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[FAQ
Forum Index » » Beta Testing Discussion » » major issue with K'Luth
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 Author major issue with K'Luth
Meko
Grand Admiral

Joined: March 03, 2004
Posts: 1956
From: Vancouver
Posted: 2005-06-27 00:28   
Quote:
...but i NEVER hit hull on that AD flown by [Raven]Unknown Warrior while he knocked me down to 50% before i jumped out....



it wasnt the ships in that fight. =)
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Tael
Captain
Palestar


Joined: July 03, 2002
Posts: 3695
From: San Francisco Bay Area
Posted: 2005-06-27 00:42   
New cloak times are in.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy


Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11180
From: Bristol, England
Posted: 2005-06-27 04:46   
Quote:

On 2005-06-27 00:42, Tael wrote:
New cloak times are in.




New cloak times out please!

Takes 1 second for a station to cloak and decloak.
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Mithrandir
Chief Marshal

Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 1276
Posted: 2005-06-27 04:47   
Ok.. so me in a fully upgraded EAD, standard armor, and a Mandible was able to absolutely decimate the level 10 armor in a shot. It was like 90%+ damage to the armor in one alpha. Three shots to hit armor per facing.

Reflective armor took about twice as much to hit the hull.

ICC took about twice as long as THAT to hit - in the range of 6-10 salvo's, with shield rotation fully to the battered arc.

This was stationary, so not really real world.. but I think dread-dread battles should be pretty fair.

Cloak times seemed a bit odd.. better for the Kluth, certainly.. but the Hive Trekkie was flying was able to cloak in 3 or 4 seconds, and decloak instantly, more or less.. it was kinda frightening, honestly. Not necessarily bad, but powerful.

Also, tractor beams still work when cloaked. I'll post or confirm its in mantis later. Could make for some interesting encounters with planets courtesy of our kluth friends, if its not fixed.. though it would likely revive the popularity of Kluth at least for a little bit for those up for some mischief.
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Meko
Grand Admiral

Joined: March 03, 2004
Posts: 1956
From: Vancouver
Posted: 2005-06-27 05:47   
Quote:
Also, tractor beams still work when cloaked. I'll post or confirm its in mantis later. Could make for some interesting encounters with planets courtesy of our kluth friends, if its not fixed.. though it would likely revive the popularity of Kluth at least for a little bit for those up for some mischief.



leave the luthies tractor ability in.

I have an idea about the cloaking....

anything thats Assault.... siphons, mandables, some of the dessies, have fast decloak and regular recloak. support ships (hive, supply, blah blah) have slow un cloak and a little faster recloak.


this way if a weak ship gets jumped they can cloak, and when the assault begins, its lightning fast.


thoughts?
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Tael
Captain
Palestar


Joined: July 03, 2002
Posts: 3695
From: San Francisco Bay Area
Posted: 2005-06-27 06:28   
Found the issue with the cloak timers, the Math F had given me stated

Base Cloak * Ship Cloak Mod.

This was wrong, so the devices looked right on paper. The actual math is:
(1/Shipmod) * BaseMod = Cloak rate

So the larger the shipmod, the lower the cloakrate... Opposite of the other formula. Reworked the formulas and code.

Station will take 6 seconds to uncloak and 10 seconds to cloak.
Scouts will take 1 second to uncloak and 1.5 to recloak.


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Azreal
Chief Marshal

Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2801
From: United State of Texas, Houston
Posted: 2005-06-27 06:49   
I found a strange bug, not sure if it is limited to Kluth or not, but.....

I took a Gang, put on all ecm. It gave me a negative sig, which shoulda made me invisible. But the planet just nailed away on me, and so did the enemies that came quickly after. Either MY sig reading is off, or the game isn't recognizing I have a neg sig.

I am heading in now to retest the cloaking timers. I am already happy they are being looked at

Look, I want this game to WORK and be FAIR. I don't want any one faction to have a larger advantage over the other. DS has a steep learning curve as it is, but in my experience, I have found even Vets to have problems learning Kluth. It ain't easy. The current situation over in the MV will only get worse if folks think that Kluth are just for target practice.


