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[FAQ
Forum Index » » Beta Testing Discussion » » Upgrade Live to 1.481 now
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 Author Upgrade Live to 1.481 now
WhiteWolf
Cadet

Joined: July 18, 2001
Posts: 338
Posted: 2003-08-04 13:11   
The beta is already more capable than 1.480. It can handle more clients, and disconnects far less frequently.

1.480 is unplayable for me, but 1.481 is fine.

Sure, there'll be problems with bring 1.481 into the main servers now---but--

I) We'll generate more crash reports. This will help development
II) We'll be able to play more. No stuck in gate, fewer connection issues. This will help the player base.
III) We'll get to play with the new cannons+new Kluth. More balance data generated for the dev team to evalute changes for 1.482

1.480 is hopelessly broken, and unplayable for some of us. I resubscribed yesterday, logged into the MV, got stuck in gate twice, got discoed twice, and got one of those stupid errors where you bring a ship out of storage, and it simply vanishes into the ether.

I remember why I said I wasn't going to subscribe till the patch.

Beta, on the other hand, seems to be a much better (and more playable experience). There just aren't enough people in beta to make it worthwhile, and probably not even people to do a proper load test.

Save Darkspace! Bring the beta into the main servers!
Delay the balance patch! Bring the beta into the main servers, and then issue as many small 'fix it patches' as necessary, the way Darkspace used to operate.

This would seem to alleviate pressure on Faustus, too.


Just my 20000 cents
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Demorian
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy


Joined: October 06, 2001
Posts: 3405
From: Charlotte, North Carolina
Posted: 2003-08-04 13:13   
No.

Every patch must have a good week of final testing, especially one as revolutionary and all-changing as this. Not all bugs have been weeded out yet. We want this to be a flawless release.

-Dem
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Darksworde
Marshal
Pitch Black


Joined: September 06, 2002
Posts: 806
From: The Zoo
Posted: 2003-08-04 13:15   
did we just skip a year and hit April 1st 2004?

Coz that sounded like an april foolz joke Whitewolf
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g0ds s0ldier
Grand Admiral
Pitch Black


Joined: October 24, 2002
Posts: 954
Posted: 2003-08-04 13:16   
Quote:

On 2003-08-04 13:13, Demorian wrote:

Not all bugs have been weeded out yet.




What he means is Kluth hasnt been done getting nerfed yet, and humans havent finished getting all their new advantages. thx.
_________________
Pitch Black

Smith
Fleet Admiral

Joined: October 13, 2002
Posts: 320
From: Pittsburgh
Posted: 2003-08-04 13:16   
heh 1 week dem.this had been in beta since last november.remember when it was really suppose to come out.last november!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Demorian
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy


Joined: October 06, 2001
Posts: 3405
From: Charlotte, North Carolina
Posted: 2003-08-04 13:17   
Funny funny laugh laugh, g0ds.

-Dem
_________________


WhiteWolf
Cadet

Joined: July 18, 2001
Posts: 338
Posted: 2003-08-04 13:35   
Quote:

On 2003-08-04 13:13, Demorian wrote:
No.

Every patch must have a good week of final testing, especially one as revolutionary and all-changing as this. Not all bugs have been weeded out yet. We want this to be a flawless release.

-Dem



1.480 is not a flawless release. At this point, 1.481 is better than 1.480

Don't kid yourself and think that 1.481 will be a flawless release. It won't. No way. Not a snowball's chance in heck. <Insert your favorite idiom here>.

If it goes into the live servers now, it'll get better testing than it is getting now. It'll get better testing when it is close to final status.

The normal 1.480 servers are basically useless. 1.481 really is just an intermediate step to the end result, which will be 1.482 (new fighters, new platforms, redesigned ships, etc)

I do understand that not all the bugs have been weeded out yet. But it is far less buggy than 1.480

Back in the day, Faustus would fix a bug, and then upload the change to the main servers. Over, and over, and over again. Darkspace improved through small changes.

The rationale for not doing this with 1.481 was that the universe server was such a major rewrite of the server backend that it was not possible to develop it in an evolutionary fashion. Major work had to be done, before it could even be brought into an alpha stage.

Well, we are past that now. It works plenty fine---It works better than 1.480


If you are worried about appearances, call it 1.480u----u for universe server test.

Advantages of going live now:
More stable MV.
Fewer discoes.
No stuck in jumpgate problems. No stuck in transition between system problems.
More stable scenario servers.
We can try fleet wars again (the whole multiple DB connection issue)
Placates the player base.
Proper stress testing, and more (and better) bug reports
More combat data generated for balance analysis---this is very important for the dev team.


