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 Author Ship Tiers and You
SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral

Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
Posted: 2013-01-03 02:56   
Quote:

On 2013-01-03 00:59, Jim Starluck wrote:
Oh, and by the way? That game where you guess a ship tier, type, faction and role combo and I'll give you the layout if there is one? That's good for everyone, for the rest of the thread.


Hmm in that case let's "guess" the role combos that you *cough* already hinted at *cough*.

How will the
UGTO Tier 2 Carrier/Cannon Dread
compare with the
ICC Tier 3 Carrier/Cannon/EWAR Dread?
_________________


Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights


Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2032
From: Michigan
Posted: 2013-01-03 13:25   
Quote:

On 2013-01-03 00:59, Jim Starluck wrote:
Oh, and by the way? That game where you guess a ship tier, type, faction and role combo and I'll give you the layout if there is one? That's good for everyone, for the rest of the thread.



Are we going to be seeing a Cannon/Cannon layout for a T2 ICC Destroyer? Something like that would be perfectly fitting, though I'm not sure if 2x the same role is something you'll be doing or not. I can also see a beam/beam T2 luth Destroyer fitting them, or a Torp/Torp UGTO Destroyer.

Though I AM wondering what will be done with Scouts since you already said they'll be limited to T1 only, it seems like each faction would probably have 2 Scout layouts each since there's only so much you can do with single role. I'd guess 1 EW for the standard Beacon layout and 1 something else. My guess would be ICC gets a Cannon Scout and there's some tie in with the fluff descriptions between that and the Border Cruiser.

And this is more of a question than a guess, but are we going to be seeing anything like the current Strike Cruiser with cores on non-Dread hulls?
_________________
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Walrus of Apathy
Admiral
Templar Knights


Joined: August 07, 2005
Posts: 463
From: Dorans Basement
Posted: 2013-01-03 14:22   
Quote:

Are we going to be seeing a Cannon/Cannon layout for a T2 ICC Destroyer? Something like that would be perfectly fitting, though I'm not sure if 2x the same role is something you'll be doing or not. I can also see a beam/beam T2 luth Destroyer fitting them, or a Torp/Torp UGTO Destroyer.



No, or at least incredibly doubtful.

While I can see why they would fit, that level of specialization is being saved for T1's. Otherwise you'd graduate out of the T1's and get this T2 ship that has this same role but even more better at it, as T2's have more role points to spend on gadgets, and it would make the T1's useless. The whole point of this system is to keep any ships from being superflous like many people say our current system does.

Quote:

Though I AM wondering what will be done with Scouts since you already said they'll be limited to T1 only, it seems like each faction would probably have 2 Scout layouts each since there's only so much you can do with single role. I'd guess 1 EW for the standard Beacon layout and 1 something else. My guess would be ICC gets a Cannon Scout and there's some tie in with the fluff descriptions between that and the Border Cruiser.



Scout are going to be single role, all T1's, but right now we have that each faction gets 5 scouts. Each faction will get a Cannon, a Beam, a Torpedo, a Bomber, and an EWAR scout.

The purpose of each faction getting the same styles of scouts is to help new players. Scouts are all they get, bar the extractor and basic transport, so I wanted to give them access to each of the basic weapons types right off the bat, no matter which faction they picked first. So each faction gets basically the same scouts, bar factional differences like K'luth's cloak.

The EWAR scout is also in there so each faction has their beacon ship.

Quote:

And this is more of a question than a guess, but are we going to be seeing anything like the current Strike Cruiser with cores on non-Dread hulls?



Very sparingly. It may happen occasionaly on certain layouts but don't expect to be rocking loads of core weapons on them.
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal

Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1183
Posted: 2013-01-03 14:27   
Quote:
On 2013-01-03 00:59, Jim Starluck wrote:
You think I posted the actual, official ship design document on the public forum?
I'll be honest here, chlorophyll: you're trying my patience a bit arguing about two specific layouts like this. I wrote this entire design system in a cave, with a box of scraps, so please don't act like you know it better than I do.


Yes. I trust everything you say. I was so exciting that I can't control emotion and accidentally disturb you, Jim. I'm so sorry.
But, I have just questioned about the contradict/mysterious that anyone may find after reading the posts again. You told half story, some options were open and so I asked. And the more I asked, more truth revealed. However, I was naive, and my writings did unawarely not respect you. I apologize.
Quote:
On 2013-01-03 00:59, Jim Starluck wrote:
- Beams
-- Talent: +1 Fore armor, no EWar gadgets, cannot be combined with EWar role
-- K'Luth Faction Talent: -1 Reactor, ELF Beams allowed


Characteristics are called "talent" by Darkspace Ship Design Manual?
I admit that since the day I joined DS, I have studied more ways of using words.
Quote:
On 2013-01-03 00:59, Jim Starluck wrote:
Oooh, this should be fun. Because I'm a nice guy, I'll play a game with you. If you can correctly guess the layout of a ship that I've already designed, I'll post it here in the thread.



We have 10 roles: Cannons, Beams, Torpedoes, Missiles, Carrier, E-War, Escort, Bomber, Minelayer, Command. Pairs of role that never combine: beam & e-war; carrier & missle. Some make no sense to combine or very ineffective: station, mine & bomber; torpedo & e-war; fighter & beam; destroyer & e-war, escort; dread, station & e-war. Carrier, Command is only available on cruiser, dreadnaught and station. There is also a hint:
Quote:
On 2013-01-03 00:59, Jim Starluck wrote:
When a faction's natural strengths play towards a certain role, they tend to have more ships using that role at various tiers. It's why ICC has more missile ships, why UGTO has more Carrier ships, and why K'Luth are liable to have more Beam ships.


UGTO and ICC share same missles!
Well I think natural strength of: UGTO is beam as they have flux beam; ICC is bombing, cannon and torpedo as they have PSM and faster & longer range gun, torp; K'Luth is fighter, bomber and missle as PSI is a good cannon at medium range for fighter, cloak helps bombing a lot, and shroud missle is deadly to ship which has no ECCM nor scanner (although it's not powerful but an entire volley can bypass PD thanks of negative signature). That's just my opinion.
Put the personal opinion aside, let's play the game.
Quote:
On 2013-01-02 18:26, Walrus of Apathy wrote:
We're going for 5-6 per class per tier, except for T3's which get one.


5 T1, 5 T2 and 1 T3 to guess.
Station is strictly limited so forget this class. Let's focus on cruisers and dreads.
Unavailable:
Quote:
Jim Starluck wrote:
(Apologies to the UGTO; I don't have a Cruiser layout ready for them at the moment)
Once again, my apologies to the K'luth for not having a Dreadnought layout ready.


UGTO cruiser & Luth dreads won't make the triump. Let's call they are suggestions.
Already revealed:
K'Luth
T1 Cruiser: Parasite (beam). 2 ELF, 1 Aux gen... will be out of energy quickly. Maybe ether 3 ELF or 2 aux gen?
T2 Cruiser: Clavate (bomber, e-war). T1 bomber suggested (more bombs).

ICC
T2: Border Cruiser (cannon, e-war). Not really sure what it is good at.
T2: Guppy Cruiser (carrier, cannon). Gubby is M-270C? A fancy cruiser capable of fighing outside QST range. Good at anti dread.
T3 Cruiser: M-239A/L-M Strike Cruiser (cannon, missle, beam). Perfect anti ships, all classes.
T1: M-307M Missile Dreadnought (missle). Suggest T2 missle + mine. With 10 missle, 4 mines and 8 advanced weapon multiplexer, nobody recklessly jumps this fatass machine. I find mine is the best combo for MD because at least it can protect itself from being jumped, unlike ganglia just cloak.
T1: M-400L Combat Dreadnought (cannon). Normal dread.
T1: M-306T Torpedo Dreadnought (torpedo). The ICC favorite dread comes back with 17 torpedo. The old one had more than 20 and it was cursed.
T2: M-412L/M Line Dreadnought (cannon, missle). Long range dread, force UGTO to jump.