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_x$witchBladex_ [1.5 Ahoy!]
Cadet

Joined: February 26, 2003
Posts: 849
From: Upstate New York
Posted: 2005-06-27 20:30   
Only issue with the cloack is this...

K'luth should be able to jump while cloacked!


/me walks away to calm down...


~Switch

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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy


Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11180
From: Bristol, England
Posted: 2005-06-27 21:43   
Quote:

On 2005-06-27 06:49, Azreal wrote:
I found a strange bug, not sure if it is limited to Kluth or not, but.....

I took a Gang, put on all ecm. It gave me a negative sig, which shoulda made me invisible. But the planet just nailed away on me, and so did the enemies that came quickly after. Either MY sig reading is off, or the game isn't recognizing I have a neg sig.

I am heading in now to retest the cloaking timers. I am already happy they are being looked at

Look, I want this game to WORK and be FAIR. I don't want any one faction to have a larger advantage over the other. DS has a steep learning curve as it is, but in my experience, I have found even Vets to have problems learning Kluth. It ain't easy. The current situation over in the MV will only get worse if folks think that Kluth are just for target practice.





When 1.481 went live, ships where made so that under a certain sig and distance, ships couldnt be detected, it was then decided that dreads should always be visable. So its for all factions, and it is fair. Nothing the size of a planet can just hide without being cloaked.

Also, jumping whilst cloaked would just give too many advantages to kluth. They could jump in, fly to the planet, uncloak, drop, recloak in however many seconds, fly out, and jump away.

[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash on 2005-06-27 21:44 ]
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whateverr
Cadet

Joined: May 13, 2004
Posts: 173
Posted: 2005-06-28 02:13   
Quote:

On 2005-06-27 21:43, BackSlash *Jack* wrote:


Also, jumping whilst cloaked would just give too many advantages to kluth. They could jump in, fly to the planet, uncloak, drop, recloak in however many seconds, fly out, and jump away.






hey... jack... why not just remove the cloak period? i mean hey luth can't do anything with it anyway... and we can always just jump really far away to hide .... if we cloak where we are in battle you know we aren't goin anywhere so no sense in doin that, plus you think we should be seen while damaged because everyone else is... even though everyone else can shoot with ecm and luth can't shoot cloaked, so it's not the same thing

but you're right... they are too uber so i think they need removed, better the devs do that than make them any less a faction to be desired to play after release
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Beast
Cadet
Sundered Weimeriners


Joined: May 27, 2002
Posts: 345
From: Wouldnt you like to know
Posted: 2005-06-28 03:55   
This is one of many reasons I will not be returning to DS as a player. I mean Dark Prophet does have a point . It,s jump in wait 7 to 10 seconds to cloak "whoops they know we are here now". Cloak move into a fleet of awaiting ships decloak fire 2 shots . wait what do I do now?? cloak or jump lets see there surly going to beacon me so cloaking will do no good, Jumping then cloaking wait........ they can still track me because of the stupid beacon. Bam I,m dead.


3 kluth respond to planet blockade. We reach the planet there is multiple dreads there and a few transports. Also more then likly a dictor. How would Kluth defend against somthing like this?? we surly cant "HANG Around!!!" Defending the planet. the Most option tobe used would more then likly Tranny rushes to our OWN planets. jump in cloak move to planet decloak try to drop before getting killed then grab another tranny.


Sorry Kluth have nurfed and reduced to a faction of Hit and Die



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Mithrandir
Chief Marshal

Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 1276
Posted: 2005-06-28 05:35   
Dark Prophet, I think you're getting too emotional about the issue.

Ok, conflicting problems here:

1. Cloak allows Kluth to choose the time and the place to attack, without prior warning.
a. This is good during battle, and they should be able to jump in cloaked, and decloak instantly. If they're a bit weaker in the long term, this stealth and first strike will balance them.
b. This is bad in terms of planets. It means they can theoretically waltz up to any planet and drop on it with impunity. They also will get a minor boost to bombing, since they only have to become visible when they start the actual bombing; lining up and whatnot can be attack-free.