Disadvantages of going live now:
1.481 still has a lot of moderate/low level bugs
1.481 has unknown balance problems
MV wipe
Possible incompatability issues with various hardware configurations
Unknown capacitiy of 1.481 to still handle many clients
Unknown lag issues with many clients

In an ideal world, we would stick with the properly working current version, until the next version was ready---But

We know 1.481 can't handle more than 20-30 clients at any given time
We know that 1.481 lags to a halt with certain reproducable conditions
We know that 1.481 has serious balance problems
We know that 1.481 has serious connectivity problems, even with only a few people online (stuck in gate and discoed randomly)

That leaves: MV wipe, and possibile incompatability issues with various hardware configurations.

MV wipes are good for business----They start more combat in the mv. This'll be especially true if the servers are able to handle large scale combat. We know that the current servers can not handle large scale combat. 1.481 is guaranteed to be a least a little bit better.

Hardware incompatability? Odds are, this will not be fixable until 1.481 goes live anyways. Might as well figure out the hardware bugs now, then wait till 1.481 is 'done'.

If we wait till 1.481 is 'done', than hardware issues will have to be either a)pushed back to 1.482, or b) implemented in a series of smaller patches issued between 1.481-1.482

Either way, we'll see incremental patches in the future. Might as well see incremental patches now.

Remember, the current 1.480 code is effectively broken. Darkspace can not handle its playerbase. 1.481 may allow it to happen. You never see more than 10-20 players online at any given time.

Risking the player experience of those 10-20 people is no big deal, and people may actually be more interested in seeing the patch, I bet that the mod/dev/admin community will be pleasantly surprised by the players willingness to deal with bugs/balance issues in a post-patch world.

Its NOT going to perfect, one way or another. Its NOT even going to introduce some element of finality into darkspace. The balance patch is still on the horizon. Extra features were cut from 1.481.

The small number of active players will welcome the patch, even if it is buggy.

Implement it in a transparent fashion.

Set a date. (/me pulls date out of a hat). Thursday. Say something like this:
"MV will be wiped on Thursday, XX:XX, GMT. 1.481rc1 will be installed on the MV servers. MV will be restored to functioning status at YY:YY, GMT. Please note that that this is not a final release of 1.481, but a release candidate, aimed at more comprehensive testing of the new 1.481 technologies, and an effort to bring more functionality to the MV servers. Please file all complaints, comments, etc, in the Developer Feedback forum. Whines will be deleted, constructive comments will be appreciated. Please file as many error reports as necessary."
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  ICQ status
Pope
Fleet Admiral

Joined: June 11, 2002
Posts: 2449
From: World of tomorrow
Posted: 2003-08-04 13:40   
i really only skipped through this all, but what is your point in trying to persue the release of a game engine with massive synchronization problems and totally unbalanced weaponry?
you'll have to explain that.

_________________


WhiteWolf
Cadet

Joined: July 18, 2001
Posts: 338
Posted: 2003-08-04 13:50   
Quote:

On 2003-08-04 13:40, sono wrote:
i really only skipped through this all, but what is your point in trying to persue the release of a game engine with massive synchronization problems and totally unbalanced weaponry?
you'll have to explain that.


Umm---because we already have massive synchronization problems and totally unbalanced weaponry?
Release 1.481rc1 now.

1.481rc2 can be released the very NEXT day, and reduce the cannon damage.

1.481rc2.1 can be released the following day, and fix another issue
1.481rc2.2 can be released after that, and provide a minor bug fix here--
1.481rc2.x can be released after that, proviging another minor bug fix.

Sono---here's my reasoning. Its stupid to say that we are going to wait till 1.481 is 'perfect', and then release it. It'll never be perfect. Its impossible for it to be perfect.

Big, massive, 'revolutionary' releases never, ever, work.

Instead, small, little patches tend to be more effective.

1.481 was delayed for so long because the universe server required a major rewrite. Fine. Can't implement a major rewrite in small steps.

The universe server is done. All the other stuff that needs to be done (bug fixes, etc.) can wait.
Balance issues can be resolved one by one. Bug fixes can be resolved one by one.

Back in the Golden Age of Darkspace, when there were 50-80 people playing fleet admiral games during peak times, and 20-40 people in the MV, patches were made weekly or so. The game was evolutionary. Every week, we would talk about what would be implemented next. Indeed, even the advertising literature talked about the game being evolutionary.

Life was good, and Darkspace was fun.

It wasn't about the game being buggy. The game WAS buggy at that time. But it didn't matter, because it was constantly changing.

Ergo: Release 1.481 now, and patch it regularly, implementing small fixes often (both bug fixes and balance fixes).

As this development work is ongoing, the dev team can work upon the major balance correction, which will alter both the weapons and the ship configurations.

1.481, in its current state, is superior to 1.480. 1.480 is unplayable. The connectivity issues are too serious, and the situation seems to be degenerating.
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  ICQ status
Axianda The Royal
Fleet Admiral
Terra Squadron

Joined: November 20, 2001
Posts: 4273
From: Axianda
Posted: 2003-08-04 13:53   
NO!!!!