UGTO
T1: ST-112 Agincourt Supercarrier (carrier). Spaming spaming spaming. It will cause lag to player who has weak computer. LAG is a fantastic weapon!
T2: ST-119 Citadel Dreadnought (command, torpedo). Typical. Jim, can you tell us more about 2 command modules?
T2: ST-111 Carrier Dreadnought (cannon, carrier). Gubby's main rival.
T3: ST-125 Elite Assault Dreadnought (cannon, torpedo, beam). It needs renamed. The first time I saw its name, I envisaged it was superior to ICC Assualt Dread because AD was not "elite". How about Elite RSM Dread? Lol just kidding.

I presume:
K'Luth
T3 Cruiser: Scale (beam, torpedo, cannon). I prefer missle, torpedo and cannon. Shroud is a wonderful missle after all.
T2 Cruiser: Scarab (minelayer, torpedo). Obviously.
T1 Cruiser: Piercer (command). Should "aura" put into command role?
K'Luth T1 Cruiser: Carrier. This one is premier. K'Luth fighter has PSI, and PSI is damn good.
T2 Dread: Ganglia (missle, torpedo). It's nice.
T1: Mandible (beam). Suggest 2 Aux gen and 5 ELF. 1 aux gen will be not enough to fulfill Assault disruptors, like Parasite case. You can even exchange 1 disruptor to have 2 aux gen, Jim. Trust me about 2 aux gen, many Luth have said about that.
T2 Dread: Brood (command, bomber). Unlike command human dread, cloak makes bombing much easier; thus I love to bomb then build with this one.

ICC
T2 Cruiser: Heavy (cannon, torpedo). Acient but most popular. This combo is always a success.
T1 Cruiser: Missle (missle). Typical ICC.
T1 Cruiser: M-235I (command). Again, aura?
T2 Cruiser: Escort (torpedo, escort). Escort ship will have many beams, so torpedo sounds more logical than cannon.
T2 Dread: M-318C (command, cannon). Even we don't know how "command module" function, the current model (command, fighter) has been hated and we're happy to get rid of it.
T2 Dread: M-400B (bomber, cannon). PSM and Heavy gauss gun combo allows this dread to bomb outside of dico plus pushing transport away. Reasonable combo for the bomber master.

UGTO
T3 Cruiser: ST-34 (beam, torpedo, cannon). This one and the elite RSM dread (joke again) are son and father.
T1 Cruiser: ST-35. aura, yes, but what?
T2 Cruiser: ST-39 (missle, mine). If it is pure T1 missle, it's just like ICC.
T1 Cruiser: ST-36 Battle (torpedo). Let's see how good new UGTO torpedo is.
T2 Cruiser: ST-40 Strategic Bomber (bomber, ewar). E-war is the reason why this ship is named "strategic".

I read news about fighter, missle and beam. They're splended. But command and aura are still mysterious. Maybe you should rename "command" role to "aura" because it reflects more precisely how the ship affects.

Btw, players tend to believe the default gadgets, such as IE drive, are the best. And they don't bother exploring alternative gadget. This time, I hope you and Walrus will introduce more alternative gadgets as the default layout for the ship. We will see PFE, AFE, AME, albative, reflective, skirmish shield... more often. Reflective the inside armor, PFE on beam ship etc...
[ This Message was edited by: chlorophyll on 2013-01-03 14:57 ]
_________________


BLADERUNNER2019
Chief Marshal

Joined: December 18, 2010
Posts: 99
Posted: 2013-01-03 14:45   
I see one major problem with this new ship tier system:

How many players will ever actually become CM...not many. I understand that rank should have its priviledges, but what player below CM will engage in a fight with a tier3 dread..not many, why lose prestige for nothing? The rank bar for tier 3 ships is too high at CM, it should be at Marshall.

Players already complain all the time about how much prestige they lose in certain ships, because of how many ships they have to kill to gain it back. Playing it safe to limit prestige loss will make the game boring.

Basically, prestige gain needs to be increased or prestige loss needs to be decreased if you leave the tier 3 ships earned at CM.

Please donot respond by saying prestige gain is easier then ever or something ridiculous like that. Or that my lack of prestige gain is lack of skill. It usually comes down to circumstance: how many enemies online, how many allies online, lag, etc...things that are beyond anyone's control.
FOR EXAMPLE: Currently If Kluth are invading R-33 and I am the only UGTO player on (which happens all the time) I will lose alot of prestige to stop them...however, if I am going to need to put prestige on a pedestal, I guess I'll have to ignore the invasion, or just log off game till more UGTO players on...This is just one example, there are many more you can think of.

I am confused as to why everyone is clueless to this. But when this tier system takes effect, the rest of you will see then.



[ This Message was edited by: Bladerunner2014 on 2013-01-03 14:45 ]
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights


Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2032
From: Michigan
Posted: 2013-01-03 14:57   
Quote:

On 2013-01-03 14:22, Walrus of Apathy wrote:

No, or at least incredibly doubtful.

While I can see why they would fit, that level of specialization is being saved for T1's. Otherwise you'd graduate out of the T1's and get this T2 ship that has this same role but even more better at it, as T2's have more role points to spend on gadgets, and it would make the T1's useless. The whole point of this system is to keep any ships from being superflous like many people say our current system does.



I know, I brought that up myself earlier with, ironically, the T1/2/3 Destroyer layouts that Jim posted. He mentioned that it was really hard to get a good balance between the different tiers for Destroyers because of the low point limits, so one way to solve it would be to flip it and have the T1 Destroyers be more diverse like the current Escort/Picket Destroyers are, and have the T2 be more specialized, then back to being more diverse with T3.

Quote:

Scout are going to be single role, all T1's, but right now we have that each faction gets 5 scouts. Each faction will get a Cannon, a Beam, a Torpedo, a Bomber, and an EWAR scout.

The purpose of each faction getting the same styles of scouts is to help new players. Scouts are all they get, bar the extractor and basic transport, so I wanted to give them access to each of the basic weapons types right off the bat, no matter which faction they picked first. So each faction gets basically the same scouts, bar factional differences like K'luth's cloak.

The EWAR scout is also in there so each faction has their beacon ship.



I really like the idea behind that, but unless Scouts get more layout points we'll end up with ships that are never used just like some of the current Scouts.

The current Bomber Scouts are ignored because the Bomber Frigate is just plain superior in every respect. A Scout with 1 bomb gadget can't even kill a single structure before it has to reload, it can kill troops but that's about it.

A Beam scout would be similarly unused, a few CL on a Scout would be pretty ineffective as a combat ship, even against other Scouts. I can't really think of a use for a Scout with a few beams aside from swapping them to PD variants and loading it with speed enh to chase down Fighters.

.....Actually, that sounds like fun. Hell yeah bring on the beam Scouts.

Torp Scouts are badass though, mostly because they can fit a lot of Torps since they use such a ridiculously low amount of points in a layout.

Cannon Scouts are also great even though they can't fit as many weapons as a Torp Scout, but the longer range gives them more leeway.

Quote:

Very sparingly. It may happen occasionaly on certain layouts but don't expect to be rocking loads of core weapons on them.



Yeah I wouldn't expect a lot of them, but I can see a Core/Missile layout for a Cruiser working extremely well.



Quote:

On 2013-01-03 14:45, Bladerunner2014 wrote:

Please donot respond by saying prestige gain is easier then ever or something ridiculous like that. Or that my lack of prestige gain is lack of skill. It usually comes down to circumstance: how many enemies online, how many allies online, lag, etc...things that are beyond anyone's control.
FOR EXAMPLE: Currently If Kluth are invading R-33 and I am the only UGTO player on (which happens all the time) I will lose alot of prestige to stop them...however, if I am going to need to put prestige on a pedestal, I guess I'll have to ignore the invasion, or just log off game till more UGTO players on...This is just one example, there are many more you can think of.

I am confused as to why everyone is clueless to this. But when this tier system takes effect, the rest of you will see then.



You don't have to kill players to stop them from doing something. Generally all it takes is being just annoying enough to disrupt what they're doing and you'll start seeing a few ragelog. Myself and others have done this alone several times with just a Cruiser or Destroyer, nobody bothered switching out of their Dreadnoughts and Stations into a ship that was suited to chasing down something smaller so it was easy to piss them off to the point where they simply logged rather than doing something intelligent to get rid of the annoyance.

The reverse is also true. A Dreadnought isn't the answer to everything, and when you're using one solo of course you will see a net loss of prestige because you're an easy target trying to take on multiple enemies. That is not losing prestige, it's actively throwing it away.

