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[FAQ
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 Author Cloaking update...
Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black


Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3820
From: LobsterTown
Posted: 2012-02-10 00:48   
Quote:

On 2012-02-09 09:42, Gejaheline wrote:

It WOULD, however, demonstrate to K'luth players how frustrating it can be to guess where the enemy at a given moment.

It also makes cloak, once again, perfect, which just encourages people to cruise around in invisible dreads rather than using smaller, ostensibly stealthier, ships.

And I'll spare you the wall of text on why submarine combat rarely involves two groups of blind combatants groping for an invisible, unhittable enemy.




Short story, Gej. Workable or not?


Anyway I know what sub warfare is all about. What I meant to reference was the fact that subs have to find each other. And in some cases, subs also have to locate surface targets if there are other factors in place (like the sub travelling below a thermal layer, or thermocline. Or if the surface ship is running a prairie/masker or doing a sprint/drift, or even bad weather. Too many variables.






[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2012-02-10 00:56 ]
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy


Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
Posted: 2012-02-10 09:52   
Quote:

On 2012-02-10 00:48, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:

Short story, Gej. Workable or not?




I'm not going to presume to be the word of god on this, but in my considered opinion: No.

As far as I'm aware there are two main reasons behind wanting to look at cloak:

1: Cloak should require the player to think about whether it's a good idea or not to use cloak. As cloak is NOW, you're basically either shooting, jumping, or cloaked. You've managed to address this one by reducing your situational awareness when cloaked.

2: The more important one: The enemy should be able to do something about your cloak. If they know you're there and you're stupid enough to think you're safe, they should be able to slap a red diamond on you and kill you. Your idea is the opposite of this, making them totally invulnerable.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black


Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3820
From: LobsterTown
Posted: 2012-02-11 11:32   
Quote:

On 2012-02-10 09:52, Gejaheline wrote:

2: The more important one: The enemy should be able to do something about your cloak. If they know you're there and you're stupid enough to think you're safe, they should be able to slap a red diamond on you and kill you. Your idea is the opposite of this, making them totally invulnerable.




Point noted.

However, if by being cloaked, you face the same disadvantage as the human players do (ie, situational awareness, and your ability to shoot/hurt them), then doesn't that already take away a lot of the current advantage of cloak, as well as the need for a EW counterbalance?





Well, the only other suggestion I have is a variation of this.

Dump the phase cloak idea.
Also, dump the cloak energy vs Sig idea that beta is testing.

Revert to the current cloak model where pinging works. But give cloak a major disadvantage in terms of limited visibility. What I mean is that, when a ship cloaks, whether or not he can see uncloaked enemy ships will be determined by a certain formula that takes into account distance and sig, as well as an arbitrary base number.

Let's take a base number of 50.


Eg: Visibility = 50 - (Dist/Sig)
A return value of anything above 0, and the ship can be seen. Anything below 0, and the ship can't be seen.

So, ECCM activity in the area actually works for and against human defenders in that, they can detect cloaked ships, but also raise their chance of being detected by cloaked ships.

Conversely, cloaked ships using ECM may lower their base sig and speed up their sig drop, but will also increase their blindness at the same time.

Trade off. Sub warfare style. But pls don't go into actual semantics. (I'm aware that the slower and quieter a sub goes, the more he can hear and the harder it is to detect him.)


This of course, can and might have to be processed client side as the effect is only apparent to the cloaked player's ship itself.



Let's take some examples:
You are cloaked.

2 enemy ships at 600 Gus and having a sig of 18 and 8 respectively would have return values of:
Visibility = 50 - (Dist/Sig)

Ship A = 50 - (600/18) = 16.67
Ship B = 50 - (600/8) = -25

Ship B can't be seen by the cloaked ship while Ship A will be visible.
At that sig level, Ship B will only be visible once the cloaked ship gets under 400 Gus.






[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2012-02-11 12:28 ]

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BLADERUNNER2019
Chief Marshal

Joined: December 18, 2010
Posts: 99
Posted: 2012-02-11 18:01   
the new energy drain on siphon while it is cloaked renders the ship useless for combat...how can u fight with only one alpha...enemies will get bored waiting for siphons to recharge energy..lose/lose situation unless more boredom is the goal.
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Pantheon
Marshal
Palestar


Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1698
Posted: 2012-02-11 20:20   
A Siphon can fly at 7.5 Gu/s and gain energy. This is without any additional ECM in the area.

Currently looking at significantly lowering the cost of running ECM and increasing the cost of ECCM.

Would people feel much better if cloak energy usage was vastly less when out of combat, but when in combat, it's much greater (ie, what it is now). This would mean that your first strike ability isn't greatly nerfed, when you enter combat the energy usage is roughly where it is now (maybe higher)?
[ This Message was edited by: Pantheon on 2012-02-11 20:24 ]
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Forger of Destiny
Chief Marshal
We Kick Arse


Joined: October 10, 2009
Posts: 826
Posted: 2012-02-11 22:25   
Quote:

On 2012-02-11 20:20, Pantheon wrote:
A Siphon can fly at 7.5 Gu/s and gain energy. This is without any additional ECM in the area.