I did not wait 9+ months for a buggy release just because a few ppl cant wait anymore.
If its going to be released i want i bug free.
Although a 10mil credit waiting compensation will do nicely to

_________________

- Axi

g0ds s0ldier
Grand Admiral
Pitch Black


Joined: October 24, 2002
Posts: 954
Posted: 2003-08-04 14:05   
Just remember, if you we get 10mill Creds each for the wait i will still be #1 with just about 10mill above 2nd place. you cannot take me down.
_________________
Pitch Black

WhiteWolf
Cadet

Joined: July 18, 2001
Posts: 338
Posted: 2003-08-04 14:06   
Quote:

On 2003-08-04 13:53, Axianda *XO* wrote:
NO!!!!
I did not wait 9+ months for a buggy release just because a few ppl cant wait anymore.
If its going to be released i want i bug free.
Although a 10mil credit waiting compensation will do nicely to


Your not thinking with your head. Try and use your brain.
It won't be bug free. I assure you of that.
Moo3 was delayed YEARS so it would be released bug free. 100 of bugs cropped up the week it was released. Moo3 was also deployed by a development team (a fairly competent development team) with plenty of cash to burn, and plenty of programmers.

There are plenty of examples like this. How about Daikitana? Or the BattleCruiser series of games? Or any other number of games?

These games were developed by competent programmers, with large development budgets. They still had massive problems.

I don't (and no one else should, either) expect Faustus to be able to put together a bug-free major rewrite. The best (and IMHO, definetly good enough) we can hope for is progress towards a more playable, and more enjoyable, game.

A project which works 99% in beta may only work 75% in live. We might as well put 1.481 live now, so that the issues that will affect it will be obvious.

Additionally---the active player base has shrank DRAMATICALLY. Bugs in 1.481 live can only really affect 20-30 people. Worst case scenario, the playbase stays as is.

Best case scenario? 1.481 fixes the reputation of darkspace. Even if 1.481 is buggy.

Especially if it can handle many more clients---even if other aspects of the game are buggy.

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  ICQ status
Spiritlift
Grand Admiral

Joined: January 12, 2003
Posts: 704
From: Australia, Hell
Posted: 2003-08-04 14:06   
atm alot of us cant logon to beta or release gcql so yeah well ...

umm anyway .. tell me whitewolf . what use it is to pay $18 AUS a month to play something that is no fun ??
cuase from my personal opinion of the beta iz quite simply it is no fun.
(I have had it since F released it & Played many many hours on it) & Juz in case you have an excuse for recent updates .. i recently spent 12hr hit on it & only ended up building as it was pretty much the only thing to do .

@Faustus .. Keep 1.476 up .. If you can add uniserver & fix a few things like the PD toggle & interface .. implement a faction balance plan & maybe add some new ships or weapons .. aside from that Leave as is ..nerfing everything that makes the game fun will only drive players away .
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Demorian
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy


Joined: October 06, 2001
Posts: 3405
From: Charlotte, North Carolina
Posted: 2003-08-04 14:15   
Wolf...

Do you realize that in 1.481 currently, ships can disappear completely without warning, you can see other people doing damage to you but you can't fire back, ships vanish from view at a certain angle because of a rendering error...troops do not go all the way up to 32 as they are supposed to on a planet... EMP cannons do far too much damage currently...

...the list goes on. We all appreciate your fervor and your thinking, but face it... 1.481 isn't coming out until its ready. That much has already been decided.

-Dem
_________________


WhiteWolf
Cadet

Joined: July 18, 2001
Posts: 338
Posted: 2003-08-04 14:19   
Quote:

On 2003-08-04 14:15, Demorian wrote:
...the list goes on. We all appreciate your fervor and your thinking, but face it... 1.481 isn't coming out until its ready. That much has already been decided.
-Dem


This I realize
Quote:

Wolf...
Do you realize that in 1.481 currently, ships can disappear completely without warning, you can see other people doing damage to you but you can't fire back, ships vanish from view at a certain angle because of a rendering error...troops do not go all the way up to 32 as they are supposed to on a planet... EMP cannons do far too much damage currently...


In 1.480, ships can disappear completely without warning (discoes), you can see other people doing damage to you, you CAN fire back, but your projectiles don't do any damage to them----Some people experience serious rendering errors on higher end Radeon graphics cards. Troops don't capture a planet until all the enemy troops die, which can take forever, and troops can't capture death stars.

Oh, and BTW: Kluth equipped with CL2Ks do far too much damage currently.

You have not indicated, in any way, that the issues with 1.481 are any worse with 1.480.

The connectivity issues are almost certainly better in 1.481. 1.480 is unplayable for me (and others) in the mv.

Buggy gameplay with more stable connectivity is better than slightly less buggy gameplay with poor connectivity.
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