Quote:
How many players will ever actually become CM...not many. I understand that rank should have its priviledges, but what player below CM will engage in a fight with a tier3 dread..not many, why lose prestige for nothing? The rank bar for tier 3 ships is too high at CM, it should be at Marshall.



A T3 Dreadnought is not going to be the be all end all of ships, they will all have their weaknesses that are there be exploited by anyone with some sense. I can think of several people who would have no qualms about going up against one alone as many of us do it already against the current EAD.
[ This Message was edited by: Talien on 2013-01-03 15:17 ]
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Walrus of Apathy
Admiral
Templar Knights


Joined: August 07, 2005
Posts: 463
From: Dorans Basement
Posted: 2013-01-03 15:49   
Quote:

The current Bomber Scouts are ignored because the Bomber Frigate is just plain superior in every respect. A Scout with 1 bomb gadget can't even kill a single structure before it has to reload, it can kill troops but that's about it.



It's all a matter of what you can expect to do with such a little ship, no one expects a Bomber Scout to glass a planet, and it's more meant for light harying early in a scenario game for example. From a gameplay perspective it's more meant to teach newcomers the basics of bombing before they grow up to the bomber frigs and dessies that are actually used more for planets attacks.

Quote:

A Beam scout would be similarly unused, a few CL on a Scout would be pretty ineffective as a combat ship, even against other Scouts. I can't really think of a use for a Scout with a few beams aside from swapping them to PD variants and loading it with speed enh to chase down Fighters.

.....Actually, that sounds like fun. Hell yeah bring on the beam Scouts.



I hate to rain on the parade a bit here, but PD beams and regular CLs/Disrupters are going to be distinct weapons now, you won't be able to swap CLs for Pulse Beams anymore. To compensate however, every ship is going to have at least 1 full arc PD beam, and most ships will have even more. Escort role ships are going to specialize in PD for fleet support.

To be clear, CLs won't be able to point defense anymore, but each faction will get a version of the Pulse Beam and the ERL.

Back to the Scouts, I imagined the beam scouts being used to hary utility ships and transports. And while you don't think they'll be able to do much damage, due to the quirks of the ship design system we use, the Beam Scouts ended up with more weapons comparatively than their cannon or torpedo counterparts. Hopefully that makes you feel better about them.

Quote:

Torp Scouts are badass though, mostly because they can fit a lot of Torps since they use such a ridiculously low amount of points in a layout.



I agree

Quote:

Cannon Scouts are also great even though they can't fit as many weapons as a Torp Scout, but the longer range gives them more leeway.



Basic cannons, beams and torpedos cost the same number of points in a layout, so the cannon scouts do actually have the same weapons numbers more-or-less than the torpedo scouts.


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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights


Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2032
From: Michigan
Posted: 2013-01-03 17:43   
Quote:

On 2013-01-03 15:49, Walrus of Apathy wrote:

It's all a matter of what you can expect to do with such a little ship, no one expects a Bomber Scout to glass a planet, and it's more meant for light harying early in a scenario game for example. From a gameplay perspective it's more meant to teach newcomers the basics of bombing before they grow up to the bomber frigs and dessies that are actually used more for planets attacks.



Unless Frigates are going to be changed to cost res to spawn they can be used for early bombing in scen as well since you can currently spawn them from gates for free. I guess having everything available to try out from the start isn't necessarily a bad thing, I'm just thinking it'd help to avoid the ship selection screen being too cluttered if ships that will almost never see any use were left out.

Quote:


I hate to rain on the parade a bit here, but PD beams and regular CLs/Disrupters are going to be distinct weapons now, you won't be able to swap CLs for Pulse Beams anymore. To compensate however, every ship is going to have at least 1 full arc PD beam, and most ships will have even more. Escort role ships are going to specialize in PD for fleet support.

To be clear, CLs won't be able to point defense anymore, but each faction will get a version of the Pulse Beam and the ERL.

Back to the Scouts, I imagined the beam scouts being used to hary utility ships and transports. And while you don't think they'll be able to do much damage, due to the quirks of the ship design system we use, the Beam Scouts ended up with more weapons comparatively than their cannon or torpedo counterparts. Hopefully that makes you feel better about them.



I forgot about the beam divergence, so much for that idea then. But I was more thinking that getting close enough to use beams would be fairly suicidal for a Scout since if you can hit them they can hit you as well, a Scout relies on not getting hit to avoid dying and at beam range you won't be avoiding much of anything. Newbies learning suicidal tactics like that is not exactly a good way to keep them around, but I suppose it's just something that'll need actual testing to see for sure.

Quote:

Basic cannons, beams and torpedos cost the same number of points in a layout, so the cannon scouts do actually have the same weapons numbers more-or-less than the torpedo scouts.



True, but you do get heavy cannons and not heavy torps. I suppose it doesn't really make a whole lot of difference but it's just more fun to see a cloud of torps coming out of a Scout than it is to see a couple cannon shots. Or are we going to see heavy torps added in the new system?
_________________
Adapt or die.

Walrus of Apathy
Admiral
Templar Knights


Joined: August 07, 2005
Posts: 463
From: Dorans Basement
Posted: 2013-01-03 18:27   
Why don't you see some of the Scout proposals for yourself?

ICC Customs Corvette - Cannon Role

1x Tachyon Drive
1x IE Drive
4x Active Shield (1F 1S 1P 1A)
1x Composite Armor (Full)

1x Full Arc PD Beam
2x Dual Arc Heavy Railguns (1FS 1FP)
2x Dual Arc Railguns (1AS 1AP)
1x Fore Arc Railgun

2x ECCM
1x Aux Reactor

K'luth Mosquito - Beam Role

1x AMJD
1x AME Drive
5x Organic Armor (1F 1S 1P 1A 1Full)
1x Cloak

1x Full Arc PD Beam
1x Tri Arc ELF Beam (FSP)
2x Dual Arc Disrupter (FS FP)
2x Fore Arc Disrupter

UGTO Assault Corvette - Torpedo Role

1x Tachyon Drive
1x IE Drive
5x Standard Armor (1F 1S 1P 1A 1Full)

1x Full Arc PD Beam
4x Dual Arc Proton Torpedo Launcher(2FS 2FP)
1x Tri Arc Proton Torpedo Launcher (ASP)

2x ECCM
1x Aux Reactor

Please note these layouts are still merely proposals at this point and are in no way final.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black


Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3820
From: LobsterTown
Posted: 2013-01-03 23:02   
Quote:

On 2013-01-03 14:45, Bladerunner2014 wrote:
I see one major problem with this new ship tier system:

How many players will ever actually become CM...not many. I understand that rank should have its priviledges, but what player below CM will engage in a fight with a tier3 dread..not many, why lose prestige for nothing? The rank bar for tier 3 ships is too high at CM, it should be at Marshall.

Players already complain all the time about how much prestige they lose in certain ships, because of how many ships they have to kill to gain it back. Playing it safe to limit prestige loss will make the game boring.

Basically, prestige gain needs to be increased or prestige loss needs to be decreased if you leave the tier 3 ships earned at CM.

Please donot respond by saying prestige gain is easier then ever or something ridiculous like that. Or that my lack of prestige gain is lack of skill. It usually comes down to circumstance: how many enemies online, how many allies online, lag, etc...things that are beyond anyone's control.
FOR EXAMPLE: Currently If Kluth are invading R-33 and I am the only UGTO player on (which happens all the time) I will lose alot of prestige to stop them...however, if I am going to need to put prestige on a pedestal, I guess I'll have to ignore the invasion, or just log off game till more UGTO players on...This is just one example, there are many more you can think of.

I am confused as to why everyone is clueless to this. But when this tier system takes effect, the rest of you will see then.



[ This Message was edited by: Bladerunner2014 on 2013-01-03 14:45 ]




Playstyle. Some ppl play for fun. Some ppl play for pres. Not everybody needs or want to make it to CM. Not everybody wants to fly a T3 ship. You're just relating your own experiences or preferences.

I've seen ppl ranking up or gaining pres even though not many players are on. They do something else; build, bomb, hunt AI. PVP combat isn't the only way to gain pres. When I log in and I don't see other players, I go look for AI to AI battles and just jump in killing everything I can.