Currently looking at significantly lowering the cost of running ECM and increasing the cost of ECCM.

Would people feel much better if cloak energy usage was vastly less when out of combat, but when in combat, it's much greater (ie, what it is now). This would mean that your first strike ability isn't greatly nerfed, when you enter combat the energy usage is roughly where it is now (maybe higher)?
[ This Message was edited by: Pantheon on 2012-02-11 20:24 ]



+1, and higher usage when in combat pls
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black


Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3820
From: LobsterTown
Posted: 2012-02-11 22:57   
Quote:

On 2012-02-11 20:20, Pantheon wrote:
A Siphon can fly at 7.5 Gu/s and gain energy. This is without any additional ECM in the area.

Currently looking at significantly lowering the cost of running ECM and increasing the cost of ECCM.

Would people feel much better if cloak energy usage was vastly less when out of combat, but when in combat, it's much greater (ie, what it is now). This would mean that your first strike ability isn't greatly nerfed, when you enter combat the energy usage is roughly where it is now (maybe higher)?
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2012-02-11 23:00 ]




Would this mean employing the combat timer in the same way Def Mode will be for ICC?

ie: Cloak energy usage is low until the ship fires or gets hit, then energy usage will be higher for until 30 sec has elapsed w/o the ship firing or getting hit?


If so, I say why not? Let's try it out in beta.








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Pantheon
Marshal
Palestar


Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1698
Posted: 2012-02-11 23:51   
Correct. My alpha server is borked at the moment (compiler's being a twit), but will look at making the code changes for testing tomorrow.
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Pantheon
Marshal
Palestar


Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1698
Posted: 2012-02-12 14:32   
I've submitted a 25% energy usage decrease when out of combat to cloak. The code change will be in beta whenever it updates (I cannot kick off a manual build currently).
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal

Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1184
Posted: 2012-02-13 10:03   
Quote:
On 2012-02-11 20:20, Pantheon wrote:
Currently looking at significantly lowering the cost of running ECM and increasing the cost of ECCM.


You don't have to. AI is everywhere and they always have ECCM on.
Increase ECM range until it is as long as ECCM is shall be better. I don't know how far Narrowhead ECM effects but I consider it's a tactic to work in group.
Quote:
On 2012-02-11 20:20, Pantheon wrote:
Would people feel much better if cloak energy usage was vastly less when out of combat, but when in combat, it's much greater (ie, what it is now). This would mean that your first strike ability isn't greatly nerfed, when you enter combat the energy usage is roughly where it is now (maybe higher)?


I would feel much better if cloak energy usage is vastly less when in combat. Cause when a luth has to cloak during combat, the ship itself should be low on energy enough. Basically, when energy usage during combat is rough, Luth simply jump then cloak. Then, energy usage is not a matter since nobody traces after Luth.
Besides, Luth jump has fast cooldown. I don't really mind to jump 2nd times.

If you really want a timer for cloak, I suggest limit of cloaking: the longest time a luth can cloak is as long as its jump drives recharges. With this timer, you don't need to put any energy penalty at all but still force Luth to think carefully before approaching.
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light


Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
Posted: 2012-02-14 19:07   
Quote:


Would people feel much better if cloak energy usage was vastly less when out of combat, but when in combat, it's much greater (ie, what it is now). This would mean that your first strike ability isn't greatly nerfed, when you enter combat the energy usage is roughly where it is now (maybe higher)?
[ This Message was edited by: Defiance{CM7} on 2012-02-14 19:18 ]




so... kluth have total invisibility before and 30 seconds after attacking you...

no thanks. ill keep ping.


tracking kluth ships already doesnt last 30 seconds in mv. And you can ping him there.

I dont see where this will leave a worthwhile window for ewar to be of any meaningful affect in battle.

unless you want the ship to uncloak at 0 energy... i unno.


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Pantheon
Marshal
Palestar


Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1698
Posted: 2012-02-14 19:22   
It's not perfect at any period - it only uses less energy when out of combat (25% less to be precise). I'd encourage people to try this in beta before passing judgement.
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light


Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
Posted: 2012-02-14 20:09   
i missed your later post about the 25%. sorry
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339,144

Rebel Retribution
Grand Admiral

Joined: January 23, 2006
Posts: 41
From: Hillsboro, OR
Posted: 2012-02-15 06:41   
so should kluth be spending most of their time cloaked, or uncloaked?

i.e. when not actively attacking or defending shouldn't they be visible?

[ This Message was edited by: Line of Eld on 2012-02-15 06:42 ]
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Silent Threat { Vier }
Marshal
Anarchy's End


Joined: August 03, 2004
Posts: 278
From: Waiting...watching...
Posted: 2012-02-15 22:25   
Quote:

On 2012-02-14 19:22, Pantheon wrote:
It's not perfect at any period - it only uses less energy when out of combat (25% less to be precise). I'd encourage people to try this in beta before passing judgement.




Well this should help encourage hit and run tactics.
As K'luth It will have us take more care that our first strike is successful. When all is said and done with this patch I just want K'luth to still be able to have that first strike with enough energy to make it work. If that is the case then I'll be happy.
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