You see we're balancing with two issues here, which are naturally conflicting. We want Kluth to have a powerful cloak for attacking, but a weak cloak for planets... or else you'll have a kluth who can do some decent fighting, and mow over the MV. The alternatives are basically: balanced against planets but insta-owned by enemies, balanced for battle but dominate the MV, or try something in the middle and piss you off.

We're doing our best to balance them so that they work well as a faction against all types of operations in the MV. If you're unhappy with the way its turning out, then you're invited to give us feedback.. but please try to keep in mind all the possible roles it will be playing, and let that shape your feedback and discussions.
I think part of the problem here is that Humans are worried about their planets staying captured for any bit of time, while K'Luth are worried about their ships staying alive for any bit of time.

Anyway, keep the constructive feedback coming, but try to avoid the arguments this thread started leaning toward..
Thanks
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy


Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11180
From: Bristol, England
Posted: 2005-06-28 05:40   
Quote:

On 2005-06-28 03:55, Beast wrote:
This is one of many reasons I will not be returning to DS as a player. I mean Dark Prophet does have a point . It,s jump in wait 7 to 10 seconds to cloak "whoops they know we are here now". Cloak move into a fleet of awaiting ships decloak fire 2 shots . wait what do I do now?? cloak or jump lets see there surly going to beacon me so cloaking will do no good, Jumping then cloaking wait........ they can still track me because of the stupid beacon. Bam I,m dead.


3 kluth respond to planet blockade. We reach the planet there is multiple dreads there and a few transports. Also more then likly a dictor. How would Kluth defend against somthing like this?? we surly cant "HANG Around!!!" Defending the planet. the Most option tobe used would more then likly Tranny rushes to our OWN planets. jump in cloak move to planet decloak try to drop before getting killed then grab another tranny.


Sorry Kluth have nurfed and reduced to a faction of Hit and Die







ABsolutly BULL.

Me and Drafell where going around in the MV WITH the broken cloak times from several updates ago, and we were OWNING everything, several dreads came at us, we cloaked, repositioned, and went after his rear. Its damned effective and a whole lot of fun. Dark and Beast, I hate to say it, but if your dying in those ships, your obviously not using them 100% right.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal

Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2801
From: United State of Texas, Houston
Posted: 2005-06-28 06:51   
Look, Kluth will have to readjust some tactics. It's not so difficult, really.

That's what Razr and I have been doing as well as testing...developing new tactics to use with our new ships. I am not 100% happy with my faction atm, but honestly, I wouldn't expect to be. There will be pros and cons to each faction.

My only real wish list item atm is for a few new ships. Kluth already have the least amount, and I noticed that there are new models for UGTO. So I am waiting to see if Kluth gets any as well.

Oh. And I DO have one more real complaint. BOMBS ON A GANG. The Ganglia has always been used as Kluth's Command Vessel ever since I started. Now, w/o a repair or a build, and with bombs, I really see the Ganglia sitting there with mothballs. I really think that ship needs to be looked at again, personally.

Also, I noticed that the cloak appears to be operating backwards. Faster cloak than decloak. Maybe it was just me. But that's what it seemed like.

Az
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Mithrandir
Chief Marshal

Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 1276
Posted: 2005-06-28 07:00   
I thought it was supposed to have it a build, but I asked Tael and it isn't - that's its final form, apparently. Though if you say it needs more work, I'll mention it to him in case he didn't read this. We need to fiddle with kluth bombers anyway..

And while its true that you have to reveal yourself when you jump in, I was still having to struggle a bit to fight kluth when they'd drop in and out of visibility.

A nice option would be while decloaking, you get the beep and you can see them appearing... but you can't target them until they're fully decloaked - basically, you're even in terms of who gets to fire first. Seems a decent balance.

[ This Message was edited by: Mithrandir on 2005-06-29 05:28 ]
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