Of course you may be losing pres with your playstyle. While it is admirable that you would be defending UGTO territory on your lonesome vs multiple enemies and dying repeatedly for it, at some point you'll have to ask yourself whether doing that is profitable if you're concerned about prestige.

Otherwise, play on, fight, kill and die in the name of fun.




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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights


Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
Posted: 2013-01-04 03:35   
Quote:

On 2013-01-03 02:56, SpaceAdmiral wrote:

Hmm in that case let's "guess" the role combos that you *cough* already hinted at *cough*.

How will the
UGTO Tier 2 Carrier/Cannon Dread
compare with the
ICC Tier 3 Carrier/Cannon/EWAR Dread?



Cute, but no cigar. If I or another Dev have already stated there will be a ship with that role combo it doesn't count as a guess.

I'll give you something, though.

UGTO Carrier Dread: 6 fighters, 8 heavy particle cannons, 2 Heavy Mass Drivers
ICC Strike Carrier: 8 fighters, 10 heavy railguns, no Ion Cannons

Quote:

On 2013-01-03 14:27, chlorophyll wrote:

Yes. I trust everything you say. I was so exciting that I can't control emotion and accidentally disturb you, Jim. I'm so sorry.
But, I have just questioned about the contradict/mysterious that anyone may find after reading the posts again. You told half story, some options were open and so I asked. And the more I asked, more truth revealed. However, I was naive, and my writings did unawarely not respect you. I apologize.


Hey, it's alright. Just try to keep it a little under control next time, k?

Quote:
We have 10 roles: Cannons, Beams, Torpedoes, Missiles, Carrier, E-War, Escort, Bomber, Minelayer, Command. Pairs of role that never combine: beam & e-war; carrier & missle.



Strictly speaking, there's nothing that says Carrier & Missile roles can't combine; there's no hard-written rule against it like there is with Beams and EWar. It would make you heavily specialized at long-range combat, though, and exceedingly vulnerable against anything with heavy point-defense.

Quote:
Some make no sense to combine or very ineffective: station, mine & bomber; torpedo & e-war; fighter & beam; destroyer & e-war, escort; dread, station & e-war. Carrier, Command is only available on cruiser, dreadnaught and station. There is also a hint:
Quote:
On 2013-01-03 00:59, Jim Starluck wrote:
When a faction's natural strengths play towards a certain role, they tend to have more ships using that role at various tiers. It's why ICC has more missile ships, why UGTO has more Carrier ships, and why K'Luth are liable to have more Beam ships.


UGTO and ICC share same missles!
Well I think natural strength of: UGTO is beam as they have flux beam; ICC is bombing, cannon and torpedo as they have PSM and faster & longer range gun, torp; K'Luth is fighter, bomber and missle as PSI is a good cannon at medium range for fighter, cloak helps bombing a lot, and shroud missle is deadly to ship which has no ECCM nor scanner (although it's not powerful but an entire volley can bypass PD thanks of negative signature). That's just my opinion.


UGTO are generally well-rounded in terms of armament, though they don't use missiles nearly as much as ICC and instead rely more on fighters. ICC tend to want to stay at range so they like cannons and missiles, and they're also more reliant on EWar than UGTO--when you're outmatched and outgunned by a larger empire, every little trick helps. K'Luth are supposed to be all about close-range combat, so beams and torps are the order of the day. Don't count on the current Shroud missile staying as it is; it's going to lose its negative signature and become just as targetable as any other missile. K'Luth EWar ships are also going to be more rare, as Cloak works pretty well for them already.

Quote:
Quote:
On 2013-01-02 18:26, Walrus of Apathy wrote:
We're going for 5-6 per class per tier, except for T3's which get one.


5 T1, 5 T2 and 1 T3 to guess.


If we wind up with lots of ideas for ships at a given tier, we'll go with 6. If not, 5.

Quote:
I presume:
K'Luth
T3 Cruiser: Scale (beam, torpedo, cannon). I prefer missle, torpedo and cannon. Shroud is a wonderful missle after all.


I currently have the Scale written as a T1 Cannon ship, actually. It's supposed to be a pretty common and basic K'Luth Cruiser, so it's probably not going to become the T3 ship even if it gets changed.

Quote:
T2 Cruiser: Scarab (minelayer, torpedo). Obviously.


Yup! And since is one that I don't think we've hinted at yet, it's layout time!

Scarab

Another specialist Carnivore, the Scarab carries a large payload of antimatter mine launchers. This ship is adept at sowing chaos in the battlespace, dropping mines in the path of human fleets and forcing their formations to scatter to avoid destruction... making them easy targets for the other K'luth ships stalking them. The Scarab also carries a nice, heavy torpedo battery to help finish off human ships that have already been savaged by its minefields.

Layout:
- 1x Antimatter Jump Drive
- 3x PSI Drive
- 8x Organic Armor (2 F, 2 P, 2 S, 1 A, 1 Full)
- 1x Cloaking Device
- 1x AHR

- 4x AM Mine
- 2x Full-arc PD Beam
- 1x Tri-arc PD Beam (1x FPS)
- 3x Fore-arc PD Beam
- 8x Dual-Arc AM Torpedo (4x FP,4x FS)

- 1x Scanner
- 1x ECM
- 2x Auxiliary Power Generator

Given its current role, it's pretty predictable. If I wind up changing Minelayers at some point to no longer double as minesweepers, expect to see the Scarab get extra ECM.

Quote:
T1 Cruiser: Piercer (command). Should "aura" put into command role?


Good guess, although I don't have it written yet. I'll also probably be making Command Cruisers Tier 2 ships. As helpful as their auras will be, they won't earn the pilot prestige directly, so you'd want some way to do damage. For the K'Luth, it'll likely be either Beam/Command or Torpedo/Command.

Quote:
K'Luth T1 Cruiser: Carrier. This one is premier. K'Luth fighter has PSI, and PSI is damn good.


I don't have this one written, but that's a good idea. K'Luth generally prefer fighters over missiles when it comes to attacking from range. You should know, however, that fighters carry their own versions of the weapons they use--they don't have the same Psi Cannon that you have on K'Luth ships, for example--and those weapons are specifically balanced for use by fighters. I'll agree with you that Psi Cannons are damn good, though. I've always loved their "pew pew pew" sound.

Quote:
T2 Dread: Ganglia (missle, torpedo). It's nice.


Another one that's not written yet, but might get use. The Ganglia might also be Missile/Cannon, but that could also be seen as taking it too far out of the K'Luth comfort zone--they always like to have some mid- or close-range weapons handy.

Quote:
T1: Mandible (beam). Suggest 2 Aux gen and 5 ELF. 1 aux gen will be not enough to fulfill Assault disruptors, like Parasite case. You can even exchange 1 disruptor to have 2 aux gen, Jim. Trust me about 2 aux gen, many Luth have said about that.


As I said earlier, I don't have any K'Luth Dreadnoughts written up yet. Any Beam ships they get will have plenty of ELF Beams, though. And there may be balance changes coming to energy use across the board at some point.

Quote:
T2 Dread: Brood (command, bomber). Unlike command human dread, cloak makes bombing much easier; thus I love to bomb then build with this one.


This might be doable, though the Brood could also be a Command/Carrier. In that case, though, just swap to fighter-bombers and bomb away! I'll see if I can make sure at least one of the two K'Luth Command Dreads has some kind of bombing capability.

Quote:
ICC
T2 Cruiser: Heavy (cannon, torpedo). Acient but most popular. This combo is always a success.


Yup.

M-230L/T Heavy Cruiser

The Heavy Cruiser is the backbone of the Confederate Navy. In some respects an upscaled Combat Destroyer, it carries a heavy railgun battery for mid-range combat and torpedo launchers for taking on hardened targets. Being a Cruiser, it is slower and less maneuverable than a Destroyer, but also more heavily shielded and armored and carries an electronic warfare module to prevent it being taken by surprise. The M-230L/T layout has not changed since the beginning of the war, having proven itself a sturdy and reliable combat ship time and again. Squadrons of these ships form the core strength of virtually every ICC fleet.

