pick who to fight and eliminate them.

EDIT: To clarify, since someone in lobby said something to me about it, In my opinion the system you want is already in beta, it just takes a big change in the way you look at using and modding your ships. But that goes for all the factions.

[ This Message was edited by: Lonectzn on 2005-06-29 03:34 ]
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Razor
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Joined: June 11, 2004
Posts: 200
From: Fayetteville, North Carolina (USA)
Posted: 2005-06-29 08:10   
Quote "K'luth are not Guerrilla fighters. Not in the slightest."

Oh contrare! Now, as a dedicated and continuous tactic, I agree with you. And Binks clearly explained the reasons why. But as a tactic used for it's proper purpose and the proper time...no one does it better than the K'luth.

Think about it....low signature during cloak, possible ECM ships to assist, combat ships lying in wait to pounce also, a well placed minefield, Piercer 1K gu's away....do you get the picture now? This a classic DS ambush to take out a key enemy player (who has a tendency to direct jump along a cetain avenue of approach). And it (the ambush) is a tenet of guerrilla warfare.

Can all factions pull this off? Most definitely...but because of their high signatures they need more ships to provide ECM coverage. The K'luth can do this with less ships.

No one does guerrilla tactics better than the K'luth. Rely on this tactic for all situations and the K'luth will get whacked.

[ This Message was edited by: Hell RaZoR on 2005-07-01 11:35 ]
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