Layout:
- 1x Tachyon Drive
- 3x IE engine
- 4x Active Shields (1x Fore, 1x Starboard, 1x Port, 1x Aft)
- 5x Composite Armor (1x Fore, 1x Starboard, 1x Port, 1x Aft, 1x Full)

- 1x Pulse Shield
- 2x Full-arc PD beams
- 1x Tri-arc PD beam (1x Fore/Port/Stbd)
- 3x Tri-arc Heavy Railgun (2x Fore/Port/Stbd, 1x Aft/Port/Stbd)
- 4x Dual-arc Railgun (1x Fore/Port, 1x Fore/Stbd, 1x Aft/Port, 1x Aft/Stbd)
- 12x Dual-arc Fusion Torpedo (2x Fore/Stbd, 2x Fore/Port, 2x Aft/Port, 2x Aft/Stbd, 4x Port/Stbd)

- 1x ECM
- 3x Aux Reactors

Quote:
T1 Cruiser: Missle (missle). Typical ICC.


Always a solid bet.

M-240M Missile Cruiser

The first of the M-240 series, the Missile Cruiser is a long-range support specialist. It packs more firepower than the Missile Destroyer and enough power generation to fire while on the move, making it quite versatile in battle. Like its smaller cousin it carries little in the way of short-range armament, though it does have a modest amount of electronic warfare support. Also like its smaller cousin, it has performed quite well when paired with the M-46M Missile Frigate, which can employ its ECM arrays to hide both ships from enemy sensors.

Layout:
- 1x Tachyon Drive
- 3x IE Drive
- 4x Active Shields (1x Fore, 1x Port, 1x Starboard, 1x Aft)
- 5x Composite Armor (1x Fore, 1x Port, 1x Starboard, 2x Full)

- 1x Pulse Shield
- 2x Full-arc Point-defense Beam
- 1x Tri-arc Point-defense Beam (1x Fore/Port/Stbd)
- 10x Phoenix Missile

- 1x ECM
- 3x Auxiliary Fusion Generator

Expect them to possibly have a T2 variant as well.

Quote:
T1 Cruiser: M-235I (command). Again, aura?


Again, Command Cruisers will probably be Tier 2.

Quote:
T2 Cruiser: Escort (torpedo, escort). Escort ship will have many beams, so torpedo sounds more logical than cannon.


You got the roles and tier right, but you put it on the wrong faction. Since ICC point-defense beams are just plain better, UGTO has resorted to putting more of them on more ships. As I said before, expect to see multiple Escort ships for them.

Quote:
T2 Dread: M-318C (command, cannon). Even we don't know how "command module" function, the current model (command, fighter) has been hated and we're happy to get rid of it.


You got everything right but the designation. The M-318C will still be the Command Carrier; I'm hoping that the balance changes to fighters and the addition of Command Modules will make it worth flying.

And since the name of the ship wasn't one of the requisites, here's the ship you did guess correctly:

M-412L/N Flagship Dreadnought

As the Fourth Stellar War has dragged on into its twelfth year, Confederate strategists have noticed that the older M-318C/N Command Carriers are significantly vulnerable to attack by the K'Luth. Traditional doctrine called for 318s to be held behind the primary capital lines, far enough back that it would be costly for the UGTO to attack them but near enough to coordinate the fleet. An enemy that can attack wherever and whenever they prefer without warning is far more difficult to defend against. After half a dozen high-ranking admirals went down with their ships in as many months, Shi Jie Yards were asked to produce a command ship that could operate in company with the main capital fleet rather than behind it. The new M-412L/Ns carry a heavy railgun battery and are already proving effective in front-line combat, though some traditionalists prefer to continue using the old 318s regardless of the risk.

Layout:
- 1x Jumpdrive
- 1x Wormhole Drive
- 4x IE Drive
- 4x Composite Armor ( 1x Fore, 1x Port, 1x Stbd, 1x Aft)
- 4x Active Shields ( 1x Fore, 1x Port, 1x Stbd, 1x Aft )

- 1x Pulse Shield
- 2x Full-arc Point-defense Beam
- 2x Tri-arc Point-defense Beam (2x Fore/Port/Stbd)
- 6x Tri-arc Heavy Railgun (2x Fore/Port/Stbd, 2x Fore/Port/Aft, 2x Fore/Stbd/Aft)
- 8x Dual-arc Heavy Railgun (1x Fore/Port, 1x Fore/Stbd, 1x Aft/Port, 1x Aft/Stbd, 4x Port/Stbd)

- 2x Command Module
- 1x Build Drones
- 1x ECCM
- 3x Auxiliary Fusion Generator

Expect this to be another popular upgrade for Combat Dread pilots who get access to T2 Dreadnoughts.

Quote:
T2 Dread: M-400B (bomber, cannon). PSM and Heavy gauss gun combo allows this dread to bomb outside of dico plus pushing transport away. Reasonable combo for the bomber master.


Ah, but that would make it not quite as good at bombing. The Siege Dreadnought is a T1 Bomber ship.

Quote:
UGTO
T3 Cruiser: ST-34 (beam, torpedo, cannon). This one and the elite RSM dread (joke again) are son and father.


Not written yet, but a distinct possibility.

Quote:
T1 Cruiser: ST-35. aura, yes, but what?


Will be T2, and probably combined with either Cannons or Torpedoes. Actually, now that I think about it, that'll be a pretty straightforward way to do the Command Cruisers: K'Luth one can be Command/Beams, UGTO one can be Command/Torps, ICC one can be Command/Cannons.

Quote:
T2 Cruiser: ST-39 (missle, mine). If it is pure T1 missle, it's just like ICC.


The same could be said of any T1 ship that shares the same role, and even though they don't make as much use of them as the ICC do, the UGTO still has a need for a basic T1 Missile Cruiser.

Quote:
T1 Cruiser: ST-36 Battle (torpedo). Let's see how good new UGTO torpedo is.


Battlecruiser will probably be T2 Cannon/Torpedo, just like its old nemesis the Heavy Cruiser.

Quote:
T2 Cruiser: ST-40 Strategic Bomber (bomber, ewar). E-war is the reason why this ship is named "strategic".


Another ship that's not written yet, but the logic behind it is sound.

Quote:
I read news about fighter, missle and beam. They're splended. But command and aura are still mysterious. Maybe you should rename "command" role to "aura" because it reflects more precisely how the ship affects.


Eh. It's the same thing with Escort ships having lots of point-defense beam. The Role is more descriptive of how the ships are supposed to behave in-universe.

Anyway, Command ships will get Command Modules. Each module projects an aura that affects nearby ships, and each type of Command ship will have a different set of auras it can chose between.

Command Cruisers will get a single Command module each. Their auras will negatively affect enemy ships, since they're replacing the Interdictors. Expect to see auras that make it harder to jump.

Command Dreadnoughts will get two Command Modules, so they can either project two different auras at once or a single aura at double strength. Their auras will improve nearby friendly ships and will generally be straightforward combat bonuses; things like increased damage or tougher armor, etc.

Command Stations will get three Command Modules. Their auras will also benefit friendly ships, but will probably have a greater range than Dreadnought or Cruiser auras (since the Station can't exactly move around as quickly). They also may not boost the same aspects as Dreadnought auras, so the two probably won't overlap.

Quote:
Btw, players tend to believe the default gadgets, such as IE drive, are the best. And they don't bother exploring alternative gadget. This time, I hope you and Walrus will introduce more alternative gadgets as the default layout for the ship. We will see PFE, AFE, AME, albative, reflective, skirmish shield... more often. Reflective the inside armor, PFE on beam ship etc...


A good point. I'll make sure we keep it in mind.



Also, since it took me awhile to reply to this list, I'm adding a new rule to the game: From here on, I'll only post one layout per post, regardless of how many guesses there are. I'll generally pick the one that seems most interesting to me, so if you're interested in finding out aboug a specific ship, narrow your selection a bit.


Quote:

On 2013-01-03 14:45, Bladerunner2014 wrote:
I see one major problem with this new ship tier system:

How many players will ever actually become CM...not many. I understand that rank should have its priviledges, but what player below CM will engage in a fight with a tier3 dread..not many, why lose prestige for nothing? The rank bar for tier 3 ships is too high at CM, it should be at Marshall.

Players already complain all the time about how much prestige they lose in certain ships, because of how many ships they have to kill to gain it back. Playing it safe to limit prestige loss will make the game boring.

Basically, prestige gain needs to be increased or prestige loss needs to be decreased if you leave the tier 3 ships earned at CM.

Please donot respond by saying prestige gain is easier then ever or something ridiculous like that. Or that my lack of prestige gain is lack of skill. It usually comes down to circumstance: how many enemies online, how many allies online, lag, etc...things that are beyond anyone's control.
FOR EXAMPLE: Currently If Kluth are invading R-33 and I am the only UGTO player on (which happens all the time) I will lose alot of prestige to stop them...however, if I am going to need to put prestige on a pedestal, I guess I'll have to ignore the invasion, or just log off game till more UGTO players on...This is just one example, there are many more you can think of.

I am confused as to why everyone is clueless to this. But when this tier system takes effect, the rest of you will see then.


It'll be better for you, actually, because you'll have a lot more ships available to you without having to hit CM. Tier 1 and Tier 2 ships will be plenty effective, and you'll have access to about 10-12 of them well before you start the long climb up towards CM. Tier 3 ships are a reward for reaching the highest ranks, but they're not going to be required in order to play. That's part of the idea behind the Tier system, that even if you can't unlock the absolute highest ships you can still fly something that'll make a difference in a battle.

Heck, even I won't be able to access Tier 3 Dreadnoughts right off the bat--I'm still only a Marshall.



_________________
If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger space battleship and try again.

  Email Jim Starluck
Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights


Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2032
From: Michigan
Posted: 2013-01-04 13:11   
Quote:

On 2013-01-03 18:27, Walrus of Apathy wrote:
Why don't you see some of the Scout proposals for yourself?

ICC Customs Corvette - Cannon Role

1x Tachyon Drive
1x IE Drive
4x Active Shield (1F 1S 1P 1A)
1x Composite Armor (Full)

1x Full Arc PD Beam
2x Dual Arc Heavy Railguns (1FS 1FP)
2x Dual Arc Railguns (1AS 1AP)
1x Fore Arc Railgun

2x ECCM
1x Aux Reactor



Scouts are maneuverable enough that they're better off with just f/fp/fs weaponry, full coverage decreases their overall firepower. It would be more efficient to switch the dual arc Rails from AS/AP to FS/FP, do that and we have a winner.

Quote:

K'luth Mosquito - Beam Role

1x AMJD
1x AME Drive
5x Organic Armor (1F 1S 1P 1A 1Full)
1x Cloak

1x Full Arc PD Beam
1x Tri Arc ELF Beam (FSP)
2x Dual Arc Disrupter (FS FP)
2x Fore Arc Disrupter



Can't say much besides I love the name, it seems perfectly fitting.

Quote:

UGTO Assault Corvette - Torpedo Role

1x Tachyon Drive
1x IE Drive
5x Standard Armor (1F 1S 1P 1A 1Full)

1x Full Arc PD Beam
4x Dual Arc Proton Torpedo Launcher(2FS 2FP)
1x Tri Arc Proton Torpedo Launcher (ASP)

2x ECCM
1x Aux Reactor



Same as the first layout, it'd be better to have firepower concentrated forward because Scouts are maneuverable enough to make the best use of it. Change the tri arc torp from ASP to FSP and it'll be perfect.

Quote:

Please note these layouts are still merely proposals at this point and are in no way final.



Of course, but maybe it would be a good idea to eventually post them all somewhere before they're added to beta. Yeah it'd be a pain in the ass sorting through the "wtf this sux" posts but you'd save on it in the long run by getting some useful feedback from people who like the tier idea and want to see it work out.
_________________
Adapt or die.

DiepLuc
Chief Marshal

Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1183
Posted: 2013-01-05 14:12   
Improvements review
1. Core Weapons (1.1. and 1.2. can not swap)
1.1. Core Cannon. Include: ICC Ion Cannon, K'Luth Stellar Incinerator, UGTO Heavy Mass Driver. For: (tier 1 > tier 2 > tier 3) cannon cruiser, dreadnaught, station. Characteristics: range, damage, velocity similar to current.
1.2. Core Torpedo. Include: ICC Variance Torpedo, UGTO Quantum Singularity Torpedo, K'Luth Neutronium Torpedo. For: (tier 1 > tier 2 > tier 3) torpedo role cruiser, dreadnaught, station. Characteristics: shorter, slower and more powerful than Core Cannon.
2. Beams (2.1. and 2.2 can not swap)
2.1. Point-defense Beams (2.1.1. and 2.1.2. can swap)
2.1.1. Anti-fighter Beam: long range, long cooldown.
2.1.2. Anti-missle Beam: short range, short cooldown.
2.2. Anti-ship Beams
3. Missles (3.1. and 3.2. can swap)
3.1. Skirmish Missle: long range, low damage, low energy-charge
3.2. Strike Missle: short range, high damage, high energy-charge

Tier 1 rankings:
  • Frigates: Midshipman to 2nd Lieutenant;
  • Destroyers: 2nd Lieutenant to Lieutenant Commander
  • Cruisers: Lieutenant Commander to Captain
  • Dreadnoughts: Captain to 1st Rear Admiral

Tier 2 rankings:
  • Frigates: Commander to 2nd Rear Admiral
  • Destroyers: 2nd Rear Admiral to Vice Admiral
  • Cruisers: Vice Admiral to Fleet Admiral
  • Dreadnoughts: Fleed Admiral to Marshal

Tier 3 rankings:
  • Frigate: Fleet Admiral
  • Destroyer: Grand Admiral
  • Cruiser: Marshal
  • Dreadnought: Chief Marshal

Assuming simulation
  • Impulse Drives: 2 Proton Fusion Engines for Beam role; 1 Proton Fusion Engine for Torpedo, Escort role; 2 Atomic Fusion Engines / Antimatter Engines for Bomber, Minelayer; 1 Atomic Fusion Engine / Antimatter Engine for EWAR, Carrier, Missle role. Ion Engines / Psionic Inference Engines for the rest.
  • Armors: Albative as outside armor for Cannon, Escort, Bomber role UGTO; Reflective as inside armor for Beam role UGTO; Chitinious as outside and full armor for Torpedo, Cannon, Beam role K'Luth. Standard / Organic for the rest.
  • Shields: Reactive as inside shield for Missle, Carrier, EWAR role ICC; Skirmish shield as outside shield for Cannon, Escort, Bomber role ICC. Active for the rest.
  • Point-defense Beams: Anti-fighter for full arcs; Anti-missle for the rest.

Now, time to apply the new gadgets and weapon system to the layout. Post gadgets are in the inside layer.

Scout

ICC Customs (Cannon)
  • 1 Tachyon Drive
  • 1 Ion Engine
  • 4 Active shield (1 F, 1 S, 1 P, 1 A)
  • 1 Composite Armor (full)
  • 1 Anti-fighter Beam (full)
  • 2 Heavy Railguns (1 FS, 1 FP)
  • 2 Railguns (1AS 1AP)
  • 1 Railgun (F)
  • 2 ECM
  • 1 Auxiliary Shield Generator

UGTO Assault (Torpedo)
  • 1 Tachyon Drive
  • 1 Ion Engine
  • 5 Standard Armor (1 F, 1 S, 1 P, 1 A 1full)
  • 1 Anti-fighter Beam (full)
  • 4 Proton Torpedo (2 FS, 2 FP)
  • 1 Proton Torpedo (ASP)
  • 2 ECM
  • 1 Auxiliary Shield Generator

K'luth Mosquito (Beam)
  • 1 Anti-Matter Jump Drive
  • 1 Psionic Inference Engine
  • 4 Organic Armor (1 F, 1 S, 1 P, 1 A), 1 Chitinous (full)
  • 1 Cloak
  • 1 Anti-fighter Beam (full)
  • 1 ELF Beam (FSP)
  • 2 Disruptor (FS FP)
  • 2 Disruptor (F)

Frigate

ICC M-47L/M-S Sniper (EWAR, Missle, Cannon)
  • 1 Tachyon Drive
  • 1 Ion Engine, 1 Proton Fusion Engine
  • 4 Active Shields (1 F, 1 P, 1 S, 1 A)
  • 1 Composite Armor (F)
  • 1 Pulse Shield
  • 1 Anti-fighter Beam
  • 6 Skirmish Missiles
  • 4 Heavy Gauss Gun (2 FP, 2 FS)
  • 5 ECM
  • 3 Auxiliary Fusion Generator

UGTO ST-16 Interceptor (Cannon)
  • 1 Tachyon Drive
  • 2 Ion Engines
  • 2 Albative Armor (1F, 1A) 5 Standard Armor (1 F, 1 P, 1 S, 1 A, 1full )
  • 1 Flux Wave
  • 1 Anti-fighter Beam
  • 2 Heavy Particle Cannon (2 FPS)
  • 1 Particle Cannon (F)
  • 2 ECM
  • 1 Auxiliary Power Generator

K'luth Lamprey (Beam, Torpedo)
  • 1 Antimatter Jump Drive
  • 2 Psionic Inference Engine
  • 2 Chitionous Armor (2 F), 4 Organic Armor (1 F, 1 P, 1 S, 1 A )
  • 1 Cloak
  • 1 AHR
  • 1 Anti-fighter Beam
  • 1 Assault Disruptor (F)
  • 2 ELF Beams (1 FP, 1 FS)
  • 6 AM Torpedoes (dual arcs)
  • 2 AM Torpedoes (F)

Destroyer

ICC M-194 Rapid Assault (Beam, Cannon, Torpedo)
  • 1 Tachyon Drive
  • 2 Proton Fusion Engines
  • 5 Composite Armor (2 F, 1 P, 1 S, 1 A)
  • 4 Active Shields (1 F, 1 P, 1 S, 1 A)
  • 1 Pulse Shield
  • 2 Anti-fighter Beam
  • 1 Heavy Chemical Laser (F)
  • 4 Standard Chemical Laser (2 FP, 2 FS)
  • 4 Heavy Railgun (3 FPS, 1 APS)
  • 6 Fusion Torpedo (3 FP, 3 FS)
  • 4 Fusion Torpedo (F)
  • 3 Auxiliary Fusion Generator

ICC M-190L Patrol (Beam, Cannon)
  • 1 Tachyon Drive
  • 2 Ion Engines
  • 4 Active Shields
  • 5 Composite Armor
  • 1 Pulse Shield
  • 2 Anti-fighter Beams
  • 2 Chemical Laser
  • 3 Heavy Railgun
  • 1 Railgun
  • 2 Auxiliary Shield Generators

ICC M-190L/T Combat (Torpedo, Cannon)
  • 1 Tachyon Drive
  • 2 Ion Engines
  • 4 Active Shields
  • 4 Composite Armor
  • 1 Pulse Shield
  • 2 Anti-fighter Beams (full)
  • 2 Chemical Laser (dual arcs)
  • 4 Fusion Torpedo (dual arcs)
  • 6 Fusion Torpedo (single arc)
  • 3 Heavy Railgun
  • 4 Railgun
  • 2 Auxiliary Shield Generators

UGTO ST-22 Gunboat (Cannon)
  • 1 Tachyon Drive
  • 2 Ion Engines
  • 4 Albative Armor (1 F, 1 P, 1 S, 1 A), 4 Standard Armor (1 F, 1 P, 1 S, 1 A, 1 full)
  • 1 Flux Wave
  • 2 Anti-fighter Beams (full)
  • 2 Standard Chemical Laser (1 FP, 1 FS)
  • 2 Heavy Particle Cannon (2 FPS)
  • 3 Particle Cannon (1 FPA, 1 FSA, 1 APS)
  • 1 Auxiliary Power Generator

UGTO ST-20 Lance (Beam)
  • 1 Tachyon Drive
  • 2 Proton Fusion Engines
  • 6 Standard Armor (2 F, 1 P, 1 S, 1 A, 1 full), 4 Reflective Armor (1 F, 1 P, 1 S, 1 A)
  • 1 Flux Wave
  • 2 Anti-fighter Beam
  • 2 Flux Beam (1 FP, 1 FS)
  • 6 Chemical Laser (3 FP, 3 FS)
  • 1 Auxiliary Power Generator

UGTO ST-24 Assault (Beam, Torpedo)
  • 1 Tachyon Drive
  • 2 Proton Fusion Engines
  • 5 Standard Armor (2 F, 1 P, 1 S, 1 A), 4 Reflective Armor (1 F, 1 P, 1 S, 1 A)
  • 1 Flux Wave
  • 2 Anti-fighter Beam
  • 1 Heavy Chemical Laser (F)
  • 6 Standard Chemical Laser (2 FP, 2 FS)
  • 8 Proton Torpedo (4 FP, 4 FS)
  • 2 Auxiliary Power Generator

Cruiser

ICC M-240M Missile (Missle)
  • 1 Tachyon Drive
  • 2 Ion Engines, 1 Atomic Fusion Engine
  • 4 Active Shields (1 F, 1 P, 1 S, 1 A)
  • 5 Composite Armor (1 F, 1 P, 1 S, 2 full)
  • 1 Pulse Shield
  • 2 Anti-fighter Beam
  • 1 Anti-missle Beam (1 FPS)
  • 10 Skirmish Missiles
  • 1 ECM
  • 3 Auxiliary Fusion Generator

ICC M-230L/T Heavy (Cannon, Torpedo)
  • 1 Tachyon Drive
  • 2 Ion Engines, 1 Proton Fusion Engine
  • 4 Active Shields (1 F, 1 S, 1 P, 1 A)
  • 5 Composite Armor (1 F, 1 S, 1 P, 1 A, 1 F)
  • 1 Pulse Shield
  • 2 Anti-fighter Beams (full)
  • 1 Anti-missle Beam (1 FPS)
  • 4 Heavy Railgun (2 FPS, 2 APS)
  • 10 Fusion Torpedo (2 FS, 2 FP, 2 AP, 2 AS, 2 PS)
  • 2 Core Torpedo (2 PS)
  • 1 ECCM
  • 3 Auxiliary Shield Generators

ICC M-239A/L-M Strike (Beam, Cannon, Missle)
  • 1 Tachyon Drive
  • 2 Proton Fusion Engines, 1 Atomic Fusion Engine
  • 4 Skrimish Shields (1 F, 1 P, 1 S, 1 A), 4 Active Shields (1 F, 1 P, 1 S, 1 A)
  • 1 Composite Armor (1 full)
  • 1 Pulse Shield
  • 2 Anti-fighter Beams (full)
  • 1 Anti-missle Beam
  • 2 Heavy Chemical Laser (1 FP, 1 FS)
  • 1 Heavy Chemical Laser (F)
  • 4 Heavy Rail Gun (2 FPS, 1 FPA, 1 FSA)
  • 1 Ion Cannon (FPS)
  • 8 Strike Missiles
  • 4 Auxiliary Fusion Generator

K'luth Parasite (Beam)
  • 1 Antimatter Jump Drive
  • 3 Psionic Inference Engine
  • 7 Chitinous (2 F, 1 P, 2 S, 2full), 3 Organic Armor (1 F, 1 P, 1 S, 1 A)
  • 1 Cloaking Device
  • 1 AHR
  • 2 Anti-fighter Beams (full)
  • 1 Anti-missle Beam
  • 2 Assault Disruptor (1 FP, 1 FS)
  • 1 Assault Disruptor (F)
  • 2 ELF Beams (1 FP, 1 FS)
  • 1 Auxiliary Power Generator

K'luth Clavate (Bomber, EWAR)
  • 1 Antimatter Jump Drive
  • 2 Antimatter Engines, 1 Psionic Inference Engine
  • 7 Organic Armor (2 F, 1 P, 1 S, 2 A, 1 full)
  • 1 Cloaking Device
  • 1 AHR
  • 4 TK Bomb
  • 2 Anti-fighter Beams (full)
  • 1 Anti-missle Beam (1 FPS)
  • 1 Anti-missle Beam (F)
  • 1 Scanner
  • 4 ECM
  • 2 Auxiliary Power Generator

Dreadnaught

ICC M-412L/N Flagship (Command, Cannon)
  • 1 Tachyon Drive
  • 1 Wormhole Generator
  • 4 Ion Engine
  • 4 Composite Armor (1 F, 1 P, 1 S, 1 A)
  • 4 Active Shields (1 F, 1 P, 1 S, 1 A)
  • 1 Pulse Shield
  • 2 Anti-fighter Beams (full)
  • 2 Anti-missle Beams (2 FPS)
  • 3 Heavy Railgun (1 FPS, 1 FPA, 1 FSA)
  • 4 Heavy Railgun (1 FP, 1 FS, 1 AP, 1 AS)
  • 3 Ion Cannon (3 PS)
  • 2 Command Modules
  • 1 Build Drone
  • 1 ECCM
  • 3 Auxiliary Fusion Generator

ICC M-307M Missile (Missle)
  • 1 Tachyon Drive
  • 3 Ion Engine, 1 Atomic Fusion Engine
  • 4 Composite Armor (1 F, 1 P, 1 S, 1 full)
  • 4 Active Shields (1 F, 1 P, 1 S, 1 A)
  • 1 Pulse Shield
  • 2 Anti-fighter Beams (full)
  • 2 Anti-missle Beams (2 FPS)
  • 12 Skirmish Missiles
  • 2 ECM
  • 3 Auxiliary Fusion Generator

ICC M-400L Combat (Cannon)
  • 1 Tachyon Drive
  • 4 Ion Engines
  • 5 Composite Armor
  • 4 Active Shields (1 F, 1 P, 1 S, 1 A)
  • 1 Pulse Shield
  • 2 Anti-fighter Beams
  • 2 Anti-missle Beams (full)
  • 4 Ion Cannon (2 FP, 2 FS)
  • 2 Heavy Railgun (FPS)
  • 3 Heavy Railgun (1 FP, 1 FS, 1 PS)
  • 1 ECCM
  • 3 Auxiliary Fusion Generator

ICC M-412L/M Line (Cannons, Missile)
  • 1 Tachyon Drive
  • 3 Ion Engines, 1 Atomic Fusion Engine
  • 3 Composite Armor
  • 4 Active Shields (1 F, 1 P, 1 S, 1 A)
  • 1 Pulse Shield
  • 2 Anti-fighter Beams
  • 2 Anti-missle Beams (full)
  • 3 Heavy Railgun (FPS)
  • 3 Heavy Railgun (1 FS, 1 FP, 1 FA)
  • 3 Ion Cannon (1 FS, 1 FP, 1 PS)
  • 6 Strike Missiles
  • 1 ECCM
  • 3 Auxiliary Fusion Generator

ICC M-306T Torpedo (Torpedo)
  • 1 Tachyon Drive
  • 3 Ion Engines, 1 Proton Fusion Engine
  • 5 Composite Armor (1 F, 1 P, 1 S, 1 A, 1 full)
  • 4 Active Shields (1 F, 1 P, 1 S, 1 A)
  • 1 Pulse Shield
  • 2 Anti-fighter Beams
  • 2 Anti-missle Beams (2 FPS)
  • 2 Variance Torpedo (1 FPA, 1 FSA)
  • 2 Variance Torpedo (1 FP, 1 FS)
  • 3 Fusion Torpedo (1 FPS, 1 FPA, 1 FSA)
  • 10 Fusion Torpedo (3 FP, 3 FS, 2 AP, 2 AS)
  • 1 ECCM
  • 3 Auxiliary Fusion Generator

UGTO ST-119 Citadel (Command, Torpedo)
  • 1 Tachyon Drive
  • 1 Wormhole Generator
  • 3 Ion Engine, 1 Proton Fusion Engine
  • 8 Standard Armor (2 F, 2 P, 2 S, 2 A)
  • 1 Flux Wave
  • 2 Anti-fighter Beams
  • 2 Anti-missle Beams (FPS)
  • 3 Heavy Particle Cannon (1 FPS, 1 FPA, 1 FSA)
  • 4 Heavy Particle Cannon (1 FP, 1 FS, 1 AP, 1 AS)
  • 3 Quantum Singularity Torpedo (1 F, 1 FP, 1 FS)
  • 2 Command Module
  • 1 Build Drones
  • 1 ECCM
  • 2 Auxiliary Fusion Generator

UGTO ST-125 Elite Assault (Beam, Torpedo, Escort)
  • 1 Tachyon Drive
  • 3 Proton Fusion Engines, 1 Ion Engine
  • 5 Standard Armor (2 F, 1 P, 1 S, 1 A), 4 Reflective Armor (1 F, 1 P, 1 S, 1 A)
  • 1 Flux Wave
  • 3 Anti-fighter Beams
  • 3 Anti-missle Beams (FPS)
  • 6 Anti-missle Beams (3 FP, 3 FS)
  • 4 Heavy Chemical Laser (2 FP, 2 FS)
  • 4 Flux Beam (3 FP, 3 FS)
  • 2 Quantum Singularity Torpedo (1 FP, 1 FS)
  • 12 Proton Torpedo (6 FP, 6 FS)
  • 1 Scanner
  • 3 Auxiliary Reactor

UGTO ST-112 Agincourt Supercarrier (Carrier)
  • 1 Tachyon Drive
  • 3 Ion Engine, 1 Atomic Fusion Engine
  • 8 Standard Armor (2 F, 2 P, 2 S, 2 A)
  • 12 Fighter Bay
  • 1 Flux Wave
  • 2 Anti-fighter Beams
  • 4 Anti-missle Beams (2 FPS, 1 FPA, 1 FSA)
  • 1 Scanner
  • 2 ECCM
  • 2 Auxiliary Reactor

I added Core Weapon into the ships with the following specification:
  • Cruiser: tier 1 = 3 core, tier 2 = 2 core, tier 3 = 1 core
  • Dreadnaught : tier 1 = 4 core, tier 2 = 3 core, tier 3 = 2 core

The first idea is to clarify that higher tier ships have more gadgets but are worse than lower tiers at the same role. We expect the EAD – control by the CM – to be the general ship which cares multiple tasks during the battle, but it can’t be more excellent than any sole purpose ship. The second idea is to make 1.700 The Rise of Cruiser. Honestly, slow down speed/acceleration of dreadnaught and even nearly immobile station isn’t enough to pursue players to choose cruiser. The only was is to make cruiser much more powerful. The apperance of the current Strike Cruiser has proved us that core weapon is suitable with cruiser.
As a result of adding core weapons, I also adjust some other gadgets as I guess they will affect too. It's just an assumption after all. It's up to you and Walrus.

Besides I have new 2 wishes for 1.700:
  1. Remove Death Beam away from MI. Make it a combany bomb - when hits the planet, it spreads 64 elite MI infantry onto the planet. This special projectile not only allows players to PD it when they do care for the planet, but also gives MI a chance to successfully capture planets in Sagi. I don’t know the maximum number of infantry that a planet can hold at one moment, but that the idea. Whatsoever, we’re sick to the utmost with such cursing beam on that giant emirald spaceship. QQ is the main role of Longhead?
  2. Make pirate an unlockable faction for player. A dread for pirate. The unfleet players have waited for this faction for a long time. Even if this faction has one and only ship per class (and it’s tier 3 as a result), it’s still joyful to play as a pirate.

Continue the game, shall we?
As I mention about the new core weapon, I’m thinking about the K’Luth torpedo & beam. It’s a tier 2, so it may have 3 Neutronium Torpedo (if you agree with the my aforementioned ideas). As I think of Pirate, I also figure out both of Nautilus and Node will be tier 3 stations. Nautilus will be Command, Fighter and Cannon; Node will be Command, Beam and Torpedo.
[ This Message was edited by: chlorophyll on 2013-01-05 14:36 ]
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Iwancoppa
Fleet Admiral

Joined: November 15, 2008
Posts: 709
Posted: 2013-01-05 15:29   
carrier E-war cruiser. Oooooooh yeeeeaaaah.


I'm hoping that the tier 3 ships, while multi-capable, are not as good as tier 1 ships at specific roles...
[ This Message was edited by: iwancoppa on 2013-01-05 15:43 ]
_________________


Princess Luna
Captain

Joined: July 25, 2012
Posts: 24
From: Canterlot Castle
Posted: 2013-01-05 17:22   
And what is to come of the Mighty Stations? to get a worthwhile dread is now CM...so are a few more ranks going to be added to spawn the far more usefull stations? SS would be insane as it can do so many rolls with its Scanner,missles,beams,QST,and its evenmore so dominate ablity of Reloaddrones and Repair Fields....

And the Battle Station. 8QST huge beam loadout and ECCM to boot

The CS is another monster, with 8 fighters ECCM beams and QST again...
AND THEN build drones for plats/planets....will there requirements all become ungodly due to the new